How Dutasteride utterly destroyed my hair and why you shouldn't take it

[ChemHead]

If anyone has any questions or would like citation for any specific claims I make, let me know. I don't say any of this because I'm just guessing. I've experimented on myself for over a decade to verify the claims that I've made and it all started with what seemed to be paradoxical behavior of finasteride... my hair would completely cease from falling out and the hair shaft diameter would nearly double in size within only a few weeks of starting finasteride and then it would stay that way for around a week and then taper off over the course of another week or two, going back to thin and shedding, but with dry skin and wispy dry hair. I couldn't explain why finasteride would work so well for such a short period of time and then suddenly go backwards, so I would let myself recover from finasteride for a few months and then cycle back on again. Each time I cycled back on, I would experiment with a different pharmaceutical or steroid in parallel to try and figure out what exactly was responsible for this paradox.

Anyway, if you need a citation, I've got it. And if I don't, I'll tell you that I don't and I'll tell you exactly where in my statements I'm making an assumption, but I don't believe there's anything I've written that I can't provide a clinical publication to support.

Also 5a-reductase antagonists are dangerous. They're not only dangerous because they're cutting off a vital metabolic pathway, but they're dangerous because the longer you take them, the longer it takes for your body to recover from them. When I started taking finasteride a decade ago, I could stop taking it and recover within 3-4 months time. This recovery time grew with each cycle of finasteride and, as of right now, I'm currently going on a little over 2.5 years recovering from my last and final use of finasteride. I made a huge mistake and a bad assumption by trying to experiment with topical microdosing of finasteride, thinking I would be able to recover more quickly than the previous time (which also took years). I had changed my diet and don't get me wrong... my diet has had PROFOUND effects on my health and my hair and systemic inflammation, but I made the mistake of assuming that my diet was solely responsible for the recovery I experienced because I had made this change within a few months of recovery and started experiencing the stages of recovery. So, I thought, "no big deal... I'll just see if there's any merit to topical microdosing finasteride and if I end up screwed up from it, then I'll be able to recover within a few months." That was a huge mistake and I was careless in my decisions, considering that I knew how badly finasteride effects me. So, here I am, over 2.5 years later and, thankfully, I'm in the closing months of recovery from finasteride. The saddest part about this is that I've not only lost those 2.5 years of my life, but that's also 2.5 years that I believe I very likely would have been regrowing hair, had I not messed with finasteride again.

 

[Me Vs DiffuseThinning]

If all the great thinkers, scientists and philosophers throughout the history dismissed any new ideas and ways of thinking because to them it was "unproven broscience that doesn't confirm to our current knowledge and beliefs", we would still be throwing rocks at each others and living in tents


Unfortunately nowadays science is criminally misunderstood and misused because people don't even understand what it stands for and they use it for their personal agendas instead of understanding the world and seeking knowledge

Your personal anecdote is not a replacement for the scientific method.

 

[Moosey]

what a shitshow this thread is. Spreading misinformation and making people paranoid

 

[Caillou]

Your personal anecdote is not a replacement for the scientific method.

You're completely braindead, you're repeating yourself like a recorder and you can't even understand what i'm saying

And i'm sure i care far more about science and the scientific method more than psuedointellectuals, delusional people like you who treat science like an ideology and twist it to confirm their retarded delusions

 

[Caillou]

what a shitshow this thread is. Spreading misinformation and making people paranoid

Why in God's name can't i post about my experience? Because you're a pissweak pathetic moron who doesn't want to hear something uncomfortable? Who gives a sh*t what you think? If you're so weak that you don't want to deal with anything different than what's inside the bubble of beliefs you confined yourself into then it's not my problem retard

 

[WaccWaccWacc]

If anyone has any questions or would like citation for any specific claims I make, let me know. I don't say any of this because I'm just guessing. I've experimented on myself for over a decade to verify the claims that I've made and it all started with what seemed to be paradoxical behavior of finasteride... my hair would completely cease from falling out and the hair shaft diameter would nearly double in size within only a few weeks of starting finasteride and then it would stay that way for around a week and then taper off over the course of another week or two, going back to thin and shedding, but with dry skin and wispy dry hair. I couldn't explain why finasteride would work so well for such a short period of time and then suddenly go backwards, so I would let myself recover from finasteride for a few months and then cycle back on again. Each time I cycled back on, I would experiment with a different pharmaceutical or steroid in parallel to try and figure out what exactly was responsible for this paradox.

