Finasteride Doesnt Reverse Miniaturization

[MaxPayne3]

Can I see this study?

My mistake 0,5 mg, not 2,5 mg.

https://www.bernsteinmedical.com/research/dutasteride-vs-finasteride/

The 2.5-mg dutasteride dose was consistently superior to 0.5-mg dutasteride in promoting scalp hair growth. The 2.5-mg dose was also better than the 0.5-mg dose at suppressing scalp DHT (79% vs. 51%), whereas it was only marginally better at suppressing serum DHT (96% vs. 92%). This difference in the dose-response of serum and scalp DHT to inhibition with dutasteride is likely to be due to the greater contribution of type 1 5α-reductase to scalp DHT concentrations.

5 mg finasteride suppressed scalp DHT to a similar degree as 0.1 mg dutasteride group (41% and 32%, respectively).

This suggests DHT inhibitors are dose dependent. You can get a great reduction of scalp DHT with a higher dose of dutasteride that's not approved even for enlarged prostate treatment.

That sounds like dubious science. How does DHT reach the scalp if not via the bloodstream?

A little part of hormones is also formed in tissues, not only in testicles.
If hair follicles are too sensitive to androgens, even a little amount of DHT can induce to miniaturization.

 

[abcdefg]

IMO as you get older if your hair is sensitive to androgens then its gets more and more sensitive with age. Once the hair starts miniaturizing its a whole different process then androgens. We dont know how to reverse or stop it. You need to be on the AA before it starts miniaturizing not after it started.

 

[CinnamonRoll]

I honestly think most men are just never aggressive enough about it to know for sure.

Unless you're taking 100 mg cypro, 10 mg minoxidil a day plus putting 7.5 % RU twice daily you haven't really found out what your body can or can't do. Or something like topical daro.

I see young guys in the transplant forums getting transplants all the time and think to myself "he could have probably regrown that and more with an adequate regimen. What a waste of time."

You're literally the first person I've ever seen suggesting RU58841 2x a day.
Is it because of the 1 hour half-life? I've wondered for the longest time if it wouldn't be more ideal to use RU at least 2x a day, and probably more like 3-4(though probably not practical).

But everyone seems to insist 1x a day is sufficient for something that's totally out of your body within a few hours.

 

[IdealForehead]

You're literally the first person I've ever seen suggesting RU58841 2x a day.
Is it because of the 1 hour half-life? I've wondered for the longest time if it wouldn't be more ideal to use RU at least 2x a day, and probably more like 3-4(though probably not practical).

But everyone seems to insist 1x a day is sufficient for something that's totally out of your body within a few hours.

It actually has nothing to do with the half life and everything to do with the fact that it's a topical application to the scalp that depends on maintaining continuous saturation of androgen receptors.

We are aiming to saturate the dermal papilla with local antiandrogens:

The problem is the dermal papilla is at the level of an enormous amount of bloodflow, and it is likely most things that hit it will eventually be washed out over time. We don't have exact studies to prove it, but RU is not an incredibly powerful antiandrogen, and likely won't bind "irreversibly" to the androgen receptor. Meaning, it will likely gradually dissociate over time and be washed into the bloodflow where it will rapidly degrade.

I do not particularly worry about side effects from RU although some people get them. It's not a concern for me. So my priority is to soak the dermal papilla as often as is practically possible to ensure a regular supply of chemicals.

This is also based on the fact that although minoxidil actually has a relatively long half life for topical application, it is still more effective twice daily. I think just about any topical compound for hair is going to be more effective twice daily.

This is just my personal opinion.

Darolutamide on the other hand has such a strong affinity for the androgen receptor that likely once it binds, it won't let go for a really long time. Something like that may be more practical to apply once daily, but still I feel better doing it twice daily. Controlling hair loss topically is not an easy task. You can't f*** around with it. You need to be aggressive in my opinion unless you have very weak balding genetics.

 

[1knox1]

IMO as you get older if your hair is sensitive to androgens then its gets more and more sensitive with age. Once the hair starts miniaturizing its a whole different process then androgens. We dont know how to reverse or stop it. You need to be on the AA before it starts miniaturizing not after it started.

Spot on and how many men actually do this? What's the old adage? You've lost around 50% of your density once your balding becomes visible to the naked eye. As effective as finasteride is, for some people, it comes down to a mixture of your balding aggressiveness and how quick you are to respond to it.

 

[abcdefg]

Spot on and how many men actually do this? What's the old adage? You've lost around 50% of your density once your balding becomes visible to the naked eye. As effective as finasteride is, for some people, it comes down to a mixture of your balding aggressiveness and how quick you are to respond to it.

yeah im one to talk. I dont use it. Finasteride has some issues with a lot of peoples view on drugs for a cosmetic problem. Maybe rightfully so I dont think a lot of doctors would be quick to hand out propecia like candy to anyone with very minor or unnoticeable hair loss. Your taking on some health risks for something that arguably doesnt physically damage your body.
So its hard to start on a life long drug which is a significant committment with time and finances that also carry some risks. All for a cosmetic problem a lot of people dont see as serious. Especially early on when no one even thinks your going bald anyway

 

[furrydome]

It actually has nothing to do with the half life and everything to do with the fact that it's a topical application to the scalp that depends on maintaining continuous saturation of androgen receptors.

Have you compared the results of 1x/day with 2x/day?

This all makes total sense... maybe we haven't been applying it often enough?

 

[furrydome]

Speaking of RU and other topicals, do we even know how long it takes to absorb, and how much the vehicle affects that?

If we're gonna apply RU 2x or even 3x per day, we don't want to walk around with greasy/sticky heads.

 

[IdealForehead]

Have you compared the results of 1x/day with 2x/day?

This all makes total sense... maybe we haven't been applying it often enough?

The main thing I observed when I first started using RU58841 2 years ago was that as soon I as started using it, my scalp itch went down tremendously. It was the first treatment to have this effect and it was a revelation.

I started by using it once a day, but I started to notice also that the scalp itch would typically start coming back by around 18 hours post administration.

This suggested to me the androgenic blockade was wearing off prematurely. Since then, I have always used it as well as all topical treatments twice daily.

The mild increase in greasiness of my hair and the cost is negligible to me. The most important thing is to keep my hair.

 

[abcdefg]

The main thing I observed when I first started using RU58841 2 years ago was that as soon I as started using it, my scalp itch went down tremendously. It was the first treatment to have this effect and it was a revelation.

I started by using it once a day, but I started to notice also that the scalp itch would typically start coming back by around 18 hours post administration.

This suggested to me the androgenic blockade was wearing off prematurely. Since then, I have always used it as well as all topical treatments twice daily.

The mild increase in greasiness of my hair and the cost is negligible to me. The most important thing is to keep my hair.

Scalp itch is exactly my problem, and im sure its androgen related in my case. Is it worth trying propecia or is it safer to try RU instead? I have never been very keen on the idea of taking an internal drug like propecia.

 

[abcdefg]

The main thing I observed when I first started using RU58841 2 years ago was that as soon I as started using it, my scalp itch went down tremendously. It was the first treatment to have this effect and it was a revelation.

I started by using it once a day, but I started to notice also that the scalp itch would typically start coming back by around 18 hours post administration.

This suggested to me the androgenic blockade was wearing off prematurely. Since then, I have always used it as well as all topical treatments twice daily.

The mild increase in greasiness of my hair and the cost is negligible to me. The most important thing is to keep my hair.

Did you ever use propecia? did that ever lower or change your scalp itch? You would think blocking the AR is what prevents the itch, and propecia should have a similar effect although DHT is still there plus now you have more T

 

[IdealForehead]

Did you ever use propecia? did that ever lower or change your scalp itch? You would think blocking the AR is what prevents the itch, and propecia should have a similar effect although DHT is still there plus now you have more T

Finasteride doesn't work on me. Neither does dutasteride. Not sure why but they don't lower my DHT at all. So they're like sugar pills to me. Useless.

 

[furrydome]

Is it worth trying propecia or is it safer to try RU instead?

Finasteride and Dutasteride are the only way to halt/slow the balding process across your entire head. If you only do RU, you're only affecting the spots where you apply the stuff.

Hairlines recede in the front, at the crown, and people forget - in the BACK also

 

[furrydome]

the scalp itch would typically start coming back by around 18 hours post administration

Interesting... what I wanna know is how much more we'd gain by going 2x/day.

 

[MorningGlory]

Finasteride and Dutasteride are the only way to halt/slow the balding process across your entire head. If you only do RU, you're only affecting the spots where you apply the stuff.

Hairlines recede in the front, at the crown, and people forget - in the BACK also

If that’s the case it would possibly explain why my donor area has grown so thick and strong in the six months I’ve been taking finasteride.

 

[IdealForehead]

Finasteride and Dutasteride are the only way to halt/slow the balding process across your entire head. If you only do RU, you're only affecting the spots where you apply the stuff.

Hairlines recede in the front, at the crown, and people forget - in the BACK also

I have meant to post about this some time but never did. Very important point. Thanks.

I have been balding 10 years now though at a very slow rate so I'm not in bad shape at all even now. For me, as I posted above, I get a very clear male pattern baldness itch when the problem is not controlled. This has helped me direct my treatments.

I have noticed over the past two years, between reapplications of topicals, the itch has spread to the nape of my neck and behind my ears. This signals to me those hairs are now becoming androgen sensitive.

To compensate I am now applying my topicals all over my head, with 80% of it to the top of the head, 10% around the perimeter of the posterior hair/ear line, and 10% to the horseshoe.

Even the horseshoe will thin & bald over time. A NW7's back density is nothing compared to a NW1's. Eventually almost no hair is safe. Topical treatment requires consistency, care, and liberal broad application. It's easy to miss or not apply to a certain area if you're not careful.

 

[CinnamonRoll]

I started by using it once a day, but I started to notice also that the scalp itch would typically start coming back by around 18 hours post administration.

I noticed this exact thing when I was on cycle. A lot less than 24 hours later(about 16-18) my scalp would start to itch, and by the time 24 hours had passed, I had started developing additional scalp sebum.

 

[Flagermus]

I think people exaggerate these findings. The study doesn't show a reversal is not possible, only for the hairs <40 µm. And looking at fig. 2. those hair have anagen phases of 1-3 months making them less than 4 cm in the length. To me it sounds like hairs that are thin but longer than 5-6 cm could still be salvable. Of course they connect the point of no return to the hair shaft thickness but most people don't have the tools to know the diameter of their hairs, and it seems like the diameter is strongly correlated to the growth phase length.


Does the study mean that it would make sense to try to boost ones hair that have miniaturized to <40 µm with minoxidil to increase the thickness of these hairs to >40 µm thereby making them salvable for the finasteride? Then maybe finasteride could take over and further increase the hair shaft diameter. In that case one could save a lot more hairs by starting on minoxidil at the same time as finasteride.

 

[bluecyclone]

Any thoughts on zero to no itch but rapid diffuse thinning over 2.5 years?

Minoxidil huge shed no recovery.

RU steady shed no growth.

Finasteride heavy shed, hairline finally showing recession.

Anyone have luck stopping everything?

 

[AnxiousAndy]

Any thoughts on zero to no itch but rapid diffuse thinning over 2.5 years?

Minoxidil huge shed no recovery.

RU steady shed no growth.

Finasteride heavy shed, hairline finally showing recession.

Anyone have luck stopping everything?

Can you share some baseline pics compared to how your hair is now? I've seen the pics of your shed hair and i'll admit it is quite severe, but you could be regrowing what you're losing just as fast. You still got great hair, especially for 41!