Folexen: New Hair Loss Treatment based on S-Equol

Strider

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Besides al the vague sides effects of Finasteride, there is one side effect that is scientifically proven in relation with finasteride, and i know for 99% sure that every Finasteride user has to deal with this side effect. It affects your fertility. Yes, the intern & extern validity of the studies could be better, but you really have to be 'blind' if you don't want to endorse this effect. The sperm quality will be better if the patient stops with finasteride, however it is still not known if this effect always will be reversible. See below for the finasterde studies.

Now i'm really wondering why s-equol should be better than finasteride. Why you're finasterde side-effects should go away if you're use s-equol and the DHT molecule is no longer able to bind to the receptor sites. Because you don't know if this effect won't trigger the same hormonal responses in the body as Finasteride does. Maybe you're body needs DHT to be able to produce a high sperm concentration? Maybe this is already studied? I don't know, I couldn't find a study of it. Next to that, I only see assumptions in this thread, and if it stays with assumptions in this thread, Folexen will be a very expensive Finasteride alternative. So please convince us with studies why Folexen is better ---> safer than finasteride. If you are able to do that, you're company will eventually be very successful :).

Finasteride studies

Studie: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0015028211000161

Finasteride-induced secondary infertility associated with sperm DNA damage (2011)

Case report
A 48-year-old man with no prior medical or urologic history presented for evaluation of secondary infertility of 4 years’ duration. His wife had experienced four consecutive spontaneous abortions (after documented biochemical and/or clinical pregnancy) and to date they did not have a full-term pregnancy or live birth. His wife was 37 years old and had normal menses and a normal exam by her gynecologist.

The patient’s medications included zopiclone (a mild sleeping pill) and finasteride 1 mg for treatment of androgenic hair loss, which he had been taking for many years. The patient was a nonsmoker and consumed one glass of wine per day for many years. He had no history of exposure to hazardous materials, radiation, or heat. There was no history of sexually transmitted diseases or erectile dysfunction. Physical examination was unremarkable, with bilateral testes measuring 18 mL and normal location and firmness. The penis, epididymides, and vas deferens were normal. There were no varicoceles.

Semen analysis done a year before confirmed a normal volume of 1.6 mL, sperm concentration 53 × 106/mL, and motility 58%. The patient had a normal 46,XY karyotype. The sperm DFI was 30% at this time and was unchanged when repeated 2 months later. The patient was advised to stop finasteride. Three months later, the DFI decreased to 21% and subsequent DFI after another 3 months improved to 16.5%.

The Ethics Review Board at our institution approved the study. All information remained confidential.

Result(s)
The sperm DFI done a year earlier was 30%. This value was unchanged when repeated 2 months later. The patient was advised to stop finasteride. Three months after discontinuing the finasteride, the DFI decreased to 21% and subsequent DFI after another 3 months improved to 16.5%. To date, there is still no documented full-term pregnancy or live birth.

Conclusion(s)
The significant reduction in DFI within 3 months of finasteride cessation and continued improvement suggests a causal link between finasteride and sperm DNA damage. We hypothesize that low-dose finasteride may exert a negative influence on sperm DNA integrity, resulting in increased pregnancy losses. We suggest that in infertile men using finasteride, sperm DFI should be measured in addition to semen parameters, and a trial of discontinuation of finasteride may be warranted.

Discussion
Most reports of finasteride-associated infertility have studied the effects of finasteride on spermatogenesis in relation to semen parameters (1). The current literature does not report on the association between finasteride and sperm DNA damage. To our knowledge, the present case represents the first report of low-dose finasteride associated with increased sperm DNA fragmentation potentially contributing to recurrent pregnancy losses in the context of an otherwise normal semen analysis.

Finasteride is a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor that blocks the conversion of testosterone to its more potent form, dihydrotestosterone (DHT). In the United States and Canada, it is used at a higher dose (5 mg) for the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia and lower dose (1 mg) for the treatment of androgenic hair loss. Earlier studies have shown that high-dose finasteride has been associated with a reversible decrease in sperm concentration and motility in normal men (2). Despite the decrease, the average sperm concentration was still adequate for normal fertility. The authors concluded that testosterone was essential for spermatogenesis and that DHT played no major role.

There have been only a few case reports and one randomized controlled trial on the effect of low-dose finasteride on spermatogenesis and infertility [1] and [3]. Amory et al. (2) randomized 99 men with normal semen parameters to receive dutasteride 0.5 mg, finasteride 5 mg, or placebo for 1 year. The outcome of the study showed that among young healthy men, finasteride 5 mg had a mild effect on spermatogenesis. Recent case reports have documented that finasteride 1 mg was associated with partially reversible impaired spermatogenesis in subfertile men or men with other contributing factors to infertility. In one case report of three patients, two patients had a varicocele and the third was obese (1). In another series of two patients, the authors suggested a causal relationship between the discontinuation of finasteride and the significant improvement in semen parameters within 3 months (3).

A systematic review of 11 studies demonstrated that the sperm DFI, an estimate of sperm DNA breaks, was significantly associated with increased risk for spontaneous abortions after IVF and intracytoplasmic sperm injection (ICSI) (4). A cutoff DFI of 27%–30% used by multiple studies has shown a statistically significant relationship with increased pregnancy losses. It has been theorized from animal studies that this association could be due to abnormal embryo development and impaired embryo implantation. The present case illustrates a patient on finasteride 1 mg for several years with normal semen parameters. This is in keeping with the fact that DHT is not as greatly affected by low doses of finasteride and that testosterone plays a more crucial role in spermatogenesis. It is possible that the high DFI (30%) contributed to the recurrent pregnancy losses in this couple, as has been observed for other couples undergoing IVF and ICSI. The significant reduction in DFI within 3 months of finasteride cessation and continued improvement thereafter suggests a causal link between finasteride and sperm DNA damage. We recognize that having a pretreatment sperm DFI would strengthen our observation, but sperm DFI, as measured by the sperm chromatin structure assay, exhibits a low degree of biologic variability, and there were no other factors that could explain the substantial drop in sperm DFI. We hypothesize that low-dose finasteride may exert a negative influence on sperm DNA integrity resulting in increased pregnancy losses. Future studies should be done to investigate the relationship between finasteride and sperm DNA damage. We suggest that in infertile men using finasteride with normal semen parameters, a sperm DNA fragmentation index should be measured and a trial of discontinuation of finasteride may be warranted.

Studie: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0015028212004487

Garcia PV, Barbieri MF, Perobelli JE, Consonni SR, Mesquita SdFP, Kempinas WdG, Pereira LAV. Morphometric-stereological and functional epididymal alterations and a decrease in fertility in rats treated with finasteride and after a 30-day post-treatment recovery period. Fertil Steril 2012.


The mechanism of the adverse effects of finasteride on male fertility is poorly understood. This present study by Garcia et al. (1) on rats shows that finasteride causes changes in the structure and function of the epididymis, as well as reduced sperm function and fertility potential without any significant alterations in sperm production. Most importantly, the sperm was found to transit more quickly through the epididymis. The mechanism of this increased speed of transit through the epididymis is unknown. The authors postulated that the poorer sperm parameters and fertility potential in those rats treated with finasteride were due in part to the rapid transit through the epididymis. They conjectured that the shortened epidiymal transit time compromises the maturation of the sperm with a subsequent reduction in sperm function and fertility potential.


The epididymis plays a critical role in the maturation of sperm and the development of the sperm’s ability to fertilize (8). Abnormalities of epididymal function could lead directly to infertility. For example, the epididymal protein P34H is essential for sperm-oocyte binding and fertilization: absence or reduction of P34H is associated with infertility and poor oocyte binding/penetration. It is clear from the present study that a 5 α-reductase inhibitor could impact male fertility by altering the function of the epididymis, which could lead directly to altered sperm maturation and fertility potential. Interestingly, routine sperm tests (count, motility, morphology, and leukocyte count) would typically not identify men with altered sperm maturation or fertility potential.


This is a valuable publication since the article adds experimental weight to the limited literature suggesting that the use of finasteride could result in male infertility. With this report and the other published studies on the fertility effects of finasteride, it now seems reasonable to suggest that infertile men consider stopping finasteride. The other publications would indicate that the effects of finasteride on fertility are reversible. What remains unknown is if the effects on fertility are completely reversible.

Studie: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0015028210029250

Finasteride-associated male infertility


Result(s)
After cessation of finasteride, the patient’s semen volume increased immediately, and sperm concentration was up to more than 10 × 106/mL 16 weeks after stopping finasteride. He is now trying to achieve pregnancy by intrauterine insemination.


Conclusion(s)
Cessation of finasteride improved spermatogenesis and allowed the couple to attempt less-invasive fertility therapy. In this case, the patient had impaired spermatogenesis before he started the drug. In such patients, the drug may further decrease spermatogenesis. We suggest that drug cessation could be taken into consideration for infertile male patients with impaired semen parameters who are taking finasteride at a 1-mg dose.
 

LawOfThelema

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some of the side effects of finasteride come from less DHT, some come from the other mechanisms that I outlined above. read that review, it goes over them in more detail.

i dont know how you determine if a side effect is "vague". thats a subjective determination. they are not vague to the people experiencing them. depression is real. anxiety is real. lethargy is real, insomnia is real. honestly id pick infertility over those ones as I never plan to reproduce.

infertile, or not, men on finasteride have reproduced, so it is not affecting every single user. as with all the side effects not every individual using the drug sees every single possible side effect. they arent all experiencing infertility.

maybe some on sequol would see infertility, but many wouldnt just like many on finasteride who dont.

the upshot is the other two mechanisms of sides besides the actual reduction of DHT wont be occuring since you are not inhibiting the 5aR enzymes.

did you know that depression intensifies sexual disfunction? if you are depressed any sexual side effect could be reproduced. did you know that men with depression have a reduced libido? so the mental side effect profile intensifies any sexual side effect.

this would result in a reduced side effect profile. this isnt a supposition. read that review. the mental effects of neurosteroids are known. not reducing 5aR in the nervous system would lessen the mental and sexual side effect. it is known that estrogen promotes breast tissue growth, etc. not reducing 5aR would result in far less gynocomastia if any whatsoever (DHT does have some antiestrogenic effect).

the side effect would be reduced. this is not idle supposition, it is based on existing science as to how the side effects from finasteride actually come about.

what is a supposition, which is wrong, is that they all come about from the pure fact of a reduced DHT concentration. this isnt true.
 

Strider

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some of the side effects of finasteride come from less DHT, some come from the other mechanisms that I outlined above. read that review, it goes over them in more detail.

i dont know how you determine if a side effect is "vague". thats a subjective determination. they are not vague to the people experiencing them. depression is real. anxiety is real. lethargy is real, insomnia is real. honestly id pick infertility over those ones as I never plan to reproduce.

infertile, or not, men on finasteride have reproduced, so it is not affecting every single user. as with all the side effects not every individual using the drug sees every single possible side effect. they arent all experiencing infertility.

maybe some on sequol would see infertility, but many wouldnt just like many on finasteride who dont.

the upshot is the other two mechanisms of sides besides the actual reduction of DHT wont be occuring since you are not inhibiting the 5aR enzymes.

did you know that depression intensifies sexual disfunction? if you are depressed any sexual side effect could be reproduced. did you know that men with depression have a reduced libido? so the mental side effect profile intensifies any sexual side effect.

this would result in a reduced side effect profile. this isnt a supposition. read that review. the mental effects of neurosteroids are known. not reducing 5aR in the nervous system would lessen the mental and sexual side effect. it is known that estrogen promotes breast tissue growth, etc. not reducing 5aR would result in far less gynocomastia if any whatsoever (DHT does have some antiestrogenic effect).

the side effect would be reduced. this is not idle supposition, it is based on existing science as to how the side effects from finasteride actually come about.

what is a supposition, which is wrong, is that they all come about from the pure fact of a reduced DHT concentration. this isnt true.

I can only say that you're right. I really missed some points.

Is there someone who knows an independent laboratory? On the stopmpb.com forum were some laborants, but since this forum is down, it is hard to find these people.
 

JDW

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are there any studies showing results of any kind from people taking this?
I'm talking 6 months of controlled tests producing percentages etc.

If not, why haven't these been carried out?
 

LawOfThelema

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as a company which went through a complicated chemical process to make s-equol, I'd hope they could locate an independent lab to test their product :p
 

JDW

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or offer us ANY kind of results showing trials...
 

lobsterlobster

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Apparently, the recommended 10 mg/day dosage will most likely maintain what we have. And if we experience growth, on average, it should be about 2.5% growth. I can't really wrap my head around that figure. How much hair is exactly 2.5%?
 

WillNotLetItHappen

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Apparently, the recommended 10 mg/day dosage will most likely maintain what we have. And if we experience growth, on average, it should be about 2.5% growth. I can't really wrap my head around that figure. How much hair is exactly 2.5%?

Well if it is the case that we can maintain, it would be absolutely incredible. I would surely spend the 24 EUR/month. We'll never know unless somebody tries it.
 

LawOfThelema

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maintenance is not good enough. i will take more than their suggested dose, and keep you all posted.

what i'll do is take hair counts for the objective part, pictures, and subjective reporting

over several month period
 

lobsterlobster

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Have you already ordered the product? I'm waiting for Folexen to tell us what the bulk discount is until I make any commitments.
 

LawOfThelema

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I ordered some just to get started. I would still like word on bulk discount and on the independent lab test to confirm active invredient. This is in everyone's interests
 
F

Folexen

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Hi guys

I've sent a sample to a lab and they said that the results will be ready in 2 weeks.

The regular price is $38 once the intro offer expires on 2012-07-14, and the following volume discounts will take effect:

1 - 4 $38 ea
5 - 8 $33 ea
9+ $28 ea

LawOfThelema, please remember that maintenance might be your outcome even at higher doses. We don't yet have data to show that doses above 10mg have a stimulating effect. I'll follow your reporting with interest.
 

