Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[Ikarus]

So basically, a boy becomes a prettyboy with soft, supple skin, cute looks, clear skin, better complexion etc??? (and of course, better hair - how the heck could I have forgotten this!!)

In all honesty, it depends on your face structure... It’s minor feminisation, for sure. Transgender women have to get facial feminisation surgery for a reason, and that’s because they still appear like a male but they just look like a more feminine male. I just appear more neotenic... Main concerns are gynecomastia, testicular atrophy and permanent infertility; those are generally a big no for most people.

 

[Ikarus]

Accutane is the worst drug I've ever taken that I've never completely bounced back from. Still always have to use chap stick. And I never had any sign of hairloss prior, but about 7 months into an accutane course my scalp started unbearably itching and hair was falling out like crazy, which didn't subside after stopping it.

Me too! I only used Accutane for a month, and now my lips are permanently chapped... So glad I bulk-bought Aquaphor... In all honesty, the side effects of ADT are much more tolerable compared to the side effects of Accutane...

 

[Ikarus]

I was also on Accutane from three months into Bicalutamide for six months. I thought that the shedding was supposed to stop after those three months, but then Accutane happened and here I am now. It's been one year since I stopped Accutane, but I'm still shedding. I can't really say if it was Accutane or Bicalutamide that helped my acne, but I hate that drug so much. My lips were destroyed, my hair was everywhere, it's the worst drug ever.
I'm using other retinoids (Adapalene and Tretinoin) on my face for some uneven skin texture and obviously the bonus anti aging benefit, and I love use them. Even my under eyes and eyelids love them, although they were supposed to be sensitive.

Worst part is getting blood tests... Since my ALT levels went more than three times higher than it should be, I had to get blood tests basically every two weeks for months. I would get either two vials taken, or eight vials taken and it was painful! Sometimes I had minor bruising, and they had to put the needle into the bruise which was even worse... I had to visit hepatologists and even get an ultrasound on my liver, just because of Accutane!! I was only on 20mg/day for a month and it did so much...

 

[Ein]

In all honesty, it depends on your face structure... It’s minor feminisation, for sure. Transgender women have to get facial feminisation surgery for a reason, and that’s because they still appear like a male but they just look like a more feminine male.

Their faces don't become feminine at all. Hairline, brow line, jawline, everything remains the same shape, even nose stays huge. The facial bone structure remains the same, including the dreaded brow ridge and angular jaw. Facial hair including those bushy eyebrows remain the same. That's why facial feminization surgery is required, including bone shaving, rhinoplasty, blepharoplasty, laser/electrolysis, and pretty much all kinds of plastic surgery. They don't look like feminine men on HRT, they look like men, masculine men with good skin.

I just appear more neotenic...

We are able to look neotenous, because firstly we have good genes that make us retain juvenile characteristics and help us look younger for longer, and secondly, we didn't give androgens to destroy our facial bone structure (but I did get a small brow ridge).

 

[Ikarus]

Their faces don't become feminine at all. Hairline, brow line, jawline, everything remains the same shape, even nose stays huge. The facial bone structure remains the same, including the dreaded brow ridge and angular jaw. Facial hair including those bushy eyebrows remain the same. That's why facial feminization surgery is required, including bone shaving, rhinoplasty, blepharoplasty, laser/electrolysis, and pretty much all kinds of plastic surgery. They don't look like feminine men on HRT, they look like men, masculine men with good skin.

We are able to look neotenous, because firstly we have good genes that make us retain juvenile characteristics and help us look younger for longer, and secondly, we didn't give androgens to destroy our facial bone structure (but I did get a small brow ridge).

I mainly look more neotenic due to the effects of estrogen such as eyes which appear ‘larger’. I do have fuller cheeks, along with whiter skin and other estrogen effects. Luckily, I don’t have a brow-ridge; I have a forehead shape similar to those who are Korean.

Transgender people do experience feminisation, and they do appear more feminine but they just appear like feminine males. If people leave it too late, then feminisation will be insignificant for sure. I will put an example image which I found:

 

[I'mme]

In all honesty, it depends on your face structure... It’s minor feminisation, for sure. Transgender women have to get facial feminisation surgery for a reason, and that’s because they still appear like a male but they just look like a more feminine male. I just appear more neotenic... Main concerns are gynecomastia, testicular atrophy and permanent infertility; those are generally a big no for most people.

You realise two type of men are most sought after - the ones who are tall, handsome, smecks of high T; and the ones who are pretty - espouse both masculine and feminine traits, look cute and sweet. Take Shawn Mendes of about 3-5 years ago.

Spironolactone can cause permanent Infertility? Gyno surgery is cheap and one of the least risky. (I plan to opt for Rhino some 6 months down the line, but may instead have to opt for gyno if I get it.)

 

[I'mme]

@Ikarus this pic shows my face cut clearly. How would I look if spironolactone provides me some feminization? Would that be noticeable on this face?

 

[Itsnoahkennedy]

@Ikarus this pic shows my face cut clearly. How would I look if spironolactone provides me some feminization? Would that be noticeable on this face?

I think you would just look like a fem-boy, thats kinda what i look like, you can sorta compare the picture ikarus posted and apply it to your self, glowy skin, fuller cheeks, more feminine overall appearance in the face. Its a bit hard to imagine looking different but you can try to imagine what you would look like if those characteristics changed in your face.

 

[I'mme]

I think you would just look like a fem-boy, thats kinda what i look like, you can sorta compare the picture ikarus posted and apply it to your self, glowy skin, fuller cheeks, more feminine overall appearance in the face. Its a bit hard to imagine looking different but you can try to imagine what you would look like if those characteristics changed in your face.

I tried but I failed lol. I just hope I'm able to regrow with spironolactone with minimum to no sides.

Tbh, you look better now. You didn't have features to become top-tier /alpha male, whereas now ur face looks sweet as well as cute. More or less is the case with me.

 

[Ein]

@Ikarus this pic shows my face cut clearly. How would I look if spironolactone provides me some feminization? Would that be noticeable on this face?

Lol, no. Your face will remain the same. Spironolactone has little to no effect on appearance of male individuals, mostly because it just lowers testosterone a little, and binds to androgen and estrogen receptors a little. It possibly can't effect formation of DHT much, and presumably has lower binding capacity than DHT. Moreover, androgens have many permanent effects on male bodies, mostly because of the coactivator function, which initiates a cascade of effects after binding to the androgen receptors even if it's just for once. Henceforth, the gene expression is permanently turned on, until you put something in there to stop the gene expression, like a dioxin, more preferably attached to androgen receptors. It can be made receptor specific by using testosterone-dioxin, but it is definitely not recommended to anyone. Another way to mess up the gene expression is to prevent the transcription of virilization genes via corepressor function of a compound that attaches to the very same receptors.
Lucky for you, Spironolactone is neither a dioxin nor possesses corepressor function. On contraire, Bicalutamide has corepressor function, so the probability of having those permanent effects reversed is slightly increased, though not well established, because it's dealing with gene expression only via partial hindrance to transcription.

 

[I'mme]

Lol, no. Your face will remain the same. Spironolactone has little to no effect on appearance of male individuals, mostly because it just lowers testosterone a little, and binds to androgen and estrogen receptors a little. It possibly can't effect formation of DHT much, and presumably has lower binding capacity than DHT. Moreover, androgens have many permanent effects on male bodies, mostly because of the coactivator function, which initiates a cascade of effects after binding to the androgen receptors even if it's just for once. Henceforth, the gene expression is permanently turned on, until you put something in there to stop the gene expression, like a dioxin, more preferably attached to androgen receptors. It can be made receptor specific by using testosterone-dioxin, but it is definitely not recommended to anyone. Another way to mess up the gene expression is to prevent the transcription of virilization genes via corepressor function of a compound that attaches to the very same receptors.
Lucky for you, Spironolactone is neither a dioxin nor possesses corepressor function. On contraire, Bicalutamide has corepressor function, so the probability of having those permanent effects reversed is slightly increased, though not well established, because it's dealing with gene expression only via partial hindrance to transcription.

Ein just remember that I was so afraid of science that I chose Business/commerce the very first time I got chance ie, in +1.
I will take 10+ minutes to understand this whole reply haha

 

[I'mme]

Lol, no. Your face will remain the same. Spironolactone has little to no effect on appearance of male individuals, mostly because it just lowers testosterone a little, and binds to androgen and estrogen receptors a little. It possibly can't effect formation of DHT much, and presumably has lower binding capacity than DHT. Moreover, androgens have many permanent effects on male bodies, mostly because of the coactivator function, which initiates a cascade of effects after binding to the androgen receptors even if it's just for once. Henceforth, the gene expression is permanently turned on, until you put something in there to stop the gene expression, like a dioxin, more preferably attached to androgen receptors. It can be made receptor specific by using testosterone-dioxin, but it is definitely not recommended to anyone. Another way to mess up the gene expression is to prevent the transcription of virilization genes via corepressor function of a compound that attaches to the very same receptors.
Lucky for you, Spironolactone is neither a dioxin nor possesses corepressor function. On contraire, Bicalutamide has corepressor function, so the probability of having those permanent effects reversed is slightly increased, though not well established, because it's dealing with gene expression only via partial hindrance to transcription.

Does this mean that Spironolactone will not cause fat redistribution either?

 

[Ein]

Does this mean that Spironolactone will not cause fat redistribution either?

Fat distribution is not a permanent effect of androgens.
Permanent effects include bone development including facial bones like brow ridge, facial and body hair distribution and growth, face shape and features like nose and eyebrows, elongation and development of phallus, pubic hair, VOICE, etc.
Non permanent effects include fat distribution, libido, mood and aggression, sebum production, texture of stratum corneum, rate of melanogenesis, etc.

 

[Ein]

Ein just remember that I was so afraid of science that I chose Business/commerce the very first time I got chance ie, in +1.
I will take 10+ minutes to understand this whole reply haha

Lol. Dude, I'm a computer science engineering student in an IIT. I have nothing to do with science of genetics and endocrinology. But after studying about all of this, I've realized that this is not a science which is very difficult to comprehend and understand tu its fullest. These are just some basic facts that have been extensively researched upon and all the citations are available. I just accept it and link it with each other and it all makes sense. That's why my father takes Bicalutamide on my word, despite so many warning from his dermatologist about it that it's a prostate cancer drug and all the bs.

 

[I'mme]

Fat distribution is not a permanent effect of androgens.
Permanent effects include bone development including facial bones like brow ridge, facial and body hair distribution and growth, face shape and features like nose and eyebrows, elongation and development of phallus, pubic hair, VOICE, etc.
Non permanent effects include fat distribution, libido, mood and aggression, sebum production, texture of stratum corneum, rate of melanogenesis, etc.

What you're saying is permanent effects cannot be overturned/changed just with AA (and/or with estrogen). They would require surgery. But since libido, fab redistribution are non-performance effects they will get effected, right???

Which means me taking spironolactone is largely safe and is highly unlikely to cause noticeabe feminization?

Edit - cannot instead of can

 

[Ikarus]

You realise two type of men are most sought after - the ones who are tall, handsome, smecks of high T; and the ones who are pretty - espouse both masculine and feminine traits, look cute and sweet. Take Shawn Mendes of about 3-5 years ago.

Spironolactone can cause permanent Infertility? Gyno surgery is cheap and one of the least risky. (I plan to opt for Rhino some 6 months down the line, but may instead have to opt for gyno if I get it.)

I am more in the realm of those who have both masculine and feminine traits. I doubt spironolactone would cause permanent infertility, especially since it’s such a weak anti-androgen.

 

[I'mme]

Lol. Dude, I'm a computer science engineering student in an IIT. I have nothing to do with science of genetics and endocrinology. But after studying about all of this, I've realized that this is not a science which is very difficult to comprehend and understand tu its fullest. These are just some basic facts that have been extensively researched upon and all the citations are available. I just accept it and link it with each other and it all makes sense. That's why my father takes Bicalutamide on my word, despite so many warning from his dermatologist about it that it's a prostate cancer drug and all the bs.