Anyway, if you need a citation, I've got it. And if I don't, I'll tell you that I don't and I'll tell you exactly where in my statements I'm making an assumption, but I don't believe there's anything I've written that I can't provide a clinical publication to support.

Also 5a-reductase antagonists are dangerous. They're not only dangerous because they're cutting off a vital metabolic pathway, but they're dangerous because the longer you take them, the longer it takes for your body to recover from them. When I started taking finasteride a decade ago, I could stop taking it and recover within 3-4 months time. This recovery time grew with each cycle of finasteride and, as of right now, I'm currently going on a little over 2.5 years recovering from my last and final use of finasteride. I made a huge mistake and a bad assumption by trying to experiment with topical microdosing of finasteride, thinking I would be able to recover more quickly than the previous time (which also took years). I had changed my diet and don't get me wrong... my diet has had PROFOUND effects on my health and my hair and systemic inflammation, but I made the mistake of assuming that my diet was solely responsible for the recovery I experienced because I had made this change within a few months of recovery and started experiencing the stages of recovery. So, I thought, "no big deal... I'll just see if there's any merit to topical microdosing finasteride and if I end up screwed up from it, then I'll be able to recover within a few months." That was a huge mistake and I was careless in my decisions, considering that I knew how badly finasteride effects me. So, here I am, over 2.5 years later and, thankfully, I'm in the closing months of recovery from finasteride. The saddest part about this is that I've not only lost those 2.5 years of my life, but that's also 2.5 years that I believe I very likely would have been regrowing hair, had I not messed with finasteride again.

I’m not getting too far deep into this but you cycling on and off finasteride is exactly what you’re told not to do.

If you’ve found out how to reduce hairloss through non-finasteride methods so be it. Stick with it or passionately pursue making it public and wide-spread, seems like you got the interest to do so.

Otherwise, telling people to not take finasteride due to this and that, most of which is solely observational to yourself, is not fair to the countless of studies and ancedotal evidence of people across all ages gaining ground and maintaining ground with this drug.

It seems like your big on chemistry and finding out how things work. Observational findings (like the ones performed on yourself) are well respected. However, to think it stops there, after an observation is simply nonsense. You’ve reached the hypothesis stage of your scientific process. Statistics and hypothesis testing plays a crucial part after that. All of which have been implemented in drugs such as finasteride and minoxidil.

 

[Einstein]

Someone did to this thread what the dog did to the chicken

 

[ChemHead]

If all the great thinkers, scientists and philosophers throughout the history dismissed any new ideas and ways of thinking because to them it was "unproven broscience that doesn't confirm to our current knowledge and beliefs", we would still be throwing rocks at each others and living in tents


Unfortunately nowadays science is criminally misunderstood and misused because people don't even understand what it stands for and they use it for their personal agendas instead of understanding the world and seeking knowledge

I agree with this. I think it's sad that intelligent and capable people are not having more theoretical conversation and more thinking outside of what is currently agreed, by consensus, is the cause of hair loss.

The reason people are led to believe that DHT and androgens cause hair loss is because researchers using drugs that antagonize 5a-reductase or the androgen receptor imply that they do... and at first glance, it would seem that androgens do cause hair loss. However, there are enough inconsistencies that eventually lead one to believe that there's much more to it than just androgens.

Answer these questions:

What happens when you take a 5a-reductase inhibitor? DHT is reduced. Right? But is that all? Is that really all??

What happens when you take an androgen receptor antagonist? Androgens can't bind the androgen receptor? Right But is that all? Is that really all??

The answer is a definitive NO to both of those questions and I can explain to you exactly how the use of either a 5a-reductase antagonist or an androgen receptor antagonist will affect you regarding estrogenic activity.

I explained what happens with 5a-reductase in my previous post... you block of the 5AR pathway, testosterone/androstenedione builds sharply in concentration, intrafollicular estrogens also sharply increase, hypothalamus gets involved and down-regulates steroid synthesis and aromatase expression, deficiency in local tissue estrogen synthesis occurs and deficiency in general steroid synthesis occurs.

