Is Testosterone More Harmful Than Dht On The Frontal Scalp And Hairline?

[Selb]

Could this explain why some people on finasteride get better results than dutasteride? Since finasteride doesn’t raise test too much compared to dutasteride.

By that logic, if you’re thinning mostly in the front and in the hairline, would it make more sense to hop on finasteride and get an anti test topical? Not sure what’s the safest topical for that though.

 

[Canuto]

Could this explain why some people on finasteride get better results than dutasteride? Since finasteride doesn’t raise test too much compared to dutasteride.

By that logic, if you’re thinning mostly in the front and in the hairline, would it make more sense to hop on finasteride and get an anti test topical? Not sure what’s the safest topical for that though.

That's the theory of some thricologists in Italy. They always stated in articles and publications that AR are more sensible to testosterone than DHT on the hairline (you can see it in the diagram they produced).
This thing has never been proven definitely as far as I know, but there are some anecdotal experiences. Derek at MPMD demonstrated it on himself pretty well. His DHT was nuked to pre-puberal levels, yet his hairline got murdered while on dutasteride.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

The struggle to demarcate the line between testosterone and DHT related to scalp, beard and body hair growth continues.

Why is it in male whites that DHT appears to wreak havoc on the scalp and face (dermatitis, acne, etc.) but in Native Americans, Siberians and many Asians, this sexually dimorphic aspect of hair loss is not apparent or at least much less so a confounding factor?

Shouldn't DHT actually promote most hair growth in mammals? In terms of hair weight in caucasian humans, summing all body and scalp hair, it seems apparent again that females are "hairier" than males in spite of testosterone levels being much higher in males. Baldness and hair loss is one of those few things that basically has to be differentiated by the races but we do seem to see a trend that body hair/beard hair are not particularly compatible with scalp hair growth in whites and other races judging by the amount of body hair. Asians and Native Americans tend to lack body hair among males compared to whites and African Americans.

Why is scalp hair growth so sexually dimorphic among whites but not other races, to the extent that one almost assumes on sites like this one that most of the folks posting are white? This sexually dimorphic aspect appears to be muted in Asians, Siberians, Africans, etc. but hard-wired into caucasians. Does it serve any real purpose or is it some random mutation? We do know that nature is not particularly gracious in terms of allowing male pattern baldness to be addressed in white males, meaning the body is highly resistant to any "improvement" to scalp hair once the balding process has begun.

 

[Canuto]

Why is it in male whites that DHT appears to wreak havoc on the scalp and face (dermatitis, acne, etc.) but in Native Americans, Siberians and many Asians, this sexually dimorphic aspect of hair loss is not apparent or at least much less so a confounding factor?

It's not so simple. I started losing hairs at 18, but never had issues with acne in my life. It depends on local enzymatic activity in tissues . To trigger any androgenic effect in tissues there needs to be 2 factors: a genetic predisposition and a sufficient amount of androgens. If one of the 2 is missing, you don't get any androgenic effect.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Simple or not, allergies to DHT or imbalances, however one wishes to phrase it, cause virtually every plague known to both sexes above the neck and this is generally something that affects male caucasians. There are different types of reductases and they are more prevalent in some tissues than others. I am far from certain that one needs a "genetic" predisposition for negative effects from DHT because this ends up being more or less, a tautology that doesn't inform us any more than just saying, some people react badly to DHT. Circulating levels of DHT also seem to be less important than those present in beard hair and scalp hair where T can still be converted into DHT. This might be why reductase inhibitors are hit and miss for some.

Gene expression appears to be something that can be turned on and off depending upon the hormonal environment related to sex steroids. This is why it is fruitless for us to stamp our feet and claim that we can't have male pattern baldness since none of our fathers, uncles, siblings, or grandfathers suffer from male pattern baldness. It doesn't matter and it doesn't seem to inform treatment at all except for Telogen Effluvium, which is for the most part given way too much credence as the cause of hair loss in any particular case.

 

[Canuto]

I don't really want to go into an in depth discussion on this topic, because it seems you need to do quite a bit of homework first.
I appreciate your frustration, it's the same that many balding men have, but DHT is crucial for some processes in the body.
Do your research and check for example why fighters steroid stack are mostly DHT derivates compounds.
I don't even want to talk about testosterone, which is the gold standard of men well-being, or we will never end this discussion.

At least it seems you know that serum levels of DHT are irrelevant, since it's a paracrine hormone that gets synthesized in tissues and what you see in the blood it's just the leakage. Levels in the prostate are at least 10 fold higher than serum.

Just to give you an example, we have at least 8 years of papers now showing that DHT and androgens in general have no correlation with prostate cancers and they actually started treating men with prostate cancers with high doses of exogenous T to see the outcome.

If your "no genes involved theory" is right, then you have to explain how some people can run trenbolone without losing one hair, while others get their hairs destroyed within a cycle.

 

[Selb]

I don't really want to go into an in depth discussion on this topic, because it seems you need to do quite a bit of homework first.
I appreciate your frustration, it's the same that many balding men have, but DHT is crucial for some processes in the body.
Do your research and check for example why fighters steroid stack are mostly DHT derivates compounds.
I don't even want to talk about testosterone, which is the gold standard of men well-being, or we will never end this discussion.

At least it seems you know that serum levels of DHT are irrelevant, since it's a paracrine hormone that gets synthesized in tissues and what you see in the blood it's just the leakage. Levels in the prostate are at least 10 fold higher than serum.

Just to give you an example, we have at least 8 years of papers now showing that DHT and androgens in general have no correlation with prostate cancers and they actually started treating men with prostate cancers with high doses of exogenous T to see the outcome.

If your "no genes involved theory" is right, then you have to explain how some people can run trenbolone without losing one hair, while others get their hairs destroyed within a cycle.

what’s your regimen/solution for balding?

 

[Canuto]

what’s your regimen/solution for balding?

I got a hair transplant recently that brought me back to NW1, but I'm diffused all over the NW6 area and I'm on TRT to recover from the damages done by finasteride. So I'm gonna start now with a stack of topical CB+CPA+estrogens+progesterone+adenosine and some other ancillaries.
I will report in a couple of months what's the outcome. Next to add would be a home made mesotherapy with dutasteride, but one thing at a time.

 

[Selb]

I got a hair transplant recently that brought me back to NW1, but I'm diffused all over the NW6 area and I'm on TRT to recover from the damages done by finasteride. So I'm gonna start now with a stack of topical CB+CPA+estrogens+progesterone+adenosine and some other ancillaries.
I will report in a couple of months what's the outcome. Next to add would be a home made mesotherapy with dutasteride, but one thing at a time.

Ah man, what did finasteride do? Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with it.

if you do end up getting a good regimen that works please share it! I think some of the veterans to hair loss should make a hyper efficient regimen for balding people based on their experience. Not holding back anything. I think moreplatesmoredates is doing something like that too with himself as a test subject

 

[Canuto]

Ah man, what did finasteride do? Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with it.

if you do end up getting a good regimen that works please share it! I think some of the veterans to hair loss should make a hyper efficient regimen for balding people based on their experience. Not holding back anything. I think moreplatesmoredates is doing something like that too with himself as a test subject

It silenced my HPTA throughout the years and I ended up hypogonadal, despite the healthy lifestyle. It doesn't happen to the majority of people though.
I will report back the outcome of my experiments for sure, as if it's efficient on me that I have a high androgen load on my body at the moment, it will be efficient for a good amount of people.

Derek it's on topical finasteride+RU58841+latanoprost+oral castor oil+dermaneedling. A good protocol, but he's on TRT, so some of the possible sides would be negligible in his case.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I am just throwing things out there I have noticed. Only after removing my beard did my dermatitis clear up so the DHT must have been synthesized by the skin since I was on spironolactone and estrogen. Now for my scalp, I apply estrogel several times daily. It seems to be effective. Of course I seek "sides".

 

[whatevr]

I got a hair transplant recently that brought me back to NW1, but I'm diffused all over the NW6 area and I'm on TRT to recover from the damages done by finasteride. So I'm gonna start now with a stack of topical CB+CPA+estrogens+progesterone+adenosine and some other ancillaries.
I will report in a couple of months what's the outcome. Next to add would be a home made mesotherapy with dutasteride, but one thing at a time.

You should get on HCG, not TRT if you have PFS. I'm doing that now and it's the first thing to give me any hope of coming back to normal in years.

 

[Canuto]

You should get on HCG, not TRT if you have PFS. I'm doing that now and it's the first thing to give me any hope of coming back to normal in years.

I tried every way to restart before hopping on TRT and I've run HCG along TRT for fertility reason and backfilling the pathways. I can guarantee you that there are few men that are able to run the compound for a long time without getting sides. I hope you will be one, but I never met anyone getting well on HCG monotherapy.
HCG offset the ratio between testosterone to E2 in favor of the latter, hence the reason why many have sides on it.
If you give your body bio-identical T, it knows how to handle it and how to aromatise it and 5-a reduce it, unless you have genetic aromatase or 5-ar deficiency, which is pretty rare.

PFS is a complete different story. It's not a lack of androgens, that's called hypogonadism (primary, secondary or tertiary) and that's why I got well when I introduced back the androgens in my body. It's not really well understood yet, but we could talk about PFS when there's an induced and permanent 5-ar deficiency or an induced androgen resistance, that weren't there before the use of 5-ar inhibitors.
The vast majority of people on propecia help didn't get a proper TRT protocol and used AIs with their exogenous T, hence why they're there complaining about their alleged PFS.

 

[whatevr]

I'm aware of the etiology and manifestations of PFS since I have (and had it) for 4 years. Androgen resistance is a good way to describe it, but also obvious lack of 5 alpha reductase activity in various tissues.

My HCG protocol is low dose, 250 IU 3 times weekly. Already very estrogen dominant so I don't have much to lose by using HCG, and in fact since I've been using it I've had less gyno symptoms which indicates some of my 5-AR has indeed returned. But I haven't been on it long enough to know if it will fix me. As far as overall mental well being however, nothing has given me any 'real' results except this.

 

[Canuto]

If you are recovering from it, it could be just lack of androgens due to the negative feedback loop on your HPTA triggered by finasteride. But I guess it's just a matter of terminology, if calling it PFS or not. I call it PFS when the patient doesn't respond to the increase in androgens when dosed properly and with a proper protocol.

I used as a low HCG as 50 IU 3 times weekly, and still gave me sides, despite the testosterone enanthate I was running with it. I hope it's not gonna be your case. The reason why your brain is better on it is due to the effect on pregnenolone and progesterone and the cascade of neurotransmitters synthesized, but the gyno shrinking is due to the androgens running again in tissues, not E2.
I have the highest E2 ever on T and my gyno is the smallest it has ever been.
If you want to target the gyno specifically, you could use topical tamoxifen or raloxifene on the nipples, but a bit will go systemic as everything and I don't like SERMS in general, unless if you have to run them small term.

 

[Canuto]

An interesting study for whoever keep saying that testosterone doesn't miniaturize and that it's all due to DHT:

Testosterone at high concentrations interacts with the human androgen receptor similarly to dihydrotestosterone - PubMed

Testosterone and dihydrotestosterone are believed to exert their androgenic effects by interacting with a single intracellular receptor protein in androgen target tissues. During fetal life, however, testosterone mediates the virilization of the Wolffian ducts into the epididymis, vas deferens...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Our results suggest that the weaker androgenic potency of testosterone compared to that of dihydrotestosterone resides in its weaker interaction with the androgen receptor, most clearly demonstrable as an increase in the dissociation rate of testosterone from the receptor. When present in relatively high concentrations, however, testosterone overcomes this defect by mass action.

It also indicates how you can overcome the lower binding affinity of a molecule to whatever receptor through mass action, which means nothing else than increasing the dose. And that applies to all topical AA.

 

[Selb]

An interesting study for whoever keep saying that testosterone doesn't miniaturize and that it's all due to DHT:

Testosterone at high concentrations interacts with the human androgen receptor similarly to dihydrotestosterone - PubMed

Testosterone and dihydrotestosterone are believed to exert their androgenic effects by interacting with a single intracellular receptor protein in androgen target tissues. During fetal life, however, testosterone mediates the virilization of the Wolffian ducts into the epididymis, vas deferens...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Our results suggest that the weaker androgenic potency of testosterone compared to that of dihydrotestosterone resides in its weaker interaction with the androgen receptor, most clearly demonstrable as an increase in the dissociation rate of testosterone from the receptor. When present in relatively high concentrations, however, testosterone overcomes this defect by mass action.

It also indicates how you can overcome the lower binding affinity of a molecule to whatever receptor through mass action, which means nothing else than increasing the dose. And that applies to all topical AA.

So if you’re still losing ground on an AA, and a blood test reveals high test, could that be it? Or is a blood test still not indicative when you consider AR sensitivity?

 

[Canuto]

So if you’re still losing ground on an AA, and a blood test reveals high test, could that be it? Or is a blood test still not indicative when you consider AR sensitivity?

The latter.

 

[Selb]

The latter.

I guess it would still be a reasonable assumption for why balding would continue even on dutasteride

 

[Pnl]

I guess it would still be a reasonable assumption for why balding would continue even on dutasteride

Yes you are right. Im on dutasteride almost 2 years, and im losing ground on my head. I have got a lot of hairs on my back/shoulders/arms in the 2 years on using dutasteride. It must be the test that is destroying my hair