I was just about to ask you whether you're from IIT or not.. Lol. CSE man, you're going to have a great career. Best of luck!

 

[Ikarus]

Does this mean that Spironolactone will not cause fat redistribution either?

Spironolactone doesn’t increase E enough for fat redistribution to occur. If you are young enough, it’s used as a puberty blocker, which prevents the significant effects of T such as voice deepening, facial hair, androgenic development..

 

[Ikarus]

That's why my father takes Bicalutamide on my word, despite so many warning from his dermatologist about it that it's a prostate cancer drug and all the bs.

Taking advice from a dermatologist is the greatest mistake anyone could make. They just promote finasteride, and act as if it’s a medication sent from heaven. I never took advice from my dermatologist, and instead educated my dermatologist on why 5AR inhibitors aren’t as great as they say.

 

[Ein]

What you're saying is permanent effects can be overturned/changed just with AA (and/or with estrogen). They would require surgery. But since libido, fab redistribution are non-performance effects they will get effected, right???

Masculine traits are a result of two types of receptor binding to androgen molecules.

1. In the first type, the receptors don't have any effect on the gene expression via any method and has more of a temporary androgen dependent effect, like
   • Muscle Development, because it's easier to store androgens which bind to proteins in muscles which just so happens to be a storage house of proteins like creatinine. (Estrogens are easily stored in fat cells, because why not. Their structure closely resemble lipids like their precursor cholesterol and can dissolve in lipid storing cells. And then there's aromatase storing too there).
   • Libido and male aggression, where androgens kind of have an effect that can trigger required neurotransmitters for this kind of effects. (Androgens aren't the only hormones that affect neurotransmitters to make people aggressive. We have things like cortisol, and adrenaline. An opposite effect is observed due to estrogens which bind to same receptors as androgens, progestogens which compete with cortisols for receptor binding sites, and norepinephrine that competes with adrenaline. Other hormones that affect neurotransmitters are melatonin, insulin, etc.)
   • Sebum and texture of stratum coreneum, which is temporarily affected by the messed up lipid barrier of the skin, because androgens don't like lipids. They like proteins and thus the skin becomes stiff and rough and dry, which the sebaceous glands try to improve by increased sebum production, but fail to do so.
   • Erections
   • Bone density (and not bone shape and size)
2. In the second type, the receptors affect the gene expression inside the cells giving a more permanent and androgen independent effect, like
   • Facial hair and body hair
   • Bone shape and size (estrogens also have permanent effects here)
   • Shape of eyebrows and nose (estrogens also have permanent effects here)
   • Voice deepening
   • Size of penis

Gene expression:
When an individual is born, he/she is programmed with a set of bodily changes that'll be observed at a certain age or on exposure to certain substances. The information of these changes is stored in the genes. Now, these genes can only be expressed when they are first transcribed and then translated.
The above changes mentioned under gene expression happen after male puberty when respective receptors are exposed to androgen molecules.
Now, in order to stop the gene expression until puberty, the DNA molecule is folded in such a way that the transcription enzymes can't bind to the gene and form its respective RNA molecule. Exposure to androgen molecules makes the DNA unfold permanently in such a way that the gene is exposed to the transcription enzymes. These enzymes bind to the gene, transcribe it, form RNA, RNA translates in ribosome, proteins are formed and gene is expressed.
Since the unfolding is permanent, the masculinization is permanent.

That means Spironolactone or any anti-androgen can't change anything and surgery is necessary for a change, unless you can affect gene expression. Bicalutamide has corepressor function, and it prevents the transcription enzymes from binding to the DNA temporarily. Thus, RNA is not formed and gene expression is halted. Dioxin reverses the unfolding of DNA and folds it again permanently.

So, there is no way you're gonna see reversal of any of the masculine traits mentioned under the gene expression category.
As for the first category, it's not considered as feminizatiom at all. And particularly, Spironolactone is a very weak anti-androgen, so you'll see no change except sebum production, but that's not because of its anti-androgenic effects, I presume, because you'll still have rough and dry skin.