Dr. Tsuji Kyocera, Riken Research, Organ Technologies Form Regenerative Hair Research Team

[Billy-D2016]

Hello,

You seem to know about iPS cells. In that case, could you tell us if the cloned follicles would inherit ageing characteristics from the donor follicle, or does iPS reset them to act as new (young) follicles?

I keep thinking this whenever I see old guys with senile alopecia and miniaturized donor area.

Ips are not being used by Dr Tsuji so no point really discussing them. In theory however iPS would reset everything to day 1 since they behave like cells would in an embryo

 

[Swoop]

Look taken from Dr. Tsuji his study in 2012;

After morphogenesis, various stem cell types are maintained in certain regions of the follicle. For instance, follicle epithelial cells are found in the follicle stem cell niche of the bulge region21, 22; multipotent mesenchymal precursors are found in DP cells18, 19; neural crest-derived melanocyte progenitors are located in the sub-bulge region23, 24, 25, and follicle epithelial stem cells in the bulge region that is connected to the arrector pili muscle15, 26.

So if you can extract those and multiple then why would you need iPS cells anyway? The HUGE problem always was to culture cells while retaining their properties. Dr. Tsuji even mentioned that a few months ago. The major challenge was expanding the epithelial stem cells. No use in culturing cells when they lose their intrinsic properties.

Dr. Ohyama actually did a talk about this 2 years ago on the hair congress about iPS cells

But are these hurdles a problem now with Dr. Tsuji his method? Well as he is moving forward probably not. The limitations in starting material wouldn't be a problem (small sample back of the head) and loss of intrinsic properties in vitro (apparently Dr. Tsuji has got the culturing problem fixed, thus they probably don't lose their properties).

 

[mitch1211]

What are the chances of this actually becoming a legit working procedure? Serious question.

Also by the time this rolls around I will be 28 and hopefully making good money by then.

BRB get 25,000 cloned grafts of hair for a thick luxurious NW0 mane.

 

[Swoop]

What are the chances of this actually becoming a legit working procedure? Serious question.

Also by the time this rolls around I will be 28 and hopefully making good money by then.

BRB get 25,000 cloned grafts of hair for a thick luxurious NW0 mane.

My opinion is the following. In terms of potential this is a lone wolf at the top. No contest. Assuming they can culture these stem cells properly I believe they will be able to induce new hair follicles. How they are going to automate this process full scale etc, no idea. Will probably require some advanced high tech stuff. But it's extremely promising. Only time will tell.

 

[Ken1983]

But are these hurdles a problem now with Dr. Tsuji his method? Well as he is moving forward probably not. The limitations in starting material wouldn't be a problem (small sample back of the head) and loss of intrinsic properties in vitro (apparently Dr. Tsuji has got the culturing problem fixed, thus they probably don't lose their properties).

Right, so where did you find out that theyve figured out how to culture epithelial cells?

 

[Billy-D2016]

My opinion is the following. In terms of potential this is a lone wolf at the top. No contest. Assuming they can culture these stem cells properly I believe they will be able to induce new hair follicles. How they are going to automate this process full scale etc, no idea. Will probably require some advanced high tech stuff. But it's extremely promising. Only time will tell.

Hello Swoop. I just wanted to ask you a few questions since you're one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum.
1) In the past, many researchers managed to maintain the inductive properties of DP cells by culturing them in a 3D environment much like Dr Tsuji has but they had problem that the grown hairs were not pigmented and grew in a haphazard direction. Does Dr Tsujis method deal with these issues?
2) how will Dr Tsuji mass produce these cells on a large scale so that a treatment can be offered to the public?

 

[Billy-D2016]

Right, so where did you find out that theyve figured out how to culture epithelial cells?

3) Do you think this would work in scar tissue ie old strip scar.

Thank you in advance

 

[Swoop]

Hello Swoop. I just wanted to ask you a few questions since you're one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum.
1) In the past, many researchers managed to maintain the inductive properties of DP cells by culturing them in a 3D environment much like Dr Tsuji has but they had problem that the grown hairs were not pigmented and grew in a haphazard direction. Does Dr Tsujis method deal with these issues?
2) how will Dr Tsuji mass produce these cells on a large scale so that a treatment can be offered to the public?

Well Higgins, Jahoda and Christiano tried to retain signature expression while culturing DP cells but failed in doing that; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3856847/.

Even switching from a 2D to 3D environment didn't help in maintaining the expression though.

Here, we performed global gene expression analysis of human dermal papilla cells in culture and discovered very rapid and profound molecular signature changes linking their transition from a 3D to a 2D environment with early loss of their hair-inducing capacity. We demonstrate that the intact dermal papilla transcriptional signature can be partially restored by growth of papilla cells in 3D spheroid cultures. This signature change translates to a partial restoration of inductive capability

In fact it was even pretty low 22% only...

