How Different Types Of Estrogen Promote (and Hinder) Hair Growth

[IdealForehead]

Powder is a must? So a cream like this would suck? https://www.alldaychemist.com/evalon.html or https://www.biovea.com/eu/product_d...-CARE-with-Natural-Estriol-2-oz-60ml&PID=2438

i guess Biovea should be better. I would try minoxidil in the evening and estriol in the morning or smth

Cream is fine if you are bald enough to apply it broadly or planning to use high amounts to maximize blood levels. Currently i'm using a cream from Amazon with 1.5 mg estriol per pump 4-5x/day to blast high blood levels. Any more and i feel nauseous.

My scalp is still healing from surgery so i just apply to my legs and let it deliver via the blood.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B009...X236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=Estriol&psc=1

Eventually i want to switch to a powder so i can just add it to my usual daro/desloratadine/niacin topical mixture going forward. Maybe with equol also.

That biovea estriol is half the strength per pump as my Amazon one.

 

[Murkey Thumb]

I am still going down the Genistein, Lithium, wounding route along with Essengen once daily. I was just wounding & Lithium but noticed that my long gone crown area was totally free of pain when wounding, I really cant feel anything but the rest of my scalp is painful so i thought Genistein would be a off the shelf way of attracting more collagen and perhaps revive my crown scalp.

It being a natural EGFR inhibitor was just an unexpected bonus really. I will let you know how it goes in a about a months time or when the bottle runs out. I really didn't know about its Estrogen effects so will be keeping a close watch on my man boobs/libido too.

I am using Swisscode Pure Genistein which is expensive but even after a week of use my skin is definitely softer so something is happening.

 

[IdealForehead]

I am still going down the Genistein, Lithium, wounding route along with Essengen once daily. I was just wounding & Lithium but noticed that my long gone crown area was totally free of pain when wounding, I really cant feel anything but the rest of my scalp is painful so i thought Genistein would be a off the shelf way of attracting more collagen and perhaps revive my crown scalp.

It being a natural EGFR inhibitor was just an unexpected bonus really. I will let you know how it goes in a about a months time or when the bottle runs out. I really didn't know about its Estrogen effects so will be keeping a close watch on my man boobs/libido too.

I am using Swisscode Pure Genistein which is expensive but even after a week of use my skin is definitely softer so something is happening.

You don't worry about the genistein being an angiogenesis inhibitor? I bought some genistein but have chosen now not to use it due to this.

See:
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...hinder-hair-growth.113077/page-9#post-1649373

 

[Murkey Thumb]

You don't worry about the genistein being an angiogenesis inhibitor? I bought some genistein but have chosen now not to use it due to this.

See:
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...hinder-hair-growth.113077/page-9#post-1649373

No not really. I am kind of following a protocol from this thread but using a derma roller to induce wounding rather than a chemical peel. http://www.worldhairloss.org/index.php/forums/viewthread/9
I am not going to use Getfitinib or Erlotinib either as i wouldn't know where to get them from and i believe Genistein has the same action although probably not as effective.

What i will stop doing is adding DMSO to my castor oil as I think it is creating some sort of stack residue bomb which is not great just before bed as i am getting vivid dreams and sleeplessness. I may just go back to castor/emu oil mix.

The stack looks something like this;
Wounding x 1 weekly
Lithium chloride x 2 daily
Genistein x 2 daily
Essengen (minoxidil & 0.05% finasteride) x 1 daily
castor oil x 1 over night

 

[Sanchez1234]

Cream is fine if you are bald enough to apply it broadly or planning to use high amounts to maximize blood levels. Currently i'm using a cream from Amazon with 1.5 mg estriol per pump 4-5x/day to blast high blood levels. Any more and i feel nauseous.

My scalp is still healing from surgery so i just apply to my legs and let it deliver via the blood.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B009...X236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=Estriol&psc=1

Eventually i want to switch to a powder so i can just add it to my usual daro/desloratadine/niacin topical mixture going forward. Maybe with equol also.

That biovea estriol is half the strength per pump as my Amazon one.

The Biovea one is: "Each full press of the pump provides approximately 750 mcg of natural Estriol USP."
I can't seem to find the per pump dose for from yours @IdealForehead .

Looking for an estriol product to add but smoky naturials does not deliver in the Netherlands

 

[IdealForehead]

The Biovea one is: "Each full press of the pump provides approximately 750 mcg of natural Estriol USP."
I can't seem to find the per pump dose for from yours @IdealForehead .

Looking for an estriol product to add but smoky naturials does not deliver in the Netherlands

I calculated the dose of mine here:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...inder-hair-growth.113077/page-10#post-1649973

No issue with a weaker formulation. You'll just have to use more.

I'm doing 1.5 mg 4x/day but i'm aiming for max systemic effect right now.

 

[IdealForehead]

Over the past few days, I appear to be suffering from my first significant complication from blasting high dose estriol. Surprisingly my dick has only been affected maybe 20-30% so that hasn't been the big issue. My hot flashes settled down with 4x/day application too.

The big issue is I have been itching all over. It isn't so much exactly where I apply it. eg. I apply to my calves mostly, and my itching is all over. So I don't think it's a direct reaction to some other agent in the cream, although it might be. Maybe I'm just allergic to something else in the formulation. I've even had a bit of hives here or there. There's definitely something going on. It's becoming intolerable.

I've been using the "paraben free" formulation. I'm gonna try to get some of the "original" formulation. With any luck it's not the estriol itself doing this but rather something else in the cream and I can continue blasting with the other type.

Otherwise, I'll have to get that estriol powder sooner than later and just use it in tiny amounts to my scalp. Or switch to equol, which is currently in transit.

I am pushing my blood to likely nearly pregnancy levels of estriol which is not relatively common in an average male body. So who knows what is happening. My sister has mild eczema and I know I am prone to dry skin so maybe that is related. I googled and there is something called pregnancy-associated eczema, which may be related to estriol. One can only guess at this point. Need more data (ie. try and compare the "original" formulation) to figure it out...

Nothing in life is easy. lol. But I do like many things about the estriol and it's been fun so far. Hope I can keep going with the experiment.

 

[IdealForehead]

Okay well that was fun guys but it looks like my adventure with estriol is over, at least when it comes to megadosing.

I mentioned I have been itching and getting rash/hives all over with the big amounts of estriol I have been doing (aiming for pregnancy blood levels). Well I think I just figured out what I experienced:

Atopic eruption of pregnancy, Also known as eczema in pregnancy, prurigo of pregnancy, pruritic folliculitis of pregnancy, papular dermatoses of pregnancy
https://www.dermcoll.edu.au/atoz/atopic-eruption-pregnancy/

I have a family history of eczema so I am probably prone to it as well. I have had tiny bits of eczema once or twice in the past.

Estriol is likely the agent responsible for this pregnancy condition, and just like the pregnancy "glow" and pregnancy nausea I got on high doses of estriol, it looks like I got the pregnancy eczema as well.

It's too bad. It was really fun. Bridgeburn and HillTopLumber talk about how relaxing estrogens are, and I would agree. I found this very calming and enjoyable. The flushing gave me a warm feeling all over. It was nice.

I was just in the process of finalizing a deal for some estriol on Alibaba - I'm thinking now I shouldn't bother buying it. Too bad.

 

[whatevr]

Okay well that was fun guys but it looks like my adventure with estriol is over, at least when it comes to megadosing.

I mentioned I have been itching and getting rash/hives all over with the big amounts of estriol I have been doing (aiming for pregnancy blood levels). Well I think I just figured out what I experienced:

Atopic eruption of pregnancy, Also known as eczema in pregnancy, prurigo of pregnancy, pruritic folliculitis of pregnancy, papular dermatoses of pregnancy
https://www.dermcoll.edu.au/atoz/atopic-eruption-pregnancy/

I have a family history of eczema so I am probably prone to it as well. I have had tiny bits of eczema once or twice in the past.

