No, I can't show you hundreds of cases of anything and I'm not claiming to validate anecdotal cases. I'm claiming to explain why finasteride works when it works, why it doesn't work when it doesn't, and every other scenario that falls in between. I'm not using anecdotes for this. I'm using reasoning and logic coupled with hundreds of clinical publications and my claims harmonize very nicely with both clinical publications and anecdotal cases. I actually think anecdotes are incredibly important and have been more valuable in leading to uncovering of valuable clinical publications than anything for me, but I don't stake my claims on anecdotes... only on what I can support with clinical research.
How Dutasteride utterly destroyed my hair and why you shouldn't take it
- Thread starter Caillou
- Start date
No, I can't show you hundreds of cases of anything and I'm not claiming to validate anecdotal cases. I'm claiming to explain why finasteride works when it works, why it doesn't work when it doesn't, and every other scenario that falls in between. I'm not using anecdotes for this. I'm using reasoning and logic coupled with hundreds of clinical publications and my claims harmonize very nicely with both clinical publications and anecdotal cases. I actually think anecdotes are incredibly important and have been more valuable in leading to uncovering of valuable clinical publications than anything for me, but I don't stake my claims on anecdotes... only on what I can support with clinical research.
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Debate him
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That has to be in your head. How does it work a couple weeks then your hair goes back to looking like sh*t? Hair cycles are nowhere near that short. This is the issue with observational data, only as good as the person recording it.
I’d rather lose all my hair than consider your diet. Personally, that sounds so out of pocket. Each their own, I guess.
I’d rather lose all my hair than consider your diet. Personally, that sounds so out of pocket. Each their own, I guess.
It's absolutely possible that certain substances speed up or exacerbate hairloss, even in a short amount of time.
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We’re aware. Not what I said.
Unless I'm misinterpreting.... Which I could well be, I'm really good at doing that...
"That has to be in your head. How does it work a couple weeks then your hair goes back to looking like sh*t? Hair cycles are nowhere near that short."
It has to be in my head lol. This guy can't fathom it, so it must be in my head.
Ok, so I'm going to say something that will piss more people off that simply can't fathom real physiological changes in my own body that I experienced probably at least on ten separate occasions in the past decade of experimentation with finasteride. The change in hair shaft diameter... It doesn't occur due to an actual growth of more keratin. That wouldn't make sense because the hair wouldn't be able to get thin so quickly when finasteride stops working after a few weeks. That would require sudden loss of keratin or a new hair cycle and that obviously makes no sense.
So, the reason the hair is able to increase and decrease in diameter in such a short time frame is due to a concentration gradient. There is some mineral... I'm not sure what it is exactly... Could be intracellular sodium, potassium, calcium, etc... something like this which causes the hair shaft to swell due to greater water retention... water flowing toward area of highest concentration. It is the only reasonable and logical explanation. Same reasoning for why water retention occurs in the skin, which also happened to my skin in parallel with the increase in hair shaft diameter... I experienced water retention. It's why women generally have such plump and beautiful skin.. they retain more moisture and their skin swells up. And it wasn't in my head... You don't imagine your hair shaft diameter basically doubling in size. You don't imagine the weight of your hair being significantly heavier when wet. The changes were far too profound and observed way too many times to be delusionally imagined. The darkening of the hair... I'm not sure exactly what caused that, although, I suppose that could have occurred for the same reason.
As a side note, I'd rather lose all my hair than change the way I currently eat. The benefits are so profound that I'd rather give up hair to feel the way it makes me feel. Luckily, I don't have to do that because the exact opposite occurs... and it's ok if you don't take my word for it. I'll be happy to show visual evidence within 7-8 months following my recovery.
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Anybody who's been on this forum long enough knows that 99% of posts titled something like "omg finasteride/dutasteride destroyed my hair" have no pictures backing them up or it's from an NW1 dude with perfect density.
