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For bryan and Foote.

Discussion in 'Men's General Hair Loss Discussions' started by Guest, Jul 11, 2005.

  1. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    Then there is no edema of the scalp tissues in most people with male pattern baldness?

    http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... ight=foote

     
  2. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    No, according to a dermatopathologist I spoke with, most men with androgenic alopecia do not have evidence of edema. However, lymphocitic infiltrates are quite common and the fibrosis and collagen deposition are guaranteed.

    The pitting edema test works only if there is a rather large amount of subcutaneous fluid. It's very obvious if you've ever seen it. What Foote is describing tests capillary refill time and is used in the fingernails to test perfusion efficiency.
     
  3. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    I will have to take your word for it, since my medical knowledge is practically zero :hairy: :freaked: :hairy:
     
  4. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    If you ever see a pitting edema, you'll know the difference between it and a capillary refill test. Simply pressing on an area and waiting for blood flow to return tests the perfusion ability of the capillaries in that area.

    Edema is very obvious. Especially, prolonged edema.

    You don't have to take my word for it. You can look it up if you like.
     
  5. S Foote.

    S Foote. Experienced Member

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  6. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    Sorry, Foote.

    But, I don't buy the way you pick and choose only that which seems to go along with your theory.

    You're a crappy scientist and you mislead people.

    I have no edema on my head. I just did your test.

    Where's your proof now?

    You don't have any studies that back your claims from beginning to end. So, I will no longer respond or listen to anything you say.

    If you would simply read all the other threads on this site that clearly demonstrate that the end result is fibrosis and collagen deposition instead of lymphedema, you'd understand why you continue to sound like a jackass.

    Learn to read everything on this site. Not just what appeals to you.

    Also, if you're going to discuss microscopic evidence, post the actual pictures of the slides. Anyone can say what you say. You still have no physical proof of your theory, because you don't have the microscopic proof. I've posted pictures or links to pictures in numerous other threads. Find them...you might learn something.

    Also, your theory has basically been proven wrong by the introduction of apply poly therapy in in vivo studies. In case you don't know, it regrows hair and apple poly targets TGF-beta1 and TGF-beta2.

    Talk to CCS,just look it up for yourself, or actually look at someone else's post besides the one's that your pretentious self likes to post. You seem like you're desperate. I'm sure you'll just google it.
     
  7. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    :D :D :D

    Very interesting! :hairy:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

    Some concrete information that corresponds to my own balding experience :freaked: Where there is thick hair density on my noggin, almost zero sweating happens - while in the balding area, there is profuse sweating after running a couple of miles.
     
  8. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    You continue to amaze me, as well, Wookie. You buy into a theory that you can disprove by simply looking around and seeing all the men with full beards and full heads of hair. Where I live, it's quite common as I live very close to numerous Hutterite colonies and it gets awefully hot around here during the summer and awefully cold during the winter.

    Stop listening to Foote and read all the studies on this site that involve procyanidins from apples and how they've been shown to regrow hair even better than minoxidil. Then, look up for yourself what they target. TGF-beta1 and TGF-beta2 along with Protein Kinase C. You'll see that all that is necessary is inhibition of the pathway. Minoxidil is not necessary and neither is the blocking of the DHT formation
     
  9. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    Interesting...

    http://www.hairloss-research.org/february1.html

    :D :D :D

    Curcumin also has diuretic properties.
     
  10. S Foote.

    S Foote. Experienced Member

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    Wow :!:

    I think i will just leave you to ramble on in your fantasy world :roll:

    Normal people seem to have no problem grasping the realities of the evidence, nuf said :wink:

    S Foote.
     
  11. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    No, according to pubmed.com, there has not been a single study demonstrating that it is a diuretic.

    Curcumin is an anti-inflammatory, which means it will prevent long term edema secondary to such inflammation. That does not mean it's a diuretic. It attenuates renal fibrosis, is cytoprotective for renal tubules, and there is no study on pubmed that demonstrates it has an effect on any renal tubule transporter either in vitro or in vivo. However, curcumin can potentially alter the function of the CFTR in both lung and the kidneys. That has not been proven either way.
     
  12. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    Go play games on your computer some more. Then, come back and read studies from the rest of this site, like I said.

    It's you that can't figure out that topical procyanidin regrows hair and that the only pathways procyanidin targets are TGF-beta1, TGF-beta2, and Protein Kinase C. This has been seen in vivo in both murine models and human subjects. There is no effect on DHT whatsoever.

    If there's no need to inhibit DHT, then it makes your theory look ridiculous. Sort of like your posts.

    Face it. DHT inhibition is not required for hair regrowth, nor is DHT the cause of hair loss. It's upstream mediators are, however.

    I'll let you do the rest of the research. I'm sure you'll come out of your alcohol stupor soon, so you'll figure it out.
     
  13. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    :freaked: :freaked: :freaked:


    http://www.eyesight.nu/curcumin/Cucumin_Issue_01.htm

     
  14. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/12393936

    http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?IDX=CA2 ... &DB=EPODOC

     
  15. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

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    Docj077,


    I have some apple poly proanthocyandins. I had bought six months worth a while back. It has B-3 proanthocyandins from barley, C-2 from grape seed, and the apple B-2's. It also has aloe vera gel (NO releaser I think), abscorbyl palmitiate (excites hair cells in studies), retin-A (did you know that retin-A decreases androgen receptor expression) and propylene glycol.


    Im not "jumpin' in the middle or takin' sides (I really have enjoyed your posts and have learned a great deal from them. Youre a very smart man, bright future). Im just going to post a couple of things that *again* mysteriously "jive" with Stephen's theory (my position on Steve's theory is that I hope he can get it scientifically tested as he's put alot of work in it. It would seem unlikely that it could be true and so many could have missed it, but Im hoping a scientific test can resolve it for him. Its the only theory that can answer hair transplants and why they work).


    Here are my two points. Proanthocyanidins are used in edema. The Apple poly proanthocyaninds caused my hands to swell PAINFULLY after putting them on at night a few nights. I admit to putting on a bit too much (didn't drench my head though). It shifted fluid in me personally. Ive had this happen with prox-N once also. Minoxidil, if you really put alot on, will also make your hands swell in the morning............but youve got to put alot of minoxidil on to do that. My hands after the apple-poly literally hurt me and it felt like I had arthritis. Full of water. When you get your hands on the apple-poly you will find when it dries on your head it leaves a little brownish-residue and it contracts. Sort of like spilling apple juice on your hands when you were a kid. That "sticky" feeling when it "draws up" like wet leather.


    My second point...................Stephen are YOU listening? You'll get a kick out of this.: Cutting a pasting:

    "Herbal Breast Enhancement ProductsAfter research of various natural breast enhancement products, GrobustTM was ... Apple Cider Vinegar, Apple Pectin, Apricot Kernel, Arctic Root, Arginine "


    Gyno is a "diuretic effect". Its a shifting of fluids. Everything in that herbal product has been used to grow hair. Apricot Kernel is in L'Oreal's new serum along with borage seed oil and avocado oil. Arginine is a NO releaser (like pomegranate is..............lotsa people playing with pomegranate for hair now by the way). Apple cider vinegar no doubt has some apple proanthocyanidins, is a known diruetic, anti-inflammatory, etc.



    Docj07, Ive been able to explain away every point Stephen has made, but also have been able to see every point he has made. Its a double-edged sword with his theory. For instance...............the increased sweating capacity. Have you ever seen a cut out of donor area hair microscopically enlarged before a surgeon cuts up the follicular units for transplantation? The follicles and dermal papilla's are BIG. If your beard hairs all miniaturized to vellus follicles........................something would have to "fill" the space that those big dermal papillas once occupied. What would do it? Skin cells of course. What are skin cells made of primarily? Like all cells, they are mostly water. Of course it will evaporate more readily.


    See what I mean. Lots of anti-androgens lead to breast enlargement like flutamide, dutasteride, etc. We can either argue that receptor blockage leads to these feminine characteristics or receptor blockage redistributes fluids and leads to fluid retention in femine areas. I want Stephen to get his theory tested in a scientific way for his own satisfaction. The theory is probably a long shot, but there are so many *mysterious* coincidences...........................I think many here would like to know for absolute sure.




    I wish you guys could carry on as respectfully as your patience will allow. The threads with Stephen, Bryan, and Dave001 had alot of interesting info, but got so poisioned that they ended.




    By the way Docj077, are you indeed going to give the apple poly a shot?
     
  16. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    Michael, do you seriously think Stephen would EVER accept any scientific evidence at all that goes against his theory? I don't. He's had a long history of making excuses to explain unfavorable studies. I'm not saying this just to be mean or provocative, it's just the simple truth. He's in a state of denial, and I don't think that's ever going to change. He will NEVER be "satisfied" that his theory has been discredited.

    Bryan
     
  17. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    Duality of baldness theories?

    An "M-theory" of male pattern baldness?

    :freaked: :hairy: :freaked:
     
  18. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    I have fun watching you post. You always bring very interesting information to the forums like Michael Barry.

    The site you posted is very interesting and would leave anyone to believe that curcumin is some sort of super herb. However, one must understand that megadoses of the stuff can essentially shut down pieces of the immune system. Granted, that's when a person takes like 10 grams of the stuff, but it's ugly, nonetheless.

    From looking on pubmed, the only mention I saw of curcumin removing edema was in the context of it removing edema from the brain. I could find no evidence of it directly affecting any transporter in the kidney tubules. If I could find an article demonstrating that it effects the NKCC2 transporter or a sodium/potassium transporter, then I'd take it seriously. My personal experience with it has yielded no evidence of increaes diuresis. My input and output are exactly the same as when I started and I demonstrate no evidence of dehydration. However, thank you for making me curious. That was something I did not consider.

    If you find an article demonstrating it's diuretic effects on pubmed, or a similar site of equal medical importance, please let us know.

    Thanks.
     
  19. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    Michael Barry,

    Your post above ^^^^ about procyanidins was really confusing to me. Hopefully, you read this and can explain, but it sounded to me like the apple poly caused edema in your hands, but actually caused the removal of water from the underlying tissue in your scalp, which resulted in a drying and contraction.

    That's just plain odd.

    But, thanks for posting interesting material in a lot of good threads. You always make everyone work a little harder on this site.

    Thanks.

    As for the apple poly, I can't really find a cheap source anywhere as I want to take an internal if at all possible. I hate topicals with all my heart and soul, but CCS gives great techniques for their creation, so I might try them once again.
     
  20. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    [/quote:116df]

    Some proteasome inhibitors stimulate (BMP)s?

    http://www.hhmi.org/news/fuchs2.html

     

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