Estriol is likely the agent responsible for this pregnancy condition, and just like the pregnancy "glow" and pregnancy nausea I got on high doses of estriol, it looks like I got the pregnancy eczema as well.

It's too bad. It was really fun. Bridgeburn and HillTopLumber talk about how relaxing estrogens are, and I would agree. I found this very calming and enjoyable. The flushing gave me a warm feeling all over. It was nice.

I was just in the process of finalizing a deal for some estriol on Alibaba - I'm thinking now I shouldn't bother buying it. Although maybe I will still and then just see if I can get away with a tiny bit on my scalp.

If I megadosed daro I'd be in a world of pain, but that doesn't mean I don't love daro in tiny doses. The same might still be true of estriol.

I think given the amount of androgen inhibition you get from Daro, if you add Equol and remove some DHT to stop it from interfering with the estrogen receptor, you can get away with only a miniscule amount of ER-ß stimulation which should de-miniaturize your hair over time, so you can continue using estriol in small doses most likely. However, I would love to see what sh*t like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAY-214156 could do for us.

 

[IdealForehead]

I think given the amount of androgen inhibition you get from Daro, if you add Equol and remove some DHT to stop it from interfering with the estrogen receptor, you can get away with only a miniscule amount of ER-ß stimulation which should de-miniaturize your hair over time, so you can continue using estriol in small doses most likely. However, I would love to see what sh*t like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAY-214156 could do for us.

I'm extremely nervous about trying estrogens again after this. I loved estriol. It felt great. But this eczema has been my worse reaction to any med I've tried so far. The skin is settling down with some cortisone creams I got from my sister. But it was brutal for a few days and very stressful in the context of my trying to get my scar to heal well. Having eczema coming up out of nowhere all over including on my forehead was the last thing I needed for that.

As much as I am curious, it's getting harder and harder to justify messing with things further when I'm no longer losing hair and just had a successful (so far) surgery to give me the best hair I've had since the day I was born. It's the first time in my life I've really got a good head of hair.

Of course if I lose stability in the future, then all bets are again off and I will subject myself to anything to regain control. But hopefully that never happens.

 

[whatevr]

I'm extremely nervous about trying estrogens again after this. I loved estriol. It felt great. But this eczema has been my worse reaction to any med I've tried so far. The skin is settling down with some cortisone creams I got from my sister. But it was brutal for a few days and very stressful in the context of my trying to get my scar to heal well. Having eczema coming up out of nowhere all over including on my forehead was the last thing I needed for that. Looks great now, but just saying, I don't think I can afford to experiment on my body with further estrogens for at least another 2-3 months to be safe.

I do expect I will still try at least one of two things - high dose transdermal estradiol cream (curious to see if estradiol warps my immune system in the same way as estriol - I think it will probably be okay) and low dose equol topically. I'm definitely going to NMR test the equol when it arrives, if nothing else as a parting gift and thanks to the forum and others who would like to try it.

As much as I am curious, it's getting harder and harder to justify crazy self-experimentation when I'm no longer losing hair and just had a successful (so far) surgery to give me the best hair I've had since the day I was born. It's the first time in my life I've really got a good head of hair. I don't want to f*** with it too much or take unnecessary further risks with my health at this stage.

Of course if I lose stability in the future, then all bets are again off and I will subject myself to anything possible to regain control. But hopefully that never happens.

I hear ya. Hope it clears up soon. I've never used high enough doses of any estrogen to get anything like that, my nipples are always the limiting factor. Even a bit of estradiol and they start to itch and burn (and grow). So estriol is the only thing that I would use for ER-ß, estradiol just has way too many sides.

Has your equol been shipped yet? I will probably start using it immediately cause I'm an impatient and desperate f***, but I'd appreciate seeing the test results just to know what I'm using and what the purity is.

 

[IdealForehead]

I hear ya. Hope it clears up soon. I've never used high enough doses of any estrogen to get anything like that, my nipples are always the limiting factor. Even a bit of estradiol and they start to itch and burn (and grow). So estriol is the only thing that I would use for ER-ß, estradiol just has way too many sides.

Has your equol been shipped yet? I will probably start using it immediately cause I'm an impatient and desperate f***, but I'd appreciate seeing the test results just to know what I'm using and what the purity is.

Yeah it's in transit as of last week I think by Hong Kong post. Should be here in a week or two. Not sure if I will end up using it or not.

I think estriol is the most immune modifying estrogen which is how I had this freakish (and probably very rare) reaction. I've even been having a dry cough the past few days. I have had mild asthma when I've had colds/coughs in the past and this feels similar. Asthma + eczema go hand it hand which really suggests estriol was doing some immunomodulation on me to trigger both these things (and not favorably). Anyway, skin should be back to completely normal by tomorrow or the day after at this rate so I'm not worried about it now. It's just a red flag that I probably shouldn't personally mess with estriol further.

Probably I also couldn't handle high dose estradiol. We're not all built like bridgeburn. That guy's a marvel.

 

[whatevr]

I've even been having a dry cough the past few days.

When I took letrozole (aromatase inhibitor that completely annihilates estrogen in the body even at 1/4 pill) - I was dry coughing for 2 weeks straight up from a single pill.

I think what you did is that you took so much estriol that you displaced most of the estradiol in your body from the receptor, so it's almost like you were on an anti-estrogen like letrozole or arimidex.

 

[SteveTabernack]

Yeah it's in transit as of last week I think by Hong Kong post. Should be here in a week or two. But then I'll have to get a day off to go into the lab to get it submitted. Then it will take a few weeks probably to get results, as it's a university facility and they have other priorities.

So it might be a while. If you just want to try it, you could always just try it in the mean time. I tried daro before the tests came back. I have been using desloratadine for months without confirmation. I will be getting my desloratadine from Geekee tested at the same time. I think the risks are low of them sending the wrong thing, but that's just my opinion.

I think estriol is the most immune modifying estrogen which is how I had this freakish (and probably very rare) reaction. I've even been having a dry cough the past few days. I have had mild asthma when I've had colds/coughs in the past and this feels similar. Asthma + eczema go hand it hand which really suggests estriol was doing some immunomodulation on me to trigger both these things (and not favorably). Anyway, skin should be back to completely normal by tomorrow or the day after at this rate so I'm not worried about it now. It's just a red flag that I probably shouldn't personally mess with estriol further.

Probably I also couldn't handle high dose estradiol. We're not all built like bridgeburn. That guy's a freak of nature. I think I'd be at risk for gyno. But I'm just curious to try it now at this point. I don't think estradiol will have the same immune modifying effects. I'd like to know what it will feel like. I experimented with steroid (testosterone enanthate) injections a few years ago for 3-4 months out of curiosity as well. I find it interesting how hormones can so dramatically change mood and physiology. Maybe it's not wise, but I still want to know.

Ugh, not good. I have estriol on the way, but already get eczema naturally.. brother also has asthma.

 

[IdealForehead]

Ugh, not good. I have estriol on the way, but already get eczema naturally.. brother also has asthma.

Yeah but is likely a rare and individualized thing. I have read about eczema, asthma, and autoimmune conditions and many of them actually get better in pregnancy for some people. It seems it can go either way.

Plus keep in mind I was mega dosing to pregnancy blood levels.

Probably also what whatevr said is partly correct, and this may have been the result of megalevels of estriol being unbalanced in the body. In the natural human body, there are never mega levels of estriol unless there is also high levels of estradiol as well.

But for small amounts of topical use those rules may not apply.

I obviously don't know, so your choice. But if I was a betting man, I would bet with small amounts you'd be fine. I was using estriol cream on my face and hairline for 2 months with no obvious issue until I started megadosing.

 

[Ollie]

@IdealForehead upon learning to make liposomes for your future solutions, could Estrogen prove to be 'safe' from a a systemic point of view because you could get away with using such small amounts that those estrogen doses would be irrelevant even to what is already present in a mans body ?

