Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[Experimentality]

Now as far as Yar’s experiment, I personally would not do that. Not unless he was using an androgen that is weaker than testosterone, like a SARM or AAS since they are less androgenic than the androgens you produce endogenously, and could prevent T and DHT from binding to AR. There is a thread on this particular topic and some have had hair gains from taking such compounds orally. I can’t imagine using testosterone and expecting hair to grow though.

I am not aware of any research to date that directly links T to hair loss. Yes, by administration of T there will be conversion to DHT which is, as we all know, strongly associated to hairloss. The problem is that even Dutasteride only inhibits something like 60% of scalp DHT, leaving 40% untouched. Theoretically, a topical regimen could drive this percentage down further, but there are not many success stories out there of topical finasteride/dutasteride (there are, but they are not better than oral finasteride/dutasteride. Also the distinction between purely local action and systemic overspill cannot be made here). Driving scalp DHT down to zero would, according to all the research I did to date, be a cure for androgenic hair loss. Administration of T causes hairloss because there is always overspill to DHT, and even a minute amount of DHT can decimate hair. That does not mean that T itself causes hairloss!

To fortify these claims, I did some research on why T would not generally be associated with hairloss. Of course, we are dealing with a far more complex issue that just "this compound binds the AR, so it will induce hairloss". It all depends on the genes that are subsequently transcribed. This article states:

Downstream of AR there are many AR coregulators such as coactivators, integrators or corepressors. One of the AR coactivators, Hic-5/ARA55 (57), is highly expressed in DP cells from androgen-sensitive sites such as Androgenetic Alopecia and beard, suggesting that Hic-5/ARA55 can enhance androgen sensitivity in DP (58). On the other hand, another in situ labelling study showed that expression of another AR coactivator, ARA70, was weaker in the DP of balding recipient areas than in those from the donor areas (59), thus indicating that selective AR coactivators may be involved in the pathogenesis of Androgenetic Alopecia.

Also from this study:

Moreover, the finding that DHT increases inducible nitric oxide (NO) synthase (iNOS) from occipital DP cells suggests that iNOS and NO are downstream effectors of AR in DP cells (67) (Table S2). Other reported findings are that beard DP cells produce more stem cell factor (SCF) than non-balding scalp DP cells (68) and conversely that balding DP cells produce less SCF than non-balding scalp DP cells (69). However, testosterone did not alter the amount of SCF from balding DP cells.

In short, T and DHT have different downstream effects and cannot be treated on equal footing. The fact that they are androgens does not say much, only that they latch onto the same receptor. Fun fact: E2 can also bind the AR. Does it induce heavy epigenetic transcription upon binding? Hell no!

I would love to have someone point me at research that directly shows that T shortens anagen, because I have been looking for it for a long time. It should be research completely lacking the expression and/or use of 5AR enzymes to exclude overspill effects from DHT.

 

[Yar]

Я считаю, что использовать после использования эстрогена для отращивания волос - крайне глупая идея. Это похоже на саботаж, не для того, чтобы оскорбить вас или что-то в этом роде, но, честно говоря, это отсталая идея. И вы хотите это сделать, чтобы доказать какую-то глупую псевдонаучную идею о том, что современная диета снижает уровень тестостерона. Просто обращайтесь на хорошо изученном пути снижения уровня андрогенов, если вы хотите сохранить свои волосы.

[USER = 149144] @ Pls_NW-1 [/ USER] прав, лучше натрите голову воском, а затем продолжайте этот эксперимент, лол.

Тестостерон не является причиной причиной является падение тестостерона и падение гспг вследствии поедания продуктов с высоким сахаром и вообще распостаранения продуктов с высоким сахаром где так или иначе присутствует сахар

 

[Solxama]

Тестостерон не является причиной причиной является падение тестостерона и падение гспг вследствии поедания продуктов с высоким сахаром и вообще распостаранения продуктов с высоким сахаром где так или иначе присутствует сахар

Sorry but I have not heard anything more pseudo scientific in my life. I like you @Yar , but this is just stupid.

Please reconsider this idea, if you want to keep your hair. And if you continue with this despite these warnings then it's going to be like watching a train crash in real time.

 

[Get my hair back]

I am not aware of any research to date that directly links T to hair loss.

I haven't seen any studies where T depresses hair. But if you think about it, T androgen, yes it is less active than its metabolite DHT. But it can bind to A-receptors, albeit to a lesser degree (maybe 2-3 times?) And if you take into account the fact that there is 2-3 times more of it, why can't T suppress hair in androgenetic alopecia?

 

[Experimentality]

I haven't seen any studies where T depresses hair. But if you think about it, T androgen, yes it is less active than its metabolite DHT. But it can bind to A-receptors, albeit to a lesser degree (maybe 2-3 times?) And if you take into account the fact that there is 2-3 times more of it, why can't T suppress hair in androgenetic alopecia?