Conpecia

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Hi guys,

Heard about Folexen as I'm unable to take finasteride anymore due to sides, I think I'd be a good candidate for trying Folexen out. I'm just looking to maintain at this point. Any regrowth will be a bonus. A few questions for Folexen or anyone else who may know:

1. I'd been taking finasteride for 5 years and then abruptly stopped 6 months ago. Will that alter Folexen's effectiveness?

2. Are there any other treatments you would recommend combining with Folexen to maximize effectiveness? I'd like to develop a solid regimen.

3. How long does Folexen take to work? Is there a buildup period and a shed?

4. When you say Folexen maintains, does that mean keeping hair as is, or can existing hairs thicken, rather than regrowing new hair on bald areas?

5. Does Folexen lose effectiveness after years of use?

Thanks guys. I'm excited about this treatment. I'll purchase some after I get some responses and I'll report whatever happens.
 

LawOfThelema

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i think they are mainly saying maintain, in order to be conservative. +2% change in follicular units is some regrowth, but it's just very mild. the control group had a negative change (around 1-2%?)

here is one thing i wonder about. i skimmed some of the studies on equol. in the main study done on the effects on prostate in rats, there are some statements to the effect that s-equol was unable to bind DHT that was already bound to androgen receptors. can finasteride do this? can it unattach dht that had already attached to an AR? if yes, then i could see this as something that could limit s-equols effectiveness. but i couldnt find anything on finasteride as to whether it can/cant do this.
 

WillNotLetItHappen

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maintenance is not good enough.

I understand your ambition, however maintenance side effect free is AMAZING! We have to be realistic here. Right now the only real option we have is finasteride/dutasteride. If you get maintenance from something else, this will be an incredibly exciting thing.

Who knows of the long-term efficacy in terms of regrowth. There were no long-term studies done(?), so it might well be more. I have a good impression of this and like the presentation here. There is science behind it and apparently a legitimate company. I'm still in my first year of finasteride, but if it doesn't do the job anymore or if I get too impatient I'm willing to try this.
 

LawOfThelema

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however maintenance side effect free is AMAZING!

I wont deny the truth of that


And I have to revise a prior statement. WHen I get this I will be doing counts of the hairs that I lose daily. I don't have the means to actually count the hair on the head. Hair count of shed is one reliable measure to gauge your loss. If my shed reduces while taking this we can assume it is slowing my loss and that more hairs would be in the growth phase rather than the resting phase.
 

lobsterlobster

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This may have been addressed, but where is the FDA in all of this? Also, why isn't this a much bigger deal online? I know it's new and everything, but the people talking about this product just seem to be the same handful of people and no one else.
 

LawOfThelema

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Part of it is equol was a thing in the past, and people are fickle. They concluded that since "densiti" or whatever the **** it was failed to convert them into an equol producer then equol must be a waste of time. But even in those who consumed vegetarian diets similar to what equol producers eat in japan and korea, not everyone was capable of producing even when they took the factors that correlated with equol production in those populations. Their bodies just likely didn't produce equol no matter what they took that promoted it. This is equol itself. You cant always go on consensus. Equol is pretty novel in the nutritional and medical world. To my knowledge there has been no supplement containing actual equol before. The fact that several serious medical researchers have suggested this for Androgenetic Alopecia / acne / other androgen mediated conditions, that the prostate health of those who are producers is better, and that it has experimentally been shown to bind DHT, but not testosterone, estradiol or other hormones is enough for me to try it. People have tried supps on less compelling information. I don't know to what degree the fda bothers about regulating supplemental products. the research slowly coming in (in addition to antiandrogen, it is a potent antioxidant, antiinflammatory, promote NO and cardivascular function... more potent than the other soy isoflavones which people stood by), and I'd suspect that someone would test this for Androgenetic Alopecia soon. A Japanese company has been testing it for other things for a couple years now. The fda never approved progesterone for treating Androgenetic Alopecia either but it doesn't mean that guys didnt get results that way prior to finasteride hitting the market...

My guess is eclipse nutraceuticals is a pretty small start up without the huge resources to expend on advertising and promoting the product. Promoting directly to the niche as they did with this site, is a cheap way to do it, and can be effective. They probably invested mostly in the equipment, and chemical process. There are few things that could be fixed up on their site to make them seem more like authorities on the subject which would boost confidence. I'd post more excerpts from the journal articles and maybe expand the faq. I'd add the information regarding more of the mechanism of how finasteride and dutasteride sides are believed by experts to come about. Focus on the neurosteroid part, and on the E/T ratio which is often overlooked over the simple fact that DHT is lower.
 
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