How Different Types Of Estrogen Promote (and Hinder) Hair Growth

[Bagels]

I have not noticed any benefit of estriol in practice. And in theory, it seems like it would just compete for Estradiol for the same receptors. Given that it's weaker, I can see that actually hurting hair.

How much do you use and how do you apply? Any sides? Estradiol is quite strong

 

[whatevr]

How much do you use and how do you apply? Any sides? Estradiol is quite strong

I don't use estradiol any more due to the side effects, and I hardly use estriol any more either because I found it too weak.

 

[Arrade]

Well I just got my genistein in the mail. I'm healing from surgery so wary of new agents. Looked again online to see if it would be safe for my healing. Checked Wikipedia (which apparently I should have done first), and this unfortunately looks like a bust of an agent.

It's an angiogenesis inhibitor. Ie. It blocks blood flow. This is counterproductive to stimulating hair growth.

For example, VEGF is one of the primary stimulators of vascularization and has a positive effect on hair development:

Our study aimed to quantify the cyclic changes of perifollicular vascularization and to characterize the biological role of VEGF for hair growth, angiogenesis, and follicle cycling. We found a significant increase in perifollicular vascularization during the growth phase (anagen) of the hair cycle, followed by regression of angiogenic blood vessels during the involution (catagen) and the resting (telogen) phase. These results identify VEGF as a major mediator of hair follicle growth and cycling and provide the first direct evidence that improved follicle vascularization promotes hair growth and increases hair follicle and hair size.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC199257/
​

The problem is something with anti-angiogenesis behavior will inhibit the positive vascularization needed for hair growth, and this appears to be the case for genistein:

Anti-angiogenic genistein inhibits VEGF-induced endothelial cell activation by decreasing PTK activity and MAPK activation.

Collectively, our findings suggested that the inhibition of PTK activity and MAPK activation and the decrease in MMPs production and activity by genistein interrupt VEGF-stimulated endothelial cell activation, which thereby may represent a mechanism that would explain the anti-angiogenesis effect of genistein and its cancer-protective function.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21132400
​

Well, you can't win them all. At least it was cheap. Damn shame. An almost pure and easily accessible ER-beta agonist could have been golden. Who knows? Maybe it would still be good if the ER-beta agonism effect outweighs the anti-vascularization effect. But I'm not gonna take that risk.

Looks like equol and estriol are our only good/safe options for ER-beta agonism unless something else can come up.

Wikipedia lists the following as ER-beta agonists:

• 3β-Androstanediol (3β-diol) – endogenous
• 8β-VE2
• AC-186
• Apigenin – phytoestrogen[23]
• Daidzein – phytoestrogen[23]
• DCW234
• Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) – endogenous
• Diarylpropionitrile (DPN)
• ERB-79 and its active enantiomer ERB-26
• ERB-196 (WAY-202196)
• Erteberel (SERBA-1, LY-500307)
• FERb 033 – 62-fold selectivity for ER-β over ERα[24]
• Genistein – phytoestrogen; 16-fold selectivity for ER-β over ERα[23]
• Kaempferol – phytoestrogen[23]
• Liquiritigenin (Menerba) – phytoestrogen[23]
• Penduletin – phytoestrogen[23]
• Prinaberel (ERB-041, WAY-202041)
• S-Equol ((S)-4',7-isoflavandiol) – phytoestrogen; 13-fold selectivity for ER-β over ERα[23]
• WAY-166818
• WAY-200070
• WAY-214156

Maybe there is another good option in there. I'll probably keep looking in my spare time. The problem is most of these agents are likely so experimental, there wouldn't be enough information out there to tell us if there's going to be a problem or not. eg. for FERb 033.

Probably honestly best to stick with estriol and/or equol unless there's a massive element of desperation to experiment. My hair is so stable now, I have no need to take drastic risks. I'd prefer to stick with safer agents.

YOOO doesn't horny goat weed work on the VEGF pathway?
Someone should try it topically, am going to start using orally

 

[rclark]

Estradiol is good for hair. I can definitely say it helped regrow some of my temple hair (OK,
let's be honest, ten follicles, but who is counting?).

If it weren't for the side effects, I would still be taking it to this day.

 

[whatevr]

Estradiol is good for hair. I can definitely say it helped regrow some of my temple hair (OK,
let's be honest, ten follicles, but who is counting?).

If it weren't for the side effects, I would still be taking it to this day.

Classic story.

 

[sunchyme1]

Classic story.

lol its saturday morning, about 6am where you are, and what are you doing?

logging on to hairlosstalk.com

there is no escape

 

[whatevr]

lol its saturday morning, about 6am where you are, and what are you doing?

logging on to hairlosstalk.com

there is no escape

7:40 when I posted this mate. During the week on my morning train ride around 7 AM I browse H L T as well. Gotta keep up with the latest mouse cures.

 

[Georgie]

So I made the switch from the pill to estradiol valerate/progesterone (bioidentical) like 3 months ago I think. My hair hasn’t gotten any better, and In fact it’s gotten to a point now where I must wear concealer on my hair part which is obviously thinning and shiny.
My hair shedding is bad enough now that I can’t bring myself to count. I know that it’s picked up even more because the clumps that come out are larger, and the top of my head has gotten drastically worse in recent months.
I have also started to experience acne on my neck, chest, face and back. My skin is very very oily, my skin and scalp burns and itches. That’s possibly secondary to the hair loss as the worse thing about this. My scalp feels red raw without even scratching it. My mother pointed out to me a few days ago that my nape and around my ears was bright red. I did a scalp inspection today and it is red.

