Is Testosterone More Harmful Than Dht On The Frontal Scalp And Hairline?

Selb

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Yes you are right. Im on dutasteride almost 2 years, and im losing ground on my head. I have got a lot of hairs on my back/shoulders/arms in the 2 years on using dutasteride. It must be the test that is destroying my hair
So a few things you can try in addition to oral dutasteride. Topical lipsomal dutasteride and a topical AR blocker like RU or CB. If you’re not maintaining for real. I would show this forum pictures to make sure though since we can sometimes believe something despite the reality
 

whatevr

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All androgens are in high and excessive amounts in balding follicles, DHT is just the consequence of that. Even Testosterone is high and maybe its precursors as well.

Inhibiting AR and 5-AR are therefore secondary targets. Ideally we want to lower androgen synthesis in the follicle in the first place. Seviteronel is the nuclear way to do that, but there is probably a smarter way.
 

Selb

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All androgens are in high and excessive amounts in balding follicles, DHT is just the consequence of that. Even Testosterone is high and maybe its precursors as well.

Inhibiting AR and 5-AR are therefore secondary targets. Ideally we want to lower androgen synthesis in the follicle in the first place. Seviteronel is the nuclear way to do that, but there is probably a smarter way.
Doesn’t seviteronel also block estrogen?
 

whatevr

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Doesn’t seviteronel also block estrogen?

It doesn't matter. You're balding due to excessively high androgens, not due to lack of estrogen. Consider that if we have excessive testosterone in the HF, we likely have excessive estrogen as well (relative to a non-balding person) since E is made from T.

The primary goal is to normalize the amount of androgens in the follicle. Estrogen is overrated - if you don't take care of androgens, you have to use insanely high doses of topical estrogen to see any result, and even then it only works by suppressing androgens systemically.

Estrogen is primarily used for stimulating regrowth. For that purpose, you can supply it exogenously. But stopping androgens is #1.
 

Pigeon

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I tried every way to restart before hopping on TRT and I've run HCG along TRT for fertility reason and backfilling the pathways. I can guarantee you that there are few men that are able to run the compound for a long time without getting sides. I hope you will be one, but I never met anyone getting well on HCG monotherapy.
HCG offset the ratio between testosterone to E2 in favor of the latter, hence the reason why many have sides on it.
If you give your body bio-identical T, it knows how to handle it and how to aromatise it and 5-a reduce it, unless you have genetic aromatase or 5-ar deficiency, which is pretty rare.

PFS is a complete different story. It's not a lack of androgens, that's called hypogonadism (primary, secondary or tertiary) and that's why I got well when I introduced back the androgens in my body. It's not really well understood yet, but we could talk about PFS when there's an induced and permanent 5-ar deficiency or an induced androgen resistance, that weren't there before the use of 5-ar inhibitors.
The vast majority of people on propecia help didn't get a proper TRT protocol and used AIs with their exogenous T, hence why they're there complaining about their alleged PFS.

And want to reiterate the importance of DHT. If anyone says it's a "worthless" hormone, he's a pure idiot and probably too emotionally invested in his hair regimen.
 
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nick123

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I can also vouch that I've been on dutasteride for years and the majority of my loss recently has been on my hairline and on the front of my scalp whereas my crown is still pretty much dense.
 
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whatevr

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I can also vouch that I've been on dutasteride for years and the majority of my loss recently has been on my hairline and on the front of my scalp whereas my crown is still pretty much dense.

Of course. There is on average 5 times as much testosterone in the balding follicle relative to it's counterbalancing isomer and natural antiandrogen - epitestosterone. Dutasteride only makes this even worse... That's why 5-AR is far from an ideal solution.
 

Xander94

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What about the theory that you only need to reduce DHT below a threshold ?
 

whatevr

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What about the theory that you only need to reduce DHT below a threshold ?

Clearly that theory isn't true for many people.

I think we need to educate people on the fact the archaic theory of "lol sensitivity to DHT" is false and that what we are dealing with is essentially a hormonal imbalance (primarily in the hair follicle) involving the entire cascade of androgen synthesis, including testosterone and possibly even higher. It's just a shame that precursors such as DHEA, androstenedione and others all the way up to cholesterol weren't measured, then we would know where the problem begins.

Using androgen synthesis inhibitors would be a better way to approach this problem, but these are quite problematic, side-effect wise, at least the way currently work (via direct enzyme inhibition). I think what needs to be determined is which pathways implicated in androgen synthesis are upregulated and see if some kind of highly specific peptide can be developed to target that.
 

Xander94

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Clearly that theory isn't true for many people.

I think we need to educate people on the fact the archaic theory of "lol sensitivity to DHT" is false and that what we are dealing with is essentially a hormonal imbalance (primarily in the hair follicle) involving the entire cascade of androgen synthesis, including testosterone and possibly even higher. It's just a shame that precursors such as DHEA, androstenedione and others all the way up to cholesterol weren't measured, then we would know where the problem begins.

Using androgen synthesis inhibitors would be a better way to approach this problem, but these are quite problematic, side-effect wise, at least the way currently work (via direct enzyme inhibition). I think what needs to be determined is which pathways implicated in androgen synthesis are upregulated and see if some kind of highly specific peptide can be developed to target that.
what about oral finasteride working better than topical ? (oral finasteride inhibits scalph dht much less than the topical version). I think a little bit dht is required for proliferation igf1 ?
 