 

[Murkey Thumb]

You don't worry about the genistein being an angiogenesis inhibitor? I bought some genistein but have chosen now not to use it due to this.

See:
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...hinder-hair-growth.113077/page-9#post-1649373

I still think its Genistein worth a go for you Idealforehead if you cant take estroil. It is much less likely to have a negative effect on you and have the same affect as estroil as it has the higher affinity to receptor Beta then alpha.

"Due to its structure similarity to 17β-estradiol (estrogen), genistein can compete with it and bind to estrogen receptors. However, genistein shows much higher affinity toward estrogen receptor β than toward estrogen receptor α.[49]"

 

[jgray201]

Anyone getting any results from estriol?

 

[meetjoeblack]

Estrogen is known to have complex effects on hair. It can both promote and inhibit hair growth depending on the type of estrogen used.

The primary factor that seems to determine the outcome of estrogen on your hair is which type of estrogen receptor you are stimulating with that type of estrogen.

Types of Estrogen Receptors
The body has two types of estrogen receptors. These two estrogen receptors have dramatically different effects on hair growth.

1) ER-alpha
ER-alpha is the type of estrogen receptor you DON'T want to stimulate.

With hair, ER-alpha stimulation promotes catagen. Catagen is the cessation of hair growth. ie. The end of anagen (growth phase). After catagen comes telogen (hair shed). Any estrogen which stimulates ER-alpha predominantly will therefore stall hair growth and lead to hair shedding. (ref)

ER-alpha stimulation also may lead to osteoarthritis and osteoporosis. (ref)

2) ER-beta
ER-beta by contrast is the estrogen receptor you DO want to stimulate.

ER-beta signalling works by silencing the ER-alpha catagen signalling pathway. By blocking this catagen signalling, hair follicles can grow longer and spend more time in anagen. This leads to longer and healthier hair. (ref)

Types of Estrogen
To evaluate the usefulness of any type of estrogen, we therefore need to know to what extent they stimulate ER-alpha vs. ER-beta receptors.

1) 17 beta-Estradiol (E2)
The primary estrogen of the natural human body is 17 beta-estradiol. Estradiol binds equally well to ER-alpha and ER-beta. (ref)

Estradiol binds most strongly to the estrogen receptors of the natural estrogens. (ref) We can therefore use estradiol as a standard to compare other estrogen binding strengths, and rate estradiol as "100" binding strength for both receptors.

Because estradiol binds equally to ER-alpha and ER-beta, I would postulate that overall this may likely be considered a "good" estrogenic agent for promoting hair growth, but not the best as we will soon see.

2) Estrone (E1)
Estrone is the primary estrogen of menopause. It has been described as the "ugly estrogen". (ref)

Estrone has a binding affinity for ER-α of 60 and for ER-ß of 37 (relative to estradiol). (ref) This means it is primarily an ER-alpha stimulator, and thus can be considered absolutely undesirable for hair growth.

Estrone will lead to premature catagen of hair follicles. It is likely the reason postmenopausal women lose hair all over their heads and bodies.

3) Estriol (E3)
Estriol binds to ER-α with an affinity of 14 and to ER-ß with an affinity of 21. (ref)

This means it is the only natural estrogen with a greater ER-beta affinity than ER-alpha.

Estriol is therefore the primary estrogen we DO want to use for hair growth.

Estriol is most famous for shooting up dramatically after about 12 weeks pregnancy (ref), and it is credited in part for the fantastic glowing skin and long thick hair that pregnant women experience from this point of pregnancy onward.

Estriol has a half life of 6-9 hours with vaginal application, which may be similar to skin application. (ref) Twice a day application thus makes the most sense. It has a low affinity relative to the other estrogens (it is the weakest to bind), so larger amounts must be used if its effects are desired.

4) Ethinyl Estradiol (EE)
This is the primary estrogen used in birth control pills. Unfortunately, EE is a mostly ER-alpha stimulator. (ref) This likely makes it less useful for hair growth promotion (unless you are using it orally for chemical castration, which will help stop male pattern hair loss by shutting down all your androgen production).

