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For bryan and Foote.

Discussion in 'Men's General Hair Loss Discussions' started by Guest, Jul 11, 2005.

  1. S Foote.

    S Foote. Experienced Member

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    Just consider the actual reported facts of the matter concerning "doughnutting"?

    If reduced circulation in the grafts is going to effect hair growth, this is going to happen right after the transplantation.

    It could well be that this lack of circulation after transplantation is responsible for the shedding known as shock loss, right after the procedure.

    But after that, the grafts produce healthy terminal hair all over.

    http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... hp?t=17571

    So there can be no circulation problem in these grafts after the initial healing, simple.

    The long term balding in these grafts has nothing to do with hypoxia, the early studies clearly rule this out!

    S Foote.
     
  2. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    Really? Then provide a reference or citation to the medical literature supporting that claim. That should come as quite a surprise to all the men who got hair transplants years and years ago, and are continuing to enjoy their new hair! :D

    BTW, a reference just to the "doughnutting" effect isn't good enough. Show me evidence that hair transplants wither away YEARS after the operation.

    And yet miraculously, untold tens (or hundreds?) of thousands of men all over the world continue to get hair transplants. I guess nobody has slipped the word to them that hair transplants don't work! :wink:

    And YOU are making a laughable attempt to UP-play it. You're not fooling anybody.

    Actually, it's "similar" for only a very short period of time, and then it's no longer even a factor. It's only useful for kooks who try to push their alternate theories of balding! :wink:

    LOL!! I think if it _did_ happen at all, it happened very early on. After that, it was over and done with. Prove me wrong, Stephen! :wink:

    There ISN'T any "continued hair loss". Prove me wrong.

    Bryan
     
  3. CCS

    CCS Senior Member

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    so foote, when you disagreed with my donut argument, are you saying that after hairs go into telligen and grow back out in 6 months after a transplant, the hairs in the center of the erasor sized punch graft grow out to terminal length, and then donut LATER? I just want to double check that is what you are saying.

    Second, if endema causes hair loss, then why do the hairs on the edges of the graph, that make up the donut and are closer to the unhealthy sebacious glands, live on, while the hiars in the center, which contain sebacious glands from the back of the head, die? Is it because the outer ones can drain there endema into the nearby outside skin? If that can save the outside follicles, then why not the rest of the follicles in the balding scalp, and not any balding hairs transplanted to an arm?
     
  4. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

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    Bryan,

    The big 4mm plugs in which donutting was common have not been performed for some time now. By the early nineties, I think these old electric-drill punch graft plugs gave way to strip scar surgery which was mini-and micro grafts that moved 1-8 or so hairs per graft. Now, follicular units are performed in the majority of cases. This is why we dont hear much about donutting anymore, because in the new surgeries it does not happen.



    As far as what Bryan said about men "enjoying their new hair"........the problem with transplants is that they dont stop further balding. A man winds up "chasing his baldness" until he runs out of donor hair. Then he is screwed. Surgical forums are full of men who had a surgery at 25, and another at 30, and another at 35, and then the back started to bald.......................and they wind up in a wig at 45 with "hair islands" with hair in front and on top in front of a massive bald spot. There just isnt enough hair in the hippocratic wreath to spread all over the head. Alot of men gamble that propecia will stop further baldness only to find out that it merely slows the inevitable for a couple of decades, so their "crisis" is delayed.





    Collegechemistrystudent,
    Stephens theory has nothing to do with the sebaceous gland at all. Its clear to me by your responses that your mixing up Armando's idea with Stephen's. Two very different animals.

    Stephen,
    Collegechemistrystudents response is why YOU should either make a web page or start a thread that COMPLETELY explains your theory and every aspect of that theory in ONE LONG POST. You should also CLEARLY explain why donutting of grafts and failures of scalp reductions and successes of edema-fighting indications like NO-mimickers, peptides, proanthocyanidins, latanaporost, alpha-five inhibitors WORK in your opinion. One LONG post where ALL your evidence is clearly presented for any reader that you can link to when anyone has a question. Would probably take you about half an hour or so to write out.
     
  5. S Foote.

    S Foote. Experienced Member

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  6. S Foote.

    S Foote. Experienced Member

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    Yes, as i refer to in my last post to Bryan, the doughnutting pattern of loss in larger grafts is a longer term thing.

    There are many references to this and if you Google "hair transplant doughnutting" you can read up on this.

    The reason for this given by the transplantation industry is just not valid in my opinion. The early studies compared with modern knowledge rule out the hypoxia excuse.

    My theory concerns the resistence of the surrounding dermal tissue to follicle enlargement. I am saying that increased tissue fluid pressure in the scalp tends to force dermal cells into the hollow space of the growing follicle. This increases the resistence to follicle enlargement stopping this through normal contact inhibition of cell growth.

    http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/99/6/3609

    In this same link you can see the effect of the matrix effect in allowing cell multiplication.

    In my opinion, the common factor in survival of terminal follicles transplanted to the male pattern baldness area, is the formation of scar tissue.

    This forms a natural matrix or scaffold around the follicles, that allows the follicles to enlarge fully in future cycles.

    This same principle is becoming accepted in modern hair multiplication (HM) research.

    http://www.hairlosshelp.com/hair_clonin ... henik3.cfm

    What the dougjnutting patern of loss in large grafts shows, is the only follicles that survive long term after transplantation to the male pattern baldness area, are those right next to the transplantation scar.

    In my opinion, the much better results of the modern mini or micro grafts (call them what you will). is the fibrose matrix of scar tissue that forms around the follicles. This protects them from the external scalp conditions that cause male pattern baldness in my opinion.

    S Foote.
     
  7. S Foote.

    S Foote. Experienced Member

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    It would take a lot longer Michael, but i will try to get around to doing this.

    I find myself with a lot less time at the moment to persue my theory because of personal reasons.

    It is also important that i continue to concentrate on professional input. Talk is cheap on these forums as you know, the way forward is professional testing.

    Regards.

    S Foote.
     
  8. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    Uhhh....in case you didn't understand what I meant the first time, I'll draw you a picture: I'm saying that "doughnutting" starts occurring (probably early on, although nobody can be really sure about that, since there is no published information on it), reaches a certain point, then stops advancing. I'm not claiming that IT ALL GROWS BACK, dumbbell, I'm saying that it reaches a maximum at some point and then stabilizes, with no further loss afterwards.

    I've already explained to you how I feel about that. It could well be that the doughnutting occurred PRIOR to the first haircount. It could also be that doughnutting doesn't occur with 100% consistency, and so maybe it didn't happen at all in the Nordstrom study. We don't really know which is the correct answer.

    Not necessarily. That's your own personal "spin" that you like to put on it.

    More "spin" from you! :D

    Stop using "doughnutting" in some pathetic attempt to support your kooky theory. I'm not denying that doughnutting exists at all, what I'm challenging you to do is find any evidence at all that hair transplants wither away completely in the long-term. You can't do that, because you know it doesn't happen.

    Bryan
     
  9. S Foote.

    S Foote. Experienced Member

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  10. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    Can you fucking READ??? I never said it WASN'T permanent, goddamnit!!

    There are no references to when it occurs in ANY transplantation studies, not even the new ones. So we don't really know for sure.

    Yawn. OF COURSE they did. Why do you ask such an odd question?

    Yes. And it WAS eventually rejected, probably for that very reason. So what's your point?

    Jesus Christ, WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION??? For the last time, I didn't SAY that doughnutting will correct itself!!!!!! Can you even READ???????? Here is what I told you before in PLAIN FUCKING ENGLISH:

    "Uhhh....in case you didn't understand what I meant the first time, I'll draw you a picture: I'm saying that 'doughnutting' starts occurring (probably early on, although nobody can be really sure about that, since there is no published information on it), reaches a certain point, then stops advancing. I'm not claiming that IT ALL GROWS BACK, dumbbell, I'm saying that it reaches a maximum at some point and then stabilizes, with no further loss afterwards."

    If you can't understand any of that, go get a family member to read it and explain it to you. Christ...
     
  11. S Foote.

    S Foote. Experienced Member

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  12. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    Another nice "spin" on your part. How come you haven't been able to find anything at all in the medical literature about the ACTUAL true timeline involved in doughnutting? You're having to rely just on conjecture like the above.

    Even if it is (again, I'm saying even IF it is), so what? It has nothing to do with androgenetic alopecia, anyway. The GIGANTIC fact from the Nordstrom study that is so embarrassing for you and that you keep ignoring is the fact that balding hair follicles continued balding right on schedule, even when transplanted to the arm. No matter how much you try to throw up a smokescreen to that basic fact by talking about "doughnutting", I'll be there to point out the truth! :wink: :lol:

    Bryan
     
  13. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    :shock: :freaked2: :shock:

    Foote's theory could be correct?

    Here is an edema associated hairloss:

    http://dermatology.cdlib.org/114/NYU/NY ... 15059.html

    [​IMG]


     
  14. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    The edema is caused by the lymphocytic infiltrate. Not the other way around. Edema is the last step if it even is a step.

    I posted a study the other day that demonstrated that narrowing of the upper follicle area is due to fibrosis and lymphocytic infiltrates. There was little to no edema present in androgenic alopecia.

    The study you're looking at is frontal fibrosing alopecia. There is no known cause and no known cure for this disease.
     
  15. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    You are saying that follicular miniaturization via genetically programmed response to androgens precedes end stage edema, and, Mr. Foote appears to be proposing that edema, due to inadequate lymphatic efficiency, causing contact inhibition via indirect actions of DHT, is an initial step before miniaturization can even occur.

    A healthy scalp with thicker diameter hairs looks much different than the scalp with dying miniaturized hairs.

    [A] Miniaturization precedes unhealthy scalp

    Unhealthy scalp precedes miniaturization

    Many people often notice itchy scalp before they notice balding. That would seem to imply that is true. :freaked:
     
  16. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    You really like those emoticons. However, in both cases, you're wrong. They happen at the same time. Fibrosis and collagen deposition with possible lymphocytic infiltrates happens at the same time follicular miniaturization is occurring.

    An "unhealthy scalp" is a relative phrase and unless you have microscope with a biopsy from your own head, you have no idea if your scalp is healthy or not.
     
  17. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

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    I think, at 64 pages, everyone associated with this thread deserves a bronze star or something. Its got to be the longest hairloss thread ever. Very impressive.


    I wish Steve Foote could get his hands on a stuptailed macaque, perform a scalp liturgical surgery sututring a few blood vessles responsible for blood feed to the scalp, and see if the little creature lost its hair later.


    I think I read somewhere that if you put rogaine on a prepubescent macaque through puberty, the little fella wont bald. That struck me as odd as minoxidil isnt an anti-androgen. Very interesting. Wonder what Stephen would think about that?
     
  18. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    A scalp LITURGICAL surgery?? Is that where the doctors gather around the hapless patient and pray over him, hoping for a miracle?? :D

    Bryan
     
  19. wookster

    wookster Experienced Member

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    :? :? :?

    :freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

    You are saying that follicular miniaturization via genetically programmed response to androgens precedes end stage edema... yes or no...
     
  20. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    Seeing as how end stage edema has never been seen in a study involving a male with androgenic alopecia, I don't really need to answer that. Follicular miniaturization takes place at the exact same time that fibrosis and collagen deposition is occurring.
     

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