Docj077, I was on my way to the movies when I made the last post. Re-reading it, I can see why its syntax was awkward. I applied the apple poly proanthocyandins to my head. Its a sticky substance. When it dries, it contracts pretty hard. If you flex your forehead, you can feel it stretch and "break" on your skin. Its like a coat of wet leather. It "contracts" the skin. Proanthocyanidin oligomers are extremely powerful antioxidants, so I know they aren't bad for the dermis. Anyway.................first few nights with a new topical, one has a tendency to put on a tad too much. I did with the apple poly. Put it on my head, and in the morn my hands were painfully swollen. Feels like arthritis might. They were full of fluid. I had to open and close them a few times and hold them up over my head a tad (while shampooing in the shower) and the numbness went away. That is a "fluid shifting" effect. If you overdo prox-N, something similar will occur. Same with minoxidil, but to a much less degree. Apple poly makes pills if you'd like to take them internally. However, we know that proanthocyanidins are in baby green apples. We know barley extract is in beer and bourbon whiskey, we also know grape seed proanthocyanidins are in red wine and red grapes with seeds. You could take the extracts of all of those internally or just eat one of the above every day along with your circumin, vitamin E, and green tea extract. In fact reservatol, was also an inhibitor of PKC or TNF if I remember correctly. You state you dont like topicals. There are two shampoos that I feel extremely confident to "help" with baldness. One is Nizoral and the other NANO. If you rotated those, left the suds in for a couple of minutes.....................................not a bad routine. Tricomin also makes a shampoo as does Folligen (barley extract in that). There is also a minoxidil shampoo available at lipoxidil.com at lipoxidil's usual outrageous price. They have a Japanese shampoo with proanthocyandins in it also there. There is one other shampoo that interests me a great deal called Nanoguard http://www.nanogen.co.uk/n/res_website. ... ductId=209 . The company that makes that makes a copper peptide product (very expensive) also. Supposedly this stuff uses the same technology that is used in grocery packaging to keep flavors in for a timed release of its ingredients. I had a bottle of this. Its too damned high for 200ml but the ingredients were ones that might help. They were beta sitosterol, african pygeum, stinging nettle, saw palmetto, green tea extract, superoxide dismutase, copper glycinate, borage seed oil (gamma linoleic acid in that is a prostaglandin E-1 analogue), and arginine (I think that was in it). Dove shampoo has borage seed oil and arginine now also. L"oreal Garnier fructis has green tea (as canella synthesis leaf extract), apple fruit extract, and sugar cane extract (pretty hgih source of beta sis), and limonene (a anti-inflammatory and probably has some abscorbyl palmitate therein). The L'Oreal anti-frizz serum used after it has apricot kernel oil, borage seed oil, and avocado oil (beta sis again). Revivogen has a shampoo that has the ingredients that the serum has, but probably not enough. So there are perhaps some shampoos that might "help". Alpecin uses caffeine in its shampoo and it made the EHRS 2006 abstract, but when I contacted them about doing a yearlong study instead of the damed four month one they have in vivo, they blew me off. So Ive blown them off. Test tubes are nice, but personal results are more import. Those are about all the shampoos that one might be able to use for extra help. I understad your aversion to topicals. Awkward explaining that to the ol' gal pal aint' it? Bryan, On Stephen getting his theory tested. I had hoped some super-sensitive edema test using imaging could spot excessive dirty lymph protiens or something. Ive not spent alot of time looking into that kinda thing to be honest. Ive suggested topical diuretics or contractory substances (like alum) for Stephen to get a guy just starting to lose his hair to try. They'd have to be things that have not worked in vitro for hair though. Pictures at one year? Bryan, I know you probably thought my interests in alpecin back when it came out was funny (TAGHL thinks it might up cortisol, which is bad for hair) back when it came out. However, Alpecin's response letter to me (from one of their scientists no less) stated that caffeine prevented the downregulation of the C-AMP gene WITHIN the hair follicle's papilla. It was 'novel' to me at the time that it was an approach to hair loss that focused on what happens after androgenic transcription that was not a remodelling agent, or a superoxide, or an "overcomer" of male pattern baldness like minoxidil. Thats also what is exciting about some of what Docj077 has been able to find out to me. The specific antigens released by the papilla and substances that can help countermeasure them. Ive been intrigued by this approach as even a really good receptor blocker isnt' gonna get 100% blockage all of the time, and we do see some uptick in receptor expression with anti-androgens. If I had to come up with a anti-baldness routine off the top of my head, it would be cut DHT, block receptor uptake of androgens by estrogen-mimicking compounds or receptor blockers, counteract the specific antigens released in the papilla as best one can, try and overcome the immune response (prox-n or another peptide). If a guy did all that, I think he could hold onto what he has for a long time, or at least until cloning was a reality. By the way Bryan, Britan is going to fund a robotic invention to culture cells for Intercytex's product. They are fronting a big sum of money. They must be pretty optomistic about it to do that. I know you'd know phase 2 has begun. Im getting excited about this now for several reasons.