Body dysmorphia is the real problem here
Body dysmorphia is the real problem here
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There’s many things that can quickly adversely affect you hair. Telogen effluvium, shock loss, etc. None of which are permanent. What I said originally was, you can’t take Finasteride and it “thicken the diameter of your hair” the first week and then the next week thin it out. To my understanding, this has never been recorded in history of finasteride use. If it has please link me to where I can see it. Don’t link me @ChemHead observational data, it means nothing. Without numbers, photos, or proper analysis it quite literally means nothing.
There’s kids on here who are a NW1 and say they are a NW4. I too some days feel as if my hair is thinner than the night before etc. Does that mean finasteride is enlarging my hairs diameter two weeks then the other shrinking it drastically? Certainly not.
@ChemHead it’s not that I cannot fathom what you are saying. I can. You just have no credibility or numbers or pictures to validate anything you are saying. You are jumping to conclusions way too quick because you think you’re some chemistry wizard. Lmao. For all I know you’re some deranged kid behind the keyboard.
Like I said because you’re some chemistry wizard its the ONLY reasonable and “logical” explanation. You do understand that that proposition itself is illogical, no? It couldn’t be something else you have not considered or is out of the scope of your understanding? Clearly not
.I’m done fueling this sh*t pit. You’re certainly not as smart as you believe yourself to be.
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Finasteride regrew my crown and gave me ED in 3 weeks.There’s many things that can quickly adversely affect you hair. Telogen effluvium, shock loss, etc. None of which are permanent. What I said originally was, you can’t take Finasteride and it “thicken the diameter of your hair” the first week and then the next week thin it out. To my understanding, this has never been recorded in history of finasteride use. If it has please link me to where I can see it. Don’t link me @ChemHead observational data, it means nothing. Without numbers, photos, or proper analysis it quite literally means nothing.
There’s kids on here who are a NW1 and say they are a NW4. I too some days feel as if my hair is thinner than the night before etc. Does that mean finasteride is enlarging my hairs diameter two weeks then the other shrinking it drastically? Certainly not.
@ChemHead it’s not that I cannot fathom what you are saying. I can. You just have no credibility or numbers or pictures to validate anything you are saying. You are jumping to conclusions way too quick because you think you’re some chemistry wizard. Lmao. For all I know you’re some deranged kid behind the keyboard.
Like I said because you’re some chemistry wizard its the ONLY reasonable and “logical” explanation. You do understand that that proposition itself is illogical, no? It couldn’t be something else you have not considered or is out of the scope of your understanding? Clearly not
I’m done fueling this sh*t pit. You’re certainly not as smart as you believe yourself to be.
E spike
I'm sorry, but you absolutely can. I did it repeatedly over the last 10 years. I'm not sure why you say my proposition is illogical. I gave you reasons why it was perfectly logical. Alteration in water retention is a perfectly valid reason. It had to happen one way or another. I'm not going sit here and act like I didn't observe this phenomenon a multitude of times. That's not even a question. The question for me was always "why?".
I'm sure if you look, you'll find plenty of examples of people that experienced bloating and water retention on finasteride. Most people that have experienced this effect using finasteride probably have no clue what's happening... All they know is that their hair got thicker. So, obviously you're not going to see a hoard of finasteride users claim their hair got thicker due to water retention.
The side effects from finasteride aren't much different from the side effects that anabolic steroid users experience. In fact, they're mostly identical. My hair shaft diameter significantly increased in diameter and this happened in parallel with experiencing typical high estrogen sides like bloating and water retention. The effects went away in a matter of a week because that's how long it takes for the hypothalamus to shut down steroid synthesis and reduce aromatase expression to protect the body.
My hair went from being weak, thin, and sitting flat on my head (completely incapable of standing up under its own weight) to literally double the thickness, more rigid, and easily able to hold itself up under its own weight. The ONLY explanation for something like this is increased water retention... because if that's not the answer, then the only other explanation is physical growth of keratin and we both agree that that's ridiculous. Hair isn't going to grow new keratin in a week and then lose that keratin the following week. I didn't "feel" like my hair was maybe thicker or thinner... I don't talk about things that "feel" maybe happened. My hair got incredibly thick. It went from incredibly thin to incredibly thick and then back to thin in a very short period of time... and I did this many, many times.