What happens with an androgen receptor antagonist? And why do they only tend to work for a short time (or not at all, for some)? Androgen receptors are bound, serum concentration of androgens sharply increases (Right... there's no receptor for the androgens to bind, so their concentration rises), higher concentration of androgens leads to both increase in DHT as well as estrogens (it's reaction kinetics... it's probability... higher concentration of androgens results in higher synthesis of their 5a-reduced and aromatized metabolites), increased testosterone/androstenedione concentration and resulting increase in estrogens results in hypothalamic down-regulation, reduced androgen receptor function (due to the AR antagonist) results in reduced aromatase expression, and the end result is essentially the same as with finasteride. However, finasteride seems to be a little more effective than an androgen receptor antagonist in its temporary improvements in hair. The point is, though, that I just explained why two drugs that affect androgens also affect estrogens. So, the use of 5a-reductase antagonists and androgen receptor antagonists DO NOT exclusively imply that hair loss is caused by androgens just because these drugs have positive effects on hair growth.. because they don't just affect androgens.

And this is the problem with the current state of the art in hair loss research. Everyone involved is blinded by the false assumption that excess intrafollicular androgens are the cause of hair loss, rather than insufficient intrafollicular estrogens. And so, research is centered around androgens... and it hasn't worked! People are still losing hair with these drugs and there's still no solution! They're looking in the wrong place. They need to be looking at why someone transitioning from MTF can grow a full head of hair. MTF's grow hair because they're flooding their bodies with ridiculous amounts of estrogens. Are they taking anti-androgens? Yeah, but they don't start regrowing hair until they introduce some serious amounts of estrogens.

 

[ChemHead]

I’m not getting too far deep into this but you cycling on and off finasteride is exactly what you’re told not to do.

Told not to do by who, exactly? I'm assuming people might suggest not to cycle on and off finasteride if you want consistency in results. My goal wasn't to have consistency. My goal was to figure out why finasteride worked for a few weeks and then my hair went back to being sh*t. My cycling finasteride has absolutely nothing to do with it suddenly becoming ineffective while using it. I didn't cycle finasteride the first time I took it. I took it as recommended for 6 months to a year. Nothing different happened... It made my hair amazingly thick in hair shaft diameter and completely stopped shedding for a couple weeks and then my hair became dry, thin, and started shedding again. It's not some BS "shedding phase" that everyone talks about where you sit around and wait for it to go away. I waited for a year and nothing different happened, so I quit taking it. Then, when 5a-reductase expression returned, I started taking it again because that's the only option I thought I had. After this happened a couple times, I started noticing a trend. Finasteride would work incredibly well... like basically temporarily curing my hair loss. For a couple weeks, I'd have incredibly thick and darker hair that wouldn't fall out even if I tried to pull it out and then.

I'm giving everyone perfectly logical reasons for everything I'm stating and I'm willing to cite clinical publications for literally anything I've stated and I just can't understand how everyone can continue to be under the delusion that hair loss is caused by androgens when the evidence says otherwise and the hair loss industry, which has been focusing on androgens literally forever, has not produced anything useful in decades. And the effects of the things they they have produced can be explained by how they affect estrogens.

 

[Me Vs DiffuseThinning]

You are a crazy person. Maintenance and/or regrowth has been observed in over 90% of finasteride and dutasteride subjects in long-term studies.

 

[ChemHead]

Maintenance and/or regrowth has been observed in over 90% of finasteride and dutasteride subjects in long-term studies.

I'm not disagreeing with that. What I've stated simply explains why finasteride works and it also explains why it doesn't work for some people and it also explains everything else in between. The difference between those groups of people is simply genetics. Why do some people completely regrow a full head of hair with finasteride? Because finasteride likely has a very strong effect in their skin and scalp without affecting hypothalamic regulation of their steroid synthesis. Why do some people just shed likely crazy and experience no benefit at all from finasteride? Because they likely have extremely low aromatase expression and reasonably low or normal 5AR expression in the scalp and finasteride does seriously affect their hypothalamic regulation of steroid synthesis and metabolism. So, finasteride does essentially nothing in their scalp and the hypothalamic dysregulation that it causes makes their already very low intrafollicular estrogenic activity even lower, causing shedding. Everyone else is a variation of those two extremes.