Did you read my post? It is about the gene transcription a compound induces. That depends on so many things like co-activators, integrators, co-repressors. I literally stated in my post that AR binding is just the metaphorical door: there is a whole house behind that door (the nucleus) which contains many items (genes). A thief would get many expensive items from the house (DHT inducing a large array of androgenic gene transcription), while a visitor takes none (T which likely induces none until proven otherwise). You are correct in the sense that T binds the AR "looser" than DHT, moreover, turnover rate of T is also higher and the dissociation constant for the AR is higher as well. However, what really matters is what happens "behind the door", what I just explained. T and DHT cannot be treated on equal footing until proven otherwise.

I stand by my point that T induced Androgenetic Alopecia is purely through conversion to DHT. Which does not matter in practice because there is no way to reduce conversion to zero except for 5AR-2 deficients. Hence, until there becomes a way available to completely destroy 5AR (if you would even want that - 5AR has many other functions than just androgen metabolism) T can practically be considered bad for hair (just through its conversion).

 

[Norwoody]

Did you read my post? It is about the gene transcription a compound induces. That depends on so many things like co-activators, integrators, co-repressors. I literally stated in my post that AR binding is just the metaphorical door: there is a whole house behind that door (the nucleus) which contains many items (genes). A thief would get many expensive items from the house (DHT inducing a large array of androgenic gene transcription), while a visitor takes none (T which likely induces none until proven otherwise). You are correct in the sense that T binds the AR "looser" than DHT, moreover, turnover rate of T is also higher and the dissociation constant for the AR is higher as well. However, what really matters is what happens "behind the door", what I just explained. T and DHT cannot be treated on equal footing until proven otherwise.

Do you think bicalutamide does a good job at addressing these issues?

 

[Experimentality]

Do you think bicalutamide does a good job at addressing these issues?

I would say that for an oral antiandrogen, Bicalutamide may be the only option to retain male body composition (except for gyno of course). This is due to Bica's unique mechanism that it actually promotes translocation of the AR into the nucleus, opposed to all other AA's. With any other AA, the androgen pathway is completely shut down because the AR will just remain static at the surface. The interesting thing is what the Bica-AR complex is going to do once it is inside the nucleus. It is definitely going to induce some transcription of AR-related genes: the current consensus is that it recruits co-repressors instead of co-activators (while other AA's recruit none since the complex does not even enter the nucleus). Clinical data suggests that body composition can be maintained through this mechanism, although it is unclear what this means for hair. Topical is of course always safer, and also allows the use of a "purer" AA like Enza, Apa, Daro.

Also, in extension to my previous post, topical Duta may be worthwile since it would certainly surpress scalp DHT more than oral Duta (personally I combine them for synergy, since DHT is produced everywhere in the skin. Oral Duta would take care of most of the systemic DHT (~98%), while topical Duta would take care of some of the remaining scalp DHT). Too bad there is not much research data on topical Duta available.

 

[franzliszt]

You are right, it is a very difficult thing to do. And the aim of his experiment is so pointless, he literally wants to test some pseudo-scientific theory that nutrition is more important then hormones for androgenic alopecia. That's some high level of not understanding science if you ask me. I still eat my normal diet, it's not too unhealthy, but I haven't cut out all the stuff he wants to, and still my gains have been great after just 5 weeks of HRT.

@Yar's experiment is not only idiotic, but absolutely moronic self sabotage.

This is what is so annoying, some people experience full regrowth without altering diet in any way, but in my case, diet absolutely affects results. Everyone is different, for all we know, people who's diet affects their hrt result may have an out of whack gut biome. Don't assume that just because it works for you, then it works for everyone. I'm sick of explaining this.

 

[Norwoody]

I would say that for an oral antiandrogen, Bicalutamide may be the only option to retain male body composition (except for gyno of course). This is due to Bica's unique mechanism that it actually promotes translocation of the AR into the nucleus, opposed to all other AA's. With any other AA, the androgen pathway is completely shut down because the AR will just remain static at the surface. The interesting thing is what the Bica-AR complex is going to do once it is inside the nucleus. It is definitely going to induce some transcription of AR-related genes: the current consensus is that it recruits co-repressors instead of co-activators (while other AA's recruit none since the complex does not even enter the nucleus). Clinical data suggests that body composition can be maintained through this mechanism, although it is unclear what this means for hair. Topical is of course always safer, and also allows the use of a "purer" AA like Enza, Apa, Daro.

Also, in extension to my previous post, topical Duta may be worthwile since it would certainly surpress scalp DHT more than oral Duta (personally I combine them for synergy, since DHT is produced everywhere in the skin. Oral Duta would take care of most of the systemic DHT (~98%), while topical Duta would take care of some of the remaining scalp DHT). Too bad there is not much research data on topical Duta available.

Some guys like SonicTemples are actually reporting temple growth on topical duta.

What are your thoughts on the safety and efficacy of topical bica?

 

[Solxama]

This is what is so annoying, some people experience full regrowth without altering diet in any way, but in my case, diet absolutely affects results. Everyone is different, for all we know, people who's diet affects their hrt result may have an out of whack gut biome. Don't assume that just because it works for you, then it works for everyone. I'm sick of explaining this.

I know diet can have some importance, but it will never be more important then hormones. And to claim Androgens play a secondary role to diet in Male Pattern Baldness is simply stupid. I never said diet is not important, just that Yar's theories are pretty silly.

I don't want him to loose his gains by trying to prove them.

 

[Almas_NW0]

Yar is a mentally retarded subhuman. Ignore it
Retarded, unable to use a translator. But as a Russian-speaking, I will tell you a secret: he knows shitty even Russian

He got the result on HRT. It cannot be said what role something extra plays. But I think this idiot will start talking about how giving up sweets helped him grow his hair, even though it grew before that.

 

[Almas_NW0]

Even if we assume that DHT alone causes baldness, we have no way to completely suppress it besides HRT. Bicalutamide with a 5AP blocker does not stop baldness. If we cannot block the receptors or it does not have an effect, all that remains is to completely get rid of T and DHT. I don't think it is possible to locally destroy DHT in the scalp. Moreover, it is difficult, because people go bald not only at the temples, but also on the sides and even the back of the head, like me

The idea of HRT cycles seems to me the most feasible

Perhaps we can replace T with nandrolone, which is not converted to DHT. But the idea of HRT cycles seems to me better and safer than experimenting with substances for bodybuilders.

 

[Experimentality]

Some guys like SonicTemples are actually reporting temple growth on topical duta.

What are your thoughts on the safety and efficacy of topical bica?

Very good. The amounts used are so small that liver toxicity does not play a role, and there are some reports available of very good results with topical Bica. The main problem is solubility, which is very poor. DMSO should not be used in my opinion (furthermore, it makes you and everything you excrete smell like rotten eggs), which leaves a pure ethanolic vehicle. Since the half-life is so long, a good protocol would probably something along the lines of:

1mg/mL Bicalutamide in 98% ethanol (maximum solubility)
Once or twice per week, light needle the scalp with 0.3-0.5mm needles. Apply Bica solution generously. Scalp should be dry within a minute again. Should not take very long either, maybe 5 minutes give or take.

Even if we assume that DHT alone causes baldness, we have no way to completely suppress it besides HRT. Bicalutamide with a 5AP blocker does not stop baldness. If we cannot block the receptors or it does not have an effect, all that remains is to completely get rid of T and DHT. I don't think it is possible to locally destroy DHT in the scalp. Moreover, it is difficult, because people go bald not only at the temples, but also on the sides and even the back of the head, like me

The idea of HRT cycles seems to me the most feasible

Perhaps we can replace T with nandrolone, which is not converted to DHT. But the idea of HRT cycles seems to me better and safer than experimenting with substances for bodybuilders.

This is simply not true. You are projecting your n=1 case to all male pattern baldness sufferers, which is not only wrong but also dangerous. Bica may not have "worked" for you (although I still think you terminated the experiment way too early), it can and will still work for many others. I feel sorry for you that you have had to resort to HRT to get your desired results, but fact is that the majority of people will not need it to get very satisfactory results. We do not know if we can completely eliminate DHT in the scalp, but topical Duta (possibly in conjuction with oral Duta) should come pretty close. I also disagree that HRT cycles would be safer than Nandrolone. Nandrolone is actually a bioidentical compound, found in minute amounts in the body. The skin metabolizes Nandrolone to DHN which is much less androgenic than DHT or Nandrolone itself. You cannot use 5AR inhibitors on Nandrolone monotherapy, because this conversion would be inhibited. HRT cycles are not safer because:

1. E2 is used in supraphysiological amounts; E2 is dose-dependently carcinogenic
2. Large hormonal shifts are unhealthy for literally every structure in your body

Cycles are not sustainable and should not be done. If you want to get on HRT, use physiological dosages and stay on it for life. Nevertheless, I admire your willpower and consistent documentation.

By the way, eliminating all gonadal androgens does not get rid of adrenal androgens. There will always be conversion to DHT.

 

[Pls_NW-1]

By the way, eliminating all gonadal androgens does not get rid of adrenal androgens. There will always be conversion to DHT

I try to explain this on this thread but nobody gets that. When you have a genetic defect with your adrenal glands, you're gone for good. Nor HRT will help you there.

I am happy that it actually does work for you Almas.

While I still have my hair I try to enjoy it as it where my last days with it.

 

[Experimentality]

But does this matter at all whether there's conversion or not? I thought that take on this was that every androgen causes their own expression, being that DHT is the one associated with hairloss, why is there a problem with the presence of other androgens (nandrolone in this case) that don't convert to DHT either way?

Yeah of course. It depends whether the genes associated with male pattern baldness are transcribed or not. For example, Trenbolone definitely causes transcription of at least some balding genes, as well as Stanozolol. As far as I know, Nandrolone is not associated with baldness, but that is without 5AR inhibitors. Maybe the same would hold with 5AR inhibitors, who knows. I think DHN was touted less androgenic than Nandrolone itself in research papers but then again, it depends on how this androgenicity is expressed (and not necessarily on the degree of androgenicity).

I try to explain this on this thread but nobody gets that. When you have a genetic defect with your adrenal glands, you're gone for good. Nor HRT will help you there.

I am happy that it actually does work for you Almas.

While I still have my hair I try to enjoy it as it where my last days with it.

Your hair looks pretty good in those pictures. If you would only have supplied those pictures I would not say you are balding at all. I think once you correct your hormonal imbalance (if it is possible) you should regrow whatever you lost.

 

[Norwoody]

Yeah of course. It depends whether the genes associated with male pattern baldness are transcribed or not. For example, Trenbolone definitely causes transcription of at least some balding genes, as well as Stanozolol. As far as I know, Nandrolone is not associated with baldness, but that is without 5AR inhibitors. Maybe the same would hold with 5AR inhibitors, who knows. I think DHN was touted less androgenic than Nandrolone itself in research papers but then again, it depends on how this androgenicity is expressed (and not necessarily on the degree of androgenicity).

Your hair looks pretty good in those pictures. If you would only have supplied those pictures I would not say you are balding at all. I think once you correct your hormonal imbalance (if it is possible) you should regrow whatever you lost.

What about anavar? Dbol? Boldenone?

 

[Norwoody]

I try to explain this on this thread but nobody gets that. When you have a genetic defect with your adrenal glands, you're gone for good. Nor HRT will help you there.

I am happy that it actually does work for you Almas.

While I still have my hair I try to enjoy it as it where my last days with it.

Yeah I think your hair looks solid too. I understand your concerns but you can probably make a good recovery on a regimen that isn't extreme.

 

[Norwoody]

1mg/mL Bicalutamide in 98% ethanol (maximum solubility)
Once or twice per week, light needle the scalp with 0.3-0.5mm needles. Apply Bica solution generously. Scalp should be dry within a minute again. Should not take very long either, maybe 5 minutes give or take.

You've really got me thinking about trying this. Bica seems to have a favorable molecular mass to prevent systemic absorption too. It would be VERY cheap as well. How would topical bica stack up against RU? Or would they be better to use concurrently? Thank you for your answers to all these questions, as always.

 

[Almas_NW0]

I always tried to take care of my skin, but it looked like an orange peel, it was oily and with black dots, no matter what I did
Now I take E and have stopped caring for my skin, only washing my face twice a day. And my skin is perfect, even the blackheads are gone
If you have shitty genes, no amount of grooming will help you. I doubt that he gives anything at all - I never noticed the difference. Bluepill lie.

 

[Almas_NW0]

You are projecting your n=1 case to all male pattern baldness sufferers

We will never have research on men. But even a study on women showed success only in 40-50% of cases, this is small and at best is a lottery. This is not even nearly guaranteed treatment. On this forum, only Ein and Maave got the result, all the rest continued to go bald (5+ people). At the Russian baldness forum, he did not help anyone. Perhaps it has an effect when used with Minoxidil, the effect of which is ambiguous for me personally.

(although I still think you terminated the experiment way too early)

You are as wrong as most when it comes to timing. If you continue to go bald after reaching full concentrations, elementary logic dictates that the drug is not working. I went bald 5 months after taking Bicalutamide, everything is extremely obvious. Apparently you are one of those who give Finasteride a year, then Dutasteride a year, then a year to something else, until you go bald. Since I'm smarter, I went bald before Norwood 1 and will get a perfect Norwood 0 because I was timing my drug testing correctly. While looking back, I understand that it didn't even make sense to try to use only the AP blocker, this idea was doomed to failure.

Nevertheless, I admire your willpower

Thanks. I had to be determined to defeat baldness. Yes, switching between hormones must be harmful to the body. But I very much doubt there is research on this topic. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of a good endocrinologist on this issue. He would be shocked that someone has such level jumps and would clearly be at a loss.
I feel great and I don't think HRT can shorten my life or harm my health.

Castration and nandrolone can be the solution to the problem? Unfortunately, using E is the only way to completely destroy T without resorting to castration.