Ok lol. Let me know if you're interested in having a respectful, adult conversation. I don't think you have anything actually valuable to contribute, but I'm willing to be surprised. You've not said a single valuable thing in this entire thread. You simply attack me for things I don't actually say. You're a very insecure person.
Wow. People in this thread are seriously idiotic. Like we get it. You're cynical. You can't believe anything until you see "proof". But maybe, just maybe, there's something to the hundreds of people saying the same f*****g thing about it causing their hair to get destroyed.
The blatant ignoring and pessimism here disgusts me.
The blatant ignoring and pessimism here disgusts me.
Honestly, what's the point of being on these forums? No one here is involved in clinical research... the whole purpose of forums like this is to discuss ideas like this and (hopefully) there are enough intelligent, well-read people that can come together and discuss possible mechanisms. It's ALL theory. The best we can do is gather current research and information regarding the current state of the art in treatment and use it to support theory. If you don't want to have a discussion about something theoretical then why tf are you on this forum?
BTW, I appreciate research scientists that work in clinical research, but some of you deify these people. They're not gods... they're just people like everyone else. They got where they are in life by being interested and searching for answers, which is exactly how ANYONE gets ANYWHERE in life. So, stop the bullshit ad hoc slandering of people because they don't have some fcking title next to their name in a clinical publication. If you want to contribute, evaluate ideas instead of shtting on people you can't intellectually stand up to. If everyone in the world cowered to losers like that, we'd have no innovation in our world. This forum honestly sucks. Maybe it's because it's mostly full of insecure children that want to scream at the world because they can't have what they want. This forum should be called hairlosswhining or hairlossbitching. There's no talk or discussion that occurs.. only cynical whining and waiting for "someone else" to come along and fix your problem.
I do appreciate the few of you on here that do contribute positively to discussion, though. You know who you are.
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Since I am the guy who basically digged you back up here is my feedback to you:
You have explained many things to me that didn’t make sense to me and our experiences with finasteride are similar too.
i dont think I can agree with your diet stuff, and I am pretty sure this is why most people put you over the edge so to say. People see black and white: either someone is completely right or completely wrong.
when the truth is that even if only 20% of the things you say is true you are the most valuable theoretical contributor to this forum
like u said, we should exchange ideas and learn from each other, and not only authorities holding professorships, but also on forums, are completely incapable of considering things they thought to be true are actually not
anyways, thanks for your contributions
i guess it’s smart E or nothing...
i dont think you’ll grow your hair back, but hope I am wrong
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I experienced this many, many times. Easiest way is to take something estrogenic. Equol did this for example.
The cortex of the hair shaft contains water, so an increase in the water content could cause the hair shaft to "swell" rather quickly despite the actual proteins that form the rigid core being unchanged.
Since you're one of the few people I know who have observed and believe in this effect, I propose an experiment: I can always reliably reproduce this by taking some good tribulus (for instance, VemoHerb brand). Just take 1 Tribulus pill per day and see if you get this kind of "puffy" hair effect. Always happens. I believe Tribulus have some SERM-like properties and it could be the ER-ß stimulation that is responsible for this.
With regards to the subject of the OP, I believe where there is smoke, there is fire. Derek from MPMD was on Dutasteride and he had experienced further loss just from the testosterone he was running. "But he was using supraphysiological amounts", you might say. Perhaps, but it is the amount of receptor density someone has that determines the overall effect of androgens, some people go bald with really low T & DHT levels, so that doesn't really matter so much in the absolute sense.
Very interesting. Tribulus is one of those herbs I've aways thought about trying, but never got around to. As soon as I'm recovered from finasteride, I'll definitely be getting some to see how it affects me. One of the great things about my diet is that it's so consistent, that if I introduce some new food or supplement, I can pretty much guarantee that any physiological changes that occur are from that dietary addition.
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Could this be what makes vellus grow back?
When I would take finasteride, during that couple week stretch of amazing hair, I would get a ton of vellus hair sprouting in my hair line. I'm sure it probably popped up all over my scalp, but I could only see what showed up in the hair line.