I never stated that 5a-reductase inhibitors don't work. I explained why they work and then I explained why they also don't work or lose effectiveness (for some very quickly and, for others, over a longer period of time) and also why they're completely awful for you health.

 

[Me Vs DiffuseThinning]

I'm not disagreeing with that. What I've stated simply explains why finasteride works and it also explains why it doesn't work for some people and it also explains everything else in between. The difference between those groups of people is simply genetics. Why do some people completely regrow a full head of hair with finasteride? Because finasteride likely has a very strong effect in their skin and scalp without affecting hypothalamic regulation of their steroid synthesis. Why do some people just shed likely crazy and experience no benefit at all from finasteride? Because they likely have extremely low aromatase expression and reasonably low or normal 5AR expression in the scalp and finasteride does seriously affect their hypothalamic regulation of steroid synthesis and metabolism. So, finasteride does essentially nothing in their scalp and the hypothalamic dysregulation that it causes makes their already very low intrafollicular estrogenic activity even lower, causing shedding. Everyone else is a variation of those two extremes.

I never stated that 5a-reductase inhibitors don't work. I explained why they work and then I explained why they also don't work or lose effectiveness (for some very quickly and, for others, over a longer period of time) and also why they're completely awful for you health.

Researchers have never claimed that there aren't factors beyond DHT sensitivity. However, time and time again, 5AR inhibitors have been demonstrated to be the best line of defence against male pattern baldness. It's irresponsible and misguided to fearmonger against drugs that work effectively, and without side effects, for 9/10 people just because your personal experience was not a positive one.

 

[ChemHead]

Researchers have never claimed that there aren't factors beyond DHT sensitivity. However, time and time again, 5AR inhibitors have been demonstrated to be the best line of defence against male pattern baldness. It's irresponsible and misguided to fearmonger against drugs that work effectively, and without side effects, for 9/10 people just because your personal experience was not a positive one.

It's clear that you have no grasp of what I'm even saying. There's no such thing as "DHT sensitivity". I explained to you why 5AR inhibitors work and it has nothing to do with reducing DHT and everything to do with increasing intrafollicular estrogen synthesis. I also never stated whether my experience with finasteride was either positive or negative. I also wouldn't take back my experience with finasteride because, without it, I wouldn't have the knowledge to move forward and work toward a permanent solution for both hair loss and health. You can't fix hair loss if you don't understand the pathology. I believe that I understand it. The hair loss industry clearly doesn't understand it. If they did, this forum wouldn't exist and no one would be bitching about hair loss.

 

[whatintheworld]

@ChemHead what would you recommend people do as an alternative to finasteride?

I have tried many, many "natural" alternatives and nothing has worked.

I can list them, high antioxidants, ecklonia cava, soy isoflavones, quercetin, tuermeric. I eat very healthily and went to numerous doctor's appointments for full panel blood work and health screening. They came back pristine, or as good as man in his twenties who isn't a professional athlete can be. I exercise regularly and am an optimal weight for my height.

 

[whatintheworld]

I understand how multi-faceted this condition is, we just don't have any treatment options available that actually work besides finasteride and minoxidil.

Some guy a while back took high doses of Septipiprant and seemed to have maintained on that, so there are some experimental drugs available. But why take unproven risks like that when most people tolerate finasteride and minoxidil sufficiently well without side effects. At least those drugs allow you to hold down the fort for a future transplant.

 

[whatintheworld]

what a shitshow this thread is. Spreading misinformation and making people paranoid

Now it seems to have diverged into that, but let me ask you: have you seen any studies of what happens if you give people finasteride or dutasteride who do not have male pattern baldness?

Do you believe the chance is 0% that these people, by taking these drugs, can negatively affect their hormonal panel and thus trigger hair loss sensitivity that they previously did not have?

I do not think the chance is 0%.

 

[ChemHead]

Now it seems to have diverged into that, but let me ask you: have you seen any studies of what happens if you give people finasteride or dutasteride who do not have male pattern baldness?

Do you believe the chance is 0% that these people, by taking these drugs, can negatively affect their hormonal panel and thus trigger hair loss sensitivity that they previously did not have?

I do not think the chance is 0%.