Approximately 22% of transcripts perturbed by 2D culture were restored toward the levels of expression in intact papillae, by growth as spheroids. The observation of hair follicles within grafts, as described above, suggests that the 22% restoration of papilla signature is sufficient for follicle neogenesis. However, as complete hair-follicle morphogenesis involves epithelial:mesenchymal interactions (the thing Dr. Tsuji is trying to do), it is likely that external paracrine signals will be required for full signature restoration and development of external hairs.

I can't answer these specific questions though. I'm not Dr. Tsuji and don't know the details of his work. His study is quite old (from 2012) and like I said he must have surely progressed/innovated in the mean time.

All I'm saying is that imo this has tremendous potential. Honestly if they get it right I can't see how they are not going to be able to induce new hair follicles.

Pretty much having androgen insensitive hair follicles , the dream is alive .

 

[Swoop]

Right, so where did you find out that theyve figured out how to culture epithelial cells?

Apparently* should have been assuming. I don't know indeed. However one thing is for sure it's kinda useless to aim for human clinical trials without getting the culture process right. Seeing how they present them self currently one would think that they have fixed the culturing problem, right?

 

[Ken1983]

2) how will Dr Tsuji mass produce these cells on a large scale so that a treatment can be offered to the public?

They will probably set up small drop in centres where a surgeon would perform a biopsy, then they would sent it off to a lab for processing. Then you would return after a few weeks for a scalp injection.

Lab technicians would do the intricate task of inverting the DP sheath and all the other technical things. In contrast anyone could be trained to take a scalp sample, much like semi skilled people can perform botox injections, there wouldn't be a shortage of this sort of worker.

 

[Ken1983]

Apparently* should have been assuming. I don't know indeed. However one thing is for sure it's kinda useless to aim for human clinical trials without getting the culture process right. Seeing how they present them self currently one would think that they have fixed the culturing problem, right?

Surely if the cultural process was 'right' they wouldn't aim for 2020 to start the trials, why not 2018 if all the science was figured out?All of kyocera's equipment would be ready by then. I think it seems more likely, that they're assuming by 2020 they would have figured out how to complete the few remaining peices of the jig saw puzzle.


I think the 2020 release date is kyocera just beating their chest.

 

[Pray The Bald Away]

Surely if the cultural process was 'right' they wouldn't aim for 2020 to start the trials, why not 2018 if all the science was figured out?All of kyocera's equipment would be ready by then. I think it seems more likely, that they're assuming by 2020 they would have figured out how to complete the few remaining peices of the jig saw puzzle.


I think the 2020 release date is kyocera just beating their chest.

Preclinical trials.

 

[mr_robot]

Surely if the cultural process was 'right' they wouldn't aim for 2020 to start the trials, why not 2018 if all the science was figured out?All of kyocera's equipment would be ready by then. I think it seems more likely, that they're assuming by 2020 they would have figured out how to complete the few remaining peices of the jig saw puzzle.


I think the 2020 release date is kyocera just beating their chest.

Because developing the machinary to automate the culturing process is n't exactly easy even once you take way the biology. Even if they manage to develop 10,000 doses from a biopsy, how are these going to be delivered to the patient? It's not a matter of sticking them into a syringe, each dose has to be injected separately so even this probably to be a custom developed device. The Japanese are good at this kind of stuff but no way could they get something ready in just one and ahalf years.

 

[Torin]

Here's a question or two I'll throw out there.

If Riken (cloning) were successful but Shiseido (immunizing) were not, would a cloning treatment be considered a cure if you still had thinning hair?

I don't see how Shiseido's treatment will work permanently if at all. Why would the cells from the back of the head pass on their characteristics to other hairs when injected in the region? By what mechanism is this meant to be possible?

 

[Jaym]

Well Higgins, Jahoda and Christiano tried to retain signature expression while culturing DP cells but failed in doing that; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3856847/.

Even switching from a 2D to 3D environment didn't help in maintaining the expression though.



In fact it was even pretty low 22% only...



I can't answer these specific questions though. I'm not Dr. Tsuji and don't know the details of his work. His study is quite old (from 2012) and like I said he must have surely progressed/innovated in the mean time.

All I'm saying is that imo this has tremendous potential. Honestly if they get it right I can't see how they are not going to be able to induce new hair follicles.

Pretty much having androgen insensitive hair follicles , the dream is alive .

I'm pretty sure Christiano stated in her latest research regarding Tofa that when she used it on her HF spheroