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Lol, you didn't even answer any of the question. Lol.
If Propecia gets pulled off market, I'll pull a Virginia Beach
- Thread starter clarence-forgotpassword
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When finasteride inhibits 5AR2, less testosterone is able to convert into DHT resulting in an increase in testosterone. This increase in testosterone results in a subsequent increase in estrogen through the aromitization pathway. As far as progesterone goes, you'd likely see an increase due to less of it being converted into 5a-Dihydroprogesterone.
I think this is an exhaustive list of reactions associated with 5AR but there might be something I'm missing:
- Cholestenone → 5α-Cholestanone
- Progesterone → 5α-Dihydroprogesterone
- 3α-Dihydroprogesterone → Allopregnanolone
- 3β-Dihydroprogesterone → Isopregnanolone
- Deoxycorticosterone → 5α-Dihydrodeoxycorticosterone
- Corticosterone → 5α-Dihydrocorticosterone
- Cortisol → 5α-Dihydrocortisol
- Aldosterone → 5α-Dihydroaldosterone
- Androstenedione → 5α-Androstanedione
- Testosterone → 5α-Dihydrotestosterone
- Nandrolone → 5α-Dihydronandrolone
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wow my uncle is on finasteride with no sides (at least he tells me) for 15 years, with a loving family, children, HAIR and probably no idea what an internet forum is while we have people who spend their freetime trying to persuade other people on the internet how dangerous finasteride is.
brutal.
brutal.
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"When finasteride inhibits 5AR2, less testosterone is able to convert into DHT resulting in an increase in testosterone. This increase in testosterone results in a subsequent increase in estrogen through the aromitization pathway. As far as progesterone goes, you'd likely see an increase due to less of it being converted into 5a-Dihydroprogesterone. "
Lol, and you keep repiting the propaganda . You are good copy and pasting wikipedia. for your for your knowledgeknowdelegde is an syntetic steroids, we don't produce it, lol. So you should, at least, delete that when you copy and paste .
Again, there is only a extremly modest increase of 20 % in T , are you applying that all that is convert it into estrogen ? lol.
Did you even bother to check your progesterone levels ? your estrogen levels ?
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What the hell did I just read? Was this supposed to make sense?
Did you want me to compile a list of papers that tell you the exact same thing as a Wikipedia page? It's a useful enough resource to briefly summarize that information. I don't have all day to sit here and pander to you. Feel free to go ahead and read each individual citation on the Wikipedia page for 5AR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5α-Reductase). Seriously man, after I explained all of that are you trying to imply my "knowledgeknowdelegde" about finasteride wasn't adequate to make an informed decision about taking it?
If you read my posting history here I think it's pretty obvious that I don't try and downplay the side effects of finasteride, I base my opinions on peer reviewed research.
Yes, obviously I checked my E2 and progesterone levels. I handle my bloodwork through an endocrinologist. No, I'm not implying all of the testosterone is converted into estrogen, some of it is.
"for your for your knowledgeknowdelegde is an syntetic steroids, we don't produce it, lol. So you should, at least, delete that when you copy and paste ."
Obviously substances such as nandrolone are synthetic androgens, but if you re-read what you sent to me, you asked me "Tell us, in how many reaction 5-alpha reductase is part of it ?". You didn't ask me to specify what reactions were limited to endogenous hormone production, you asked me what all of the reactions involving 5AR were, so I copied the entire list. It's not my fault you didn't word your question properly.
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That's quite a dumb take.
1) The very comment of mine you quoted was LITERALLY 2 lines. LOL.
Also, you also wrote quite a bit.
2) I didn't give up. Yeah I gave up on useless Finasteride, definitely did not give up on the hairloss battle.
Microneedling + Minoxidil is far better and safer without messing with hormones.
Plus I'm awaiting Kintor Pharmaceuticals Pyrilutamide which will do what Finasteride wishes it could.
Nope, I'm very busy at work, when I get home and my social life. I only comment in short bursts if I have time.
Regardless, I don't see why you're trying to move the goal posts, when we already know that quite evidently just from those studies a majority or very large % of people who do get sides, still keep them long term or permanently which is even more scarier.
It's also pretty obvious that the incidence rate is enormously greater than 0.8%
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I think it's concerning that there are some people who experience prolonged side effects after discontinuation of finasteride, and there isn't a clear explanation for why that happens.
You're confusing three things here:
1. The incidence of side effects
2. Of those that experience side effects, what is the incidence of persistent side effects
3. Of those that experience persistent side effects, what is the incidence of side effects that continue to remain persistent?
I'm not moving goal posts. You're making the claim that 40 percent or more of finasteride users experience side effects, which is outlandish and not supported by any medical literature.
The studies you're referring to relate to point number 3 above, and they indicate that people who experience persistent side effects will tend to continue experiencing them. The incidence of people continuing to experience persistent side effects after developing them is not the same thing as the incidence of persistent side effects.
You're making the claim that it's "obvious" that the incidence of persistent side effects is greater than 0.8%, but there isn't a single study in existence that supports that claim.
If you don't want to listen to me, that's fine, but know that even the researchers associated with the PFS foundation who conducted the same studies you're citing don't come to the conclusions that you do.
The researcher responsible for the studies you posted, Dr. Michael S. Irwig: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21418145/
"While this study serves an important purpose to document a risk of persistent sexual adverse events with finasteride for MPHL, the true incidence of these events is unknown as this is a post hoc approach. According to the randomized controlled trials by GlaxoSmithKline and Merck, the actual number of subjects experiencing adverse sexual events, in either the treatment or placebo groups, was <8% and <3%, respectively [1,3]. Assuming that the vast majority of these events resolved, the incidence of persistent sexual events in finasteride users would probably be less than 1%. Nonetheless, it is the persistence of these sexual side effects that is the most concerning finding. The looming question for all the subjects is whether their sexual function will ever recover."
"Our study has several limitations. Most importantly, the retrospective nature of this study does not allow us to estimate what percentage of prospective finasteride users would develop persistent sexual side effects. A second limitation is selection bias in which those subjects experiencing more severe side effects, or those for whom sexuality is a more significant aspect of their life, would be more likely to participate in a study looking at sexual parameters. Another limitation is recall bias, in which subjects may not have remembered certain details such as the exact month when they started finasteride. Furthermore, no serum hormone levels were measured."
The most recent information that the PFS foundation put forward on their website: https://www.pfsfoundation.org/frequently-asked-questions/
"What’s certain is that a subset of men who take finasteride develop PFS. According to a 2017 study published in PeerJ and titled Persistent erectile dysfunction in men exposed to the 5α-reductase inhibitors finasteride or dutasteride, 1.2% of young men (defined as those 16 to 42 years old) who took finasteride for 206 days or longer, and had no prior history of sexual dysfunction, developed persistent erectile dysfunction (PED) that lasted an average of 4.2 years after quitting the drug. The study also showed that the longer men are on finasteride, the more likely they are to develop PED. Overall, men who take finasteride for at least 205 days are nearly five times more likely to develop PED than men who take it for less than 205 days. For symptoms other than PED, no similar statistical analyses involving critical masses of patient records have yet been published."
From the same study they cite in their FAQ:
Among men with 5α-RI exposure, 167 of 11,909 (1.4%) developed PED (persistence median 1,348 days after stopping 5α-RI, interquartile range (IQR) 631.5–2320.5 days); the multivariable model predicting PED had four variables: prostate disease, duration of 5α-RI exposure, age, and nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) use. Of 530 men with new ED, 167 (31.5%) had new PED. Men without prostate disease who combined NSAID use with >208.5 days of 5α-RI exposure had 4.8-fold higher risk of PED than men with shorter exposure (NNH 59.8, all p < 0.002). Among men 16–42 years old and exposed to finasteride ≤1.25 mg/day, 34 of 4,284 (0.8%) developed PED (persistence median 1,534 days, IQR 651–2,351 days); the multivariable model predicting PED had one variable: duration of 5α-RI exposure. Of 103 young men with new ED, 34 (33%) had new PED. Young men with >205 days of finasteride exposure had 4.9-fold higher risk of PED (NNH 108.2, p < 0.004) than men with shorter exposure.
So given the above information, what are you talking about? You're making sweeping statements that aren't supported by medical literature.
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microneedling + minoxidil is very effective but sadly means nothing without an AA blocker.
minoxidil has an extensive side profile, arguably worse than finasteride.
we’re all waiting on something better than finasteride.
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In what universe does minoxidil have a worse side effect profile? It's OTC for fucks sake. Maybe if you're talking about oral minoxidil.
You're talking about topical Minoxidil being bad then talking about Oral Minoxidil like the side effects aren't potentially worse for Oral Minoxidil.
Oral Minoxidil doesn't cause low libido, ED, etc and doesn't mess with hormones the way that Finasteride does. Blocking 70% DHT which is the 2nd most important hormone in males for a large % of men. It's no surprise there's so many side effects from Finasteride.
No one said Minoxidil is completely safe, but it is relatively more safe than Finasteride.
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Did you mean to reply to me? That's exactly what I'm saying. Topical min is nearly harmless, oral minoxidil less so as it may have some consequences if taken by someone with normal blood pressure. Arguably cardiovascular problems are worse than any sexual side effect given that they can kill you.
Some people think minoxidil messes up their skin/face. If you don't get any sides from finasteride then use minoxidil and think it is messing up your face then it is arguably worse than finasteride from their perspective.
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Hmm, maybe we should ban minoxidil too so nobody's face gets messed up? And when you lose your hair after they've achieved their goal to prohibit the drug and its off-label use, these intolerant pricks and their enablers (Micky_007) will say it was all for your own good, in fact you should kiss their @ss for saving you from side-effects, whether you've had them or not.
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You haven’t lived until you experience the ecstatic release that comes from using finasteride suppositories. Get yourself some of those, some R. Kelly doo doo butter to slather on your sack. It’s not only great for hairloss, it’s great for growing a thick, luxurious mane around your dick.
My mistake, was quickly typing during a few minute gap of free time so I didn't get a chance to read your message correctly, but I agree with what you're saying. I only support topical min. Oral min is dangerous.
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Suck a bag of dicks. I didn't say it should be banned, I said it just shouldn't be FDA approved as safe for treating Hair Loss.
It is a fact that Finasteride is dangerous for a large % of people.
You can't block 70% of the 2nd most important male hormone and think it's not going to have negative side effects for a large % of people of which many times sides are irreversible, it just doesn't make sense logically.
And there's many people who couldn't have children because of Finasteride, or people who had ED, Low Libido, low sperm count, etc but aren't on the internet as well and haven't reported these side effects due to Finasteride either due to the much longer process of reporting negative sides compared to how quick and easy it is to simply report no negative side effects, hence i know for sure that there's far more people who actually get sides than any statistics show.
You also very often have people getting sides like this:
And then you get those who were lucky enough to have some of their sides from Finasteride go away after stopping Finasteride. But that's the point, they had to stop use. Which proves the drug does cause really bad side effects, even if it doesn't call permanent side effects in every single person, it is still dangerous for many.
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You have no idea how AA works, so...... There is a cascade where Androgens just start it.
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No, I didn't say you're one of those who want it banned, I said you're an enabler.