The chance is likely close to 100%. Finasteride does and will cause hypothalamic dyregulation in everyone that uses it. The degree of dysregulation depends on the dose and the person. Some people may not notice much of anything happening but that doesn't mean that something isn't happening. A person that doesn't suffer from hair loss that takes finasteride will likely end up with thinner hair. That doesn't mean it will necessarily shed.. it certainly can, but it's likely that they will experience a moderate decrease in hair shaft diameter, giving them weak hair that appears thinning.

If you want to find a study, I would search for "finasteride gonadotropin releasing hormone" or "finasteride luteinizing hormone" or "finasteride hypothalamic dysregulation" or "finasteride HPTA dysregulation". I would be surprised if you didn't find at least something. I wouldn't count on finding a plethora of studies because it's not in Merck or GSK's best interest to have clinical studies about how 5a-reductase inhibitors cause hypothalamic dysregulation, but there should be something.

 

[ChemHead]

@ChemHead what would you recommend people do as an alternative to finasteride?

I have tried many, many "natural" alternatives and nothing has worked.

I can list them, high antioxidants, ecklonia cava, soy isoflavones, quercetin, tuermeric. I eat very healthily and went to numerous doctor's appointments for full panel blood work and health screening. They came back pristine, or as good as man in his twenties who isn't a professional athlete can be. I exercise regularly and am an optimal weight for my height.

If you search for my name to find my posts, you'll find everything that I'm doing, but I'll try to give you a brief overview of what I currently do and what has led me to those things.

So, with the assumption that I'm right about the aforementioned things, these are the goals:

1. increase body's ability to metabolize and clear estrogens and keep serum estrogens and cortisol as low as possible. If serum estrogens are low, the hypothalamus will secrete higher levels of GnRH and signal higher levels of LH and FSH from the pituitary and the testes will synthesize steroids at a higher rate. Lower serum estrogens and enhanced ability to metabolize and clear estrogens properly will also promote higher expression of aromatase in various tissues in the body that express aromatase.

2. if possible, try to promote a local increase in aromatase expression in the scalp (I would use castor oil due to the ability of ricinoleic acid to increase aromatase expression) and try to promote a decrease in 5a-reductase expression. These effects MUST be localized to the scalp. If they're not, you're going to affect serum concentration of estrogens and you're just going to end up with hypothalamic down-regulation. This is why pharmaceuticals are simply not going to work unless a company develops a drug to bind 5a-reductase exclusively in the scalp or a drug to promote aromatase expression exclusively in the scalp. So, the only topical stimulants I'm currently interested in using are ricinoleic acid from castor oil and rosemary oil.

With that being said, the best way to positively alter steroid synthesis and steroid metabolizing enzyme expression is to get you body to do it through better health. Most of you will probably ignore me or vehemently disagree with me on what I'm about to say... and that's ok with me. I don't expect you to believe me. If what I say works or doesn't work, it will soon be evident and you won't have to take my word for it. The way to get your body to synthesize more steroids and express higher levels of steroid metabolizing enzymes like aromatase is based on a simple equation for me:

It's all about your body's ability to produce cellular energy. The amount of energy your body has is a function of the amount of chemical energy you take in (food), minus the amount of energy required for that chemical energy to be converted into something useful to the body, minus your systemic load... the amount of energy generally required for you to exist. Everything I do and consume is based on how to maximize the net energy surplus of the body in this equation. I eat foods that are very easy to digest, low in calories, highly nutrient dense, and as low as possible in inflammatory load.

I do not eat meat. I do not eat dairy. I do not eat grains like rice or bread. I don't even really eat cooked food. My diet consists of primarily leafy greens, microgreens sprouted from seeds and pulses, lots vegetables, a small amount of nuts and coconut, a small amount of fruit. I occasionally eat cooked food, but not often... maybe a nice cooked meal once every couple months or so... just whenever I feel like it, but not often. I eat meat at least once a year, but not usually more than twice and it's only for a holiday or social occasion. Dairy... I just stay away from it all together. I do this because the inflammatory load of raw foods is essentially zero. Meat and dairy are heavily inflammatory, no matter the source. Cooked grains and pulses, while not having high inflammatory loads, are difficult to digest in comparison to raw foods and so I generally avoid those as well. Yes, this would be a difficult diet to follow for most, but I'm used to it and I wouldn't do it if the health benefits I receive from doing it were not worth giving up the enjoyment of cooked foods and meat and dairy. In other words, I like the way I feel on my diet better than the feeling of temporary enjoyment those other food provide.

