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For bryan and Foote.

Discussion in 'Men's General Hair Loss Discussions' started by Guest, Jul 11, 2005.

  1. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

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    Docj077,

    I was on my way to the movies when I made the last post. Re-reading it, I can see why its syntax was awkward.


    I applied the apple poly proanthocyandins to my head. Its a sticky substance. When it dries, it contracts pretty hard. If you flex your forehead, you can feel it stretch and "break" on your skin. Its like a coat of wet leather. It "contracts" the skin. Proanthocyanidin oligomers are extremely powerful antioxidants, so I know they aren't bad for the dermis. Anyway.................first few nights with a new topical, one has a tendency to put on a tad too much. I did with the apple poly. Put it on my head, and in the morn my hands were painfully swollen. Feels like arthritis might. They were full of fluid. I had to open and close them a few times and hold them up over my head a tad (while shampooing in the shower) and the numbness went away. That is a "fluid shifting" effect. If you overdo prox-N, something similar will occur. Same with minoxidil, but to a much less degree.

    Apple poly makes pills if you'd like to take them internally. However, we know that proanthocyanidins are in baby green apples. We know barley extract is in beer and bourbon whiskey, we also know grape seed proanthocyanidins are in red wine and red grapes with seeds. You could take the extracts of all of those internally or just eat one of the above every day along with your circumin, vitamin E, and green tea extract. In fact reservatol, was also an inhibitor of PKC or TNF if I remember correctly.


    You state you dont like topicals. There are two shampoos that I feel extremely confident to "help" with baldness. One is Nizoral and the other NANO. If you rotated those, left the suds in for a couple of minutes.....................................not a bad routine. Tricomin also makes a shampoo as does Folligen (barley extract in that). There is also a minoxidil shampoo available at lipoxidil.com at lipoxidil's usual outrageous price. They have a Japanese shampoo with proanthocyandins in it also there. There is one other shampoo that interests me a great deal called Nanoguard http://www.nanogen.co.uk/n/res_website. ... ductId=209 . The company that makes that makes a copper peptide product (very expensive) also. Supposedly this stuff uses the same technology that is used in grocery packaging to keep flavors in for a timed release of its ingredients. I had a bottle of this. Its too damned high for 200ml but the ingredients were ones that might help.

    They were beta sitosterol, african pygeum, stinging nettle, saw palmetto, green tea extract, superoxide dismutase, copper glycinate, borage seed oil (gamma linoleic acid in that is a prostaglandin E-1 analogue), and arginine (I think that was in it). Dove shampoo has borage seed oil and arginine now also. L"oreal Garnier fructis has green tea (as canella synthesis leaf extract), apple fruit extract, and sugar cane extract (pretty hgih source of beta sis), and limonene (a anti-inflammatory and probably has some abscorbyl palmitate therein). The L'Oreal anti-frizz serum used after it has apricot kernel oil, borage seed oil, and avocado oil (beta sis again). Revivogen has a shampoo that has the ingredients that the serum has, but probably not enough.


    So there are perhaps some shampoos that might "help". Alpecin uses caffeine in its shampoo and it made the EHRS 2006 abstract, but when I contacted them about doing a yearlong study instead of the damed four month one they have in vivo, they blew me off. So Ive blown them off. Test tubes are nice, but personal results are more import. Those are about all the shampoos that one might be able to use for extra help.

    I understad your aversion to topicals. Awkward explaining that to the ol' gal pal aint' it?




    Bryan,
    On Stephen getting his theory tested. I had hoped some super-sensitive edema test using imaging could spot excessive dirty lymph protiens or something. Ive not spent alot of time looking into that kinda thing to be honest. Ive suggested topical diuretics or contractory substances (like alum) for Stephen to get a guy just starting to lose his hair to try. They'd have to be things that have not worked in vitro for hair though. Pictures at one year?



    Bryan,

    I know you probably thought my interests in alpecin back when it came out was funny (TAGHL thinks it might up cortisol, which is bad for hair) back when it came out. However, Alpecin's response letter to me (from one of their scientists no less) stated that caffeine prevented the downregulation of the C-AMP gene WITHIN the hair follicle's papilla. It was 'novel' to me at the time that it was an approach to hair loss that focused on what happens after androgenic transcription that was not a remodelling agent, or a superoxide, or an "overcomer" of male pattern baldness like minoxidil. Thats also what is exciting about some of what Docj077 has been able to find out to me. The specific antigens released by the papilla and substances that can help countermeasure them. Ive been intrigued by this approach as even a really good receptor blocker isnt' gonna get 100% blockage all of the time, and we do see some uptick in receptor expression with anti-androgens.

    If I had to come up with a anti-baldness routine off the top of my head, it would be cut DHT, block receptor uptake of androgens by estrogen-mimicking compounds or receptor blockers, counteract the specific antigens released in the papilla as best one can, try and overcome the immune response (prox-n or another peptide). If a guy did all that, I think he could hold onto what he has for a long time, or at least until cloning was a reality. By the way Bryan, Britan is going to fund a robotic invention to culture cells for Intercytex's product. They are fronting a big sum of money. They must be pretty optomistic about it to do that. I know you'd know phase 2 has begun. Im getting excited about this now for several reasons.
     
  2. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bcl-2


    http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/15033191


    How is Bcl-2/Bax asociated with contact inhibition? :hairy:
     
  3. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

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    Wook,

    That last find of yours is exactly the kind of thing Ive run into in regards to Stephen's theory. The things that are diuretics or contractories used in hairloss are always proven in at least one study to have a direct effect on hair cells, etc.

    Thats the first study (other than one about minoxidil's possible prostaglandin upping ablility---however mild) that would indicate a direct stimulation of minoxidil on hair and not just surrounding tissue if you arent convinced by opening potassium channel-ablility a "direct" effect.


    Thats a good find though. Im sure Bryan would like it.
     
  4. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    This is in vitro, but I'm sure you'll like to know that minoxidils effects are more based upon its ability to cause proliferation of DPCs and to prevent apoptosis of said cells. It's a start, but I'll see if I can find some newer research.

    1: J Dermatol Sci. 2004 Apr;34(2):91-8.
    Effect of minoxidil on proliferation and apoptosis in dermal papilla cells of human hair follicle.Han JH, Kwon OS, Chung JH, Cho KH, Eun HC, Kim KH.
    Department of Dermatology, Clinical Research Institute, Seoul National University College of Medicine, Seoul National University Hospital, 28 Yongon-Dong, Chongno-Gu, Seoul 110-744, South Korea.

    BACKGROUND: Minoxidil has been widely used to treat androgenetic alopecia, but little is known about its pharmacological activity or about the identity of its target cells in hair follicles. We hypothesized that minoxidil has direct effects on the proliferation and apoptosis of dermal papilla cells (DPCs) of human hair follicle. OBJECTIVE: To elucidate the mechanism of topical minoxidil action in terms of stimulating hair growth. METHODS: We evaluated cell proliferations in cultured DPCs by 3-(4,5-dimethylthiazol-2-yl)-2,5-diphenyl tetrazolium bromide (MTT) and measured the expressions of extracellular signal-regulated kinase (ERK), Akt, Bcl-2, and Bax by Western blot. We also measured elongation of hair follicles in organ culture. RESULTS: Minoxidil significantly increased the proliferation of DPCs. The levels of ERK phosphorylation and of phosphorylated Akt increased significantly 1 h post-treatment; percentage increase of ERK phosphorylation was 287% at 0.1 microM and 351% at 1.0 microM of minoxidil, and that of Akt phosphorylation was 168% at 0.1 microM and 257% at 1.0 microM of minoxidil. 1.0 microM of minoxidil increased Bcl-2 expression over 150%, while 1.0 microM of minoxidil decreased Bax expression by more than 50%. Moreover, a significant elongation of individual hair follicles in organ culture was observed after adding minoxidil. CONCLUSION: Minoxidil promotes the survival of human DPCs by activating both ERK and Akt and by preventing cell death by increasing the ratio of Bcl-2/Bax. We suggest that minoxidil stimulates the growth of human hairs by prolonging anagen through these proliferative and anti-apoptotic effects on DPCs.
     
  5. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    Michael Barry,

    This was taken from the following article:

    1: Nippon Yakurigaku Zasshi. 2002 Mar;119(3):167-74.
    [Hair growth effect of minoxidil][Article in Japanese]
    Otomo S.
    Pharmacological Evaluation Laboratory, Taisho Pharmaceutical Co., Ltd., 403, Yoshino-cho 1-chome, Saitama-shi, Saitama 330-8530, Japan.

    "minoxidil (1) induces cell growth factors such as VEGF, HGF, IGF-1 and potentiates HGF and IGF-1 actions by the activation of uncoupled SUR on the plasma membrane of dermal papilla cells, (2) inhibits of TGF beta induced apoptosis of hair matrix cells by opening the Kir 6.0 channel pore coupled with SUR on the mitochondrial inner membrane, and (3) dilates hair follicle arteries and increases blood flow in dermal papilla by opening the Kir 6.0 channel pore coupled with SUR on the plasma membrane of vascular smooth muscle cells."
     
  6. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

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    Doctor,

    Those excerpts prove that minoxidil has a direct effect on hair. Very good stuff.