Normal women can likely get away with EE usage in birth control pills because even on high dose contraception, they will still have their natural estrogens (E1, E2, E3) to provide ER-beta stimulation and help counteract EE's ER-alpha effect. (ref, ref)

However, EE will not provide benefits for hair in this context, and should likely be minimized or avoided compared to other estrogens if hair growth is the desired outcome.

Manipulating Estrogen Receptor Expression
As @Georgie pointed out in another thread, dexamethasone (a steroid) has been shown to decrease ER-alpha receptor expression by up to 38%, while having no effect on ER-beta receptor expression. (ref)

This means that topical steroids could in theory be used to downregulate ER-alpha receptors in the scalp and promote a more ER-beta predominant effect.

Dexamethasone is used in combination with 17 alpha-estradiol (alfatradiol) in a German product called Ell-Cranell Dexa. I am unsure of the ER-alpha vs. ER-beta stimulating balance of 17 alpha-estradiol, but presuming it is similar to 17 beta-estradiol, the mechanism of action for this product would make sense. The steroid will shift receptor balance towards ER-beta predominance, and estradiol will then bind to these increased ER-beta receptors, stimulating hair growth.

The problem with this approach is that topical steroids can lead to skin atrophy over time, so they are not a good long term treatment. Additionally, the same predominantly ER-beta stimulation can be accomplished much more simply by just using estriol cream instead.

So although it is interesting to conceptualize, I do not think the alfatradiol/dexamethasone combo is the most useful approach to manipulating estrogen pathways for hair growth.

Summary
In other words:

• ER-alpha signalling stimulates catagen (stopping hair growth dead)
• ER-beta signalling blocks the ER-alpha pathway (prolonging anagen and causing hair growth)

Evaluating the different types of estrogen:

• Estradiol has a 1:1 alpha:beta binding ratio, estriol has a 3:2 beta:alpha binding ratio, and estrone has a 1.6:1 alpha:beta binding ratio (ref)
• Ethinyl estradiol has "ERα selective agonistic potency" (ref)

Therefore we can conclude that if ER-alpha stimulation is a negative factor for hair, and ER-beta stimulation is a positive one, the value of each estrogen can be ranked as:

• Estriol (best) - 3:2 beta:alpha
• Estradiol (2nd best) - 1:1 beta:alpha
• Estrone (poor) - 1.6:1 alpha:beta
• Ethinyl estradiol (poor) - primarily alpha binding

Application
For both men and women, the most useful approach to estrogen therapy in the pursuit of hair growth will therefore likely be a topical estriol cream applied directly to the areas of the hairline where stimulation is desired.

Fortunately, estriol creams are freely available most places over the counter. I have been using this one myself:
https://www.amazon.com/Bioidentical-Supplements-Micronized-Bio-Identical-Menopause/dp/B004XJIDEO

I have read a higher concentration of 0.3% estriol can be used in compounded creams for acne. This can also have an anti-aging effect. If you are brave, you can use it on your face as well for these benefits. (ref)

Primary risks of estrogen therapy in general for men will likely be sexual dysfunction. I have noticed some mild erectile dysfunction when I am using large amounts of estriol cream, but it doesn't bother me at this stage. Other risks for all estrogens are of blood clots, increased risk of breast cancer, etc. (ref)

For my own part, I will continue to use estriol for both hair growth promotion and anti-aging effect on my skin as I have been using it for about two months now and it has appeared to be quite effective for both. Dosage can easily be adjusted by using more or less cream to minimize side effects.

No treatment for hair loss or skin care is perfect or well suited for everyone. Most men will probably want to avoid estrogen therapies even just in principle alone. However, if used correctly, estrogen is likely a powerful hair growth tool to consider for those who wish to utilize it to their benefit.

Thanks for the information.

I don't drink from water bottles. All the micro estrogen and GMOs are killing test. Not to mention, testosterone levels dropping with age.

 

[Kornel]

Where do you get estriol powder from? Do you just crush estriol pills?