The health benefits of this have been the most incredibly profound thing I've ever done out of anything I've ever done in my life for my health. The reason I believe I will be able to regrow hair is because, after I recovered from finasteride over 2.5 years ago, my 5a-reductase expression returned and my classic symptoms returned like usual... itchy skin and scalp and moderate shedding of hair. However, a month after my 5a-reductase returned, my aromatase expression also started to increase and not only did I feel incredible due to having restored 5a-reductase, but my skin started to look incredible and my hair completely... like 100% stopped falling out and I had no more itching scalp or inflammation. This is something that never happened in the past during the time I wasn't using finasteride.

As I mentioned previously, I'm in the closing month(s) of recovery from finasteride and, when I'm fully recovered, I expect a significant amount of regrowth of my hair within a full growth cycle. So, I'd say approximately 7-8 months from the day I'm recovered, I should have significantly more hair. If I don't, I will concede that I'm probably wrong and that diet won't help you grow hair. Based on what I've already experienced, though, I think that's highly unlikely.

 

[whatintheworld]

@ChemHead That is interesting. I admittedly have not ventured into such dietary experimentation because I was skeptical it would do anything. Perhaps it couldn't hurt to try. Although, with work and everything else going on in life, it's hard to keep the diet super strict and clean. Without meat I find it hard to have any energy to do anything, the same as without carbohydrates.

 

[Chill dude]

I seriously still don't know why this shitty drug is still being used by people. I've searched all-over the internet and found at most 5 cases where they regrowed hair using dutasteride and like a hundred else including me where we lost sh*t-ton of hair or got side effects

Background :-

I'm 21 years old male, have started losing hair 6 years ago around my temples and the area between the midscalp and frontal hairline. The loss had been slow and mostly unnoticeable thinning, some times got worse and other times it was better, but overall i was a fullhead to everyone unless you were an expert Norwood-spotter which most people aren't

Around 3 months ago i started to worry about losing further hair and wanted to perserve. My shedding was normal especially since i have a dandruff condition, and i started taking dutasteride 0.5 mg EOD and thought i was doing good

That was my hair during march which was 2.5 months ago

Dry under lights :-

View attachment 163263

Wet under normal lights :-

View attachment 163264
View attachment 163265

Wet under harsh lights 1.5 months ago :-

View attachment 163266
View attachment 163267



Basically a fullhead. But as soon as i popped that shitty pill, i started shedding over 300 follicles EVERY SINGLE DAY. Each time i combed my hair i lost around 50 minimum, shedding from my hairline, my sides, my back and the itching increased dramatically especially in my crown (which now as a balding spot along with the rest of my massacred hairline)

After 2 months of this terrible shed i couldn't style my hair anymore, looked in the mirror and found that my left temple basically disappeared along with the area behind hairline and went to diffuse thinning NW3 with thinning sides and back and a bald spot on crown from a relatively all-over thick NW2 in TWO MONTHS

This is my hair right now after i had to shave due to losing all 60% of my density in two months, even took Spironolactone 200 MG and it just made things even worse

Nowadays dry under normal lights :-

View attachment 163268
View attachment 163269

So my advice to you guys is to stay away from that unproven scam drug and take a low dose of finasteride and get transplants instead. My itch now disappeared after stopping it and i think my shedding has decreased as well and i hope that somehow i will regain even just some of my hair back instead of going full bald in less than a year

i was greedy and wanted regrowth to get back to NW1 that's why i tried Dutasteride, i'm paying the price for my greed now

And the brand is Avodart which is the most legit Dutasteride as far as i know

This is a weird thing for a hair loss prevention drug to actually speed up what nature had intended?? I’ve been taking Dutasteride for about 15 months and it’s made my hair a lot stronger and thicker at the hairline and all over. Maybe get back on the drug and stay the course and hopefully it will grow back the initial shed which always happens to everyone by the way who takes this. (Including myself)

this is me now after taking Avodart and completely happy with the results.