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Canuto

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What about the theory that you only need to reduce DHT below a threshold ?

Prepubescent boys and women in general have a low amount of androgens and a full head of hair.
If you would need to keep androgens at 0 in order to keep hair loss at bay, men would have started losing hairs way before puberty.
We know that's not the case.
 

Selb

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Prepubescent boys and women in general have a low amount of androgens and a full head of hair.
If you would need to keep androgens at 0 in order to keep hair loss at bay, men would have started losing hairs way before puberty.
We know that's not the case.
But why does AR sensitivity change as men and women grow older?
 

whatevr

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But why does AR sensitivity change as men and women grow older?

It doesn't, not to a point where it would matter. This is what happens:

1603866682604.png


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They are primarily talking about ratio in serum however, and here the normal ratio in adulthood is around 1. Balding people have a different problem however:

1603866848061.png


We have approximately 5 times more testosterone relative to its counterbalancing anti-androgen, epitestosterone, and this is enough to account for all of the traits of androgenic alopecia. No need for any kind of mythical androgen sensitivity when there is such a hormonal imbalance that you can actually measure.
 

Armando Jose

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Yes you are right. Im on dutasteride almost 2 years, and im losing ground on my head. I have got a lot of hairs on my back/shoulders/arms in the 2 years on using dutasteride. It must be the test that is destroying my hair
In your regime: Finastride
 

DogoDiLaurentiis

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That's the theory of some thricologists in Italy. They always stated in articles and publications that AR are more sensible to testosterone than DHT on the hairline (you can see it in the diagram they produced).
This thing has never been proven definitely as far as I know, but there are some anecdotal experiences. Derek at MPMD demonstrated it on himself pretty well. His DHT was nuked to pre-puberal levels, yet his hairline got murdered while on dutasteride.

I know I'm starting to sound like an annoying broken record but that doesn't sound like test was the issue at all. Was he at all by chance taking aggressive aromatase inhibitors as well?

If you've kept your hair mostly barring some gradual attrition through out your late teenage years into your twenties, it should not be merely that hormone which has been circulating in your body for all that time which suddenly and completely decimates your hair regardless of where it is. Something else is clearly at play.
 
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Selb

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It doesn't, not to a point where it would matter. This is what happens:

View attachment 149469

View attachment 149470

They are primarily talking about ratio in serum however, and here the normal ratio in adulthood is around 1. Balding people have a different problem however:

View attachment 149471

We have approximately 5 times more testosterone relative to its counterbalancing anti-androgen, epitestosterone, and this is enough to account for all of the traits of androgenic alopecia. No need for any kind of mythical androgen sensitivity when there is such a hormonal imbalance that you can actually measure.
Interesting. I wonder why this hasn’t been used to diagnose balding early... according to this if you try HRT with epitest would that solve this imbalance?
 

DogoDiLaurentiis

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It doesn't, not to a point where it would matter. This is what happens:

View attachment 149469

View attachment 149470

They are primarily talking about ratio in serum however, and here the normal ratio in adulthood is around 1. Balding people have a different problem however:

View attachment 149471

We have approximately 5 times more testosterone relative to its counterbalancing anti-androgen, epitestosterone, and this is enough to account for all of the traits of androgenic alopecia. No need for any kind of mythical androgen sensitivity when there is such a hormonal imbalance that you can actually measure.

Sounds like the logical solution would be to balance it out with estrogen if increasing epitestosterone is not possible, I am myself starting to hypothesize that even though I had a swimmer's physique (thin but good musculature, no gyno) when I was aged 30, that my estrogen was dramatically higher and that was actually the thing that contributed to my hair regrowth after I lost a lot of it in an event which by all accounts looked to be pattern hair loss.

This is kind of what I'm getting at, I think the key for most men will be finding a means by which to balance a hormone like estrogen (mitigating excesses such as weight gain and gyno) with the benefits such as improving skin hydration, vasodilatory (for scalp hair growth) and anti-inflammatory properties improving hair recovery after loss.

Basically, it's not about the testosterone so much as it is about making sure there's a balance of another hormone which facilitates growth and offsets the negatives of test itself.
 

polishkickbuttowski

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It doesn't, not to a point where it would matter. This is what happens:

View attachment 149469

View attachment 149470

They are primarily talking about ratio in serum however, and here the normal ratio in adulthood is around 1. Balding people have a different problem however:

View attachment 149471

We have approximately 5 times more testosterone relative to its counterbalancing anti-androgen, epitestosterone, and this is enough to account for all of the traits of androgenic alopecia. No need for any kind of mythical androgen sensitivity when there is such a hormonal imbalance that you can actually measure.
Do you know why balding people have such a bad T/epiT ratio in their follicles or have any leads on how to counteract it?
 

DogoDiLaurentiis

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Yes you are right. Im on dutasteride almost 2 years, and im losing ground on my head. I have got a lot of hairs on my back/shoulders/arms in the 2 years on using dutasteride. It must be the test that is destroying my hair

I'm sorry but that doesn't sound reasonable at all.
 
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