So some weird sh*t is going on. I haven’t stopped any of my antiandrogens apart from daro which was like a month ago. I may need to make the switch back to the pill sadly.

 

[Arrade]

Just FYI you’re probably using more estrogen than women

 

[Arrade]

So I made the switch from the pill to estradiol valerate/progesterone (bioidentical) like 3 months ago I think. My hair hasn’t gotten any better, and In fact it’s gotten to a point now where I must wear concealer on my hair part which is obviously thinning and shiny.
My hair shedding is bad enough now that I can’t bring myself to count. I know that it’s picked up even more because the clumps that come out are larger, and the top of my head has gotten drastically worse in recent months.
I have also started to experience acne on my neck, chest, face and back. My skin is very very oily, my skin and scalp burns and itches. That’s possibly secondary to the hair loss as the worse thing about this. My scalp feels red raw without even scratching it. My mother pointed out to me a few days ago that my nape and around my ears was bright red. I did a scalp inspection today and it is red.

So some weird sh*t is going on. I haven’t stopped any of my antiandrogens apart from daro which was like a month ago. I may need to make the switch back to the pill sadly.

Have you looked into Ray peat’s writings about progesterone?
And I’m sorry you’re experiencing that

 

[Georgie]

View attachment 89821
Just FYI you’re probably using more estrogen than women

This dumbass doesn’t know the difference between E2 estradiol and ethinyl estradiol. The pill uses mcgs of EE because it’s f*****g 10x more powerful than E2. What a deadshit.

 

[Georgie]

Have you looked into Ray peat’s writings about progesterone?
And I’m sorry you’re experiencing that

Dude I take progesterone. Women can’t just take estrogen on its own. We’d all get cancer.

 

[Arrade]

Dude I take progesterone. Women can’t just take estrogen on its own. We’d all get cancer.

No need to get mad at me....
I don't research female hairloss and never will.
I also don't research the doses men take of estrogen but I thought I'd give a heads up.. kind of comical if the above opinion I posted is that wrong.

 

[Georgie]

No need to get mad at me....
I don't research female hairloss and never will.
I also don't research the doses men take of estrogen but I thought I'd give a heads up.. kind of comical if the above opinion I posted is that wrong.

Nah dude I wasn’t getting mad at you.
I was getting annoyed at the idiot who posted that.

 

[Retinoid]

I think it is odd that men are taking estradiol when most men with male pattern baldness are NOT suffering from too little estrogen and actually usually have low or low normal total testosterone and high or high normal estrogen.

Consuming more soy (should be organic and preferably non sprouted), green tea, black tea, seaweed and certain fermented foods (a traditional Asian diet) will allow you to get more isoflavones and produce more S Equol. These isoflavones are more beneficial because they:

1) Activate estrogen beta much more strongly which is associated with a lot of health benefits (lower incidences of breast cancer, prostate cancer and inhibits ER-a from inducing catagen)

2) Acts as a competitive agonist if you have too much estrogen.

3) Acts as an agonist if you have too little estrogen (which, like I said, is usually not an issue).

 

[Georgie]

I think it is odd that men are taking estradiol when most men with male pattern baldness are NOT suffering from too little estrogen and actually usually have low or low normal total testosterone and high or high normal estrogen.

Consuming more soy (should be organic and preferably non sprouted), green tea, black tea, seaweed and certain fermented foods (a traditional Asian diet) will allow you to get more isoflavones and produce more S Equol. These isoflavones are more beneficial because they:

1) Activate estrogen beta much more strongly which is associated with a lot of health benefits (lower incidences of breast cancer, prostate cancer and inhibits ER-a from inducing catagen)

2) Acts as a competitive agonist if you have too much estrogen.

3) Acts as an agonist if you have too little estrogen (which, like I said, is usually not an issue).

I feel like the addition of equol has actually helped me far more than taking actual estrogen.

 

[Retinoid]

I feel like the addition of equol has actually helped me far more than taking actual estrogen.

I think with isoflavones it is better to consume them in their complex forms. S Equol is of course a byproduct of daidzein, but perhaps it works better when daidzein is also being absorbed along with genistein, which is strong in it's own right.

This is just my theory. Plus I love soy foods...

 

[Georgie]

I think with isoflavones it is better to consume them in their complex forms. S Equol is of course a byproduct of daidzein, but perhaps it works better when daidzein is also being absorbed along with genistein, which is strong in it's own right.

This is just my theory. Plus I love soy foods...

Me too. Tofu, tempeh, soy milk, soy sausages, soy cause. Yes.

 

[Retinoid]

Me too. Tofu, tempeh, soy milk, soy sausages, soy cause. Yes.

Soy sausages and soy sauce most likely won't have the isoflavones but tofu, tempeh and high quality soy milk will.

 

[Arrade]

I think it is odd that men are taking estradiol when most men with male pattern baldness are NOT suffering from too little estrogen and actually usually have low or low normal total testosterone and high or high normal estrogen.

Consuming more soy (should be organic and preferably non sprouted), green tea, black tea, seaweed and certain fermented foods (a traditional Asian diet) will allow you to get more isoflavones and produce more S Equol. These isoflavones are more beneficial because they:

1) Activate estrogen beta much more strongly which is associated with a lot of health benefits (lower incidences of breast cancer, prostate cancer and inhibits ER-a from inducing catagen)

2) Acts as a competitive agonist if you have too much estrogen.

3) Acts as an agonist if you have too little estrogen (which, like I said, is usually not an issue).

I'm using high dose mk7 for heart health, but it comes from nattokinase which is a fermented soy and a phytoestrogen. If hairloss is caused by lack of blood flow it should help me