    By the way Doctor....................I hope youre able to keep posting or keep us updated on your success with curcumin and vitamin E and GTE.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    i have also started vitamin e, curcumin, and gte treatment. i sent you a pm michael.

    peace.
     
  8. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    I will try to keep everyone updated as I progress. I'm really thinking that the more herbal approach with green tea, curcumin, and vitamin E will really benefit people who have hair loss secondary to a seborrheic dermatitis or some other form of inflammation. Those three herbs along with a 5AR type I inhibitor and nizoral should effectively cure that disease process. Especially, if those herbs are put in a good vehicle and made into a topical.

    Only time will tell if it's highly effective for people like me that have a receding hairline. I know that fibrosis and collagen deposition must be there according to the literature. The problem is whether or not I got on my treatment in time to do anything about it. I should not loose more hair, but regrowing it may be tough. It may be many hair cycles before I notice a significant change, but I'll post some results every 3 or 4 months.

    Remember on the minoxidil studies that those are in vitro. I can't find anything for in vivo evidence that would prove that's what happens in the human scalp. However, I also kind find anything that disproves it. Time will tell on that one.
     
  9. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

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    Docj077,

    You mentioned a type 1 5AR inhibitor. Green tea does that to an extent I believe? Did you mean type 2?


    Also, If you want frontal regrowth, if you have a chance look at these pictures of Bryan Shelton on close to two years of prox-n http://www.hairlosstalk.com/photogallery/pgbryan.htm . If uses emu oil after the prox-n...............it will "push it down" as emu penetrates human skin better than about anything known. Emu is also the closest thing to human skin that we know of, hence giving the skin-remodelling peptides "skin" to work with. If you did both for about a year or so.................I would bet that you would "revive all that was revivable" in your frontal recession. Dr. Loren Pickart, inventor of Folligen, and founder of the GHK-CU peptide complex in Tricomin, sells an emu fortified with saw palmetto oil. If you were willing to do a topical for one year to see if you could "grow a little back"............................that would be what I'd try.

    I liked the simple elegance of the three herbs you picked out of the male pattern baldness-research list. There was one other internal I though might help on that list because the gamma linolenic acid therein would act as a prostaglandin-E1 analogue and that was borage oil. I think male pattern baldness-research has mega-GLA listed in its primary treatment protocol suggestions. I do know this about GLA however, if you get a bunch of ALA.........................it supposedly works against the good effect of GLA. I read that somewhere, but forgot where but it stuck in my mind. They are both in revivogen. Perhaps revivo would work much better without the ALA. I know the borage oil has made my hair noticeably darker in the past year or so (topical usage).



    Personally, Ive incorporated the herbs in my regimine..................but I sure am wishin' Intercytex luck in its phase two cloning trials. I'd love to get a zillion hair cells shot in my scalp and have Brad Pitt hair like I did 16-17 years ago instead of the Jude Law hair I have now. Best of luck
     
  10. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    EGCG in green tea inhibits both type 1 and type 2, but it's more potent against type 1.
     
  11. supercop

    supercop New Member

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    AKT ACTIVATION OR DEACTIVATION - WHICH ONE GROWS HAIR

    Hi Are you guys still around?

    Re: AKT ACTIVATION OR DEACTIVATION - WHICH ONE GROWS HAIR?


    Hi, I'm referring to the action mechanisms of:

    MINOXIDIL (ROGAINE)
    GRAPESEED EXTRACT
    EGCG
    (Activates Akt phosphorylation)

    AND

    CAFFEINE
    Daidzen
    EGCG?!?
    (Deactivates Akt phophorylation)

    FYI:
    now for those who are newbs like me, Akt is simply a protein, think of it as that, has 3 forms in the body, Akt1, 2, 3. We are interested in AKT2. Now Akt2 deficiency is implicated in hair loss accdg. to what I've read so far..

    Anyway, some references I've read EGCG promotes Akt activation, while one says otherwise.

    I for one lost a lot of hair (all over my body and scalp) because of taking Guggul or Guggulsterone, a known weight loss ayurvedic supplement that I actually took for acne and not losing weight. THEN I FOUND OUT THE OTHER DAY THAT IT ALSO DEACTIVES Akt!!! AND THAT Akt IS IMPLICATED IN CANCER GROWTH, AND THAT GUGGUL IS USED TO TREAT CANCER AS WELL! CHEMOTHERAPEUTICS === POTENTIAL HAIR LOSS... RING A BELL NOW?

    Can we have everybody's input on this? I am SOOO CONFUSED.
    Is Michael Barry here? Hi sir?

    Should I not use Rogaine because I'd have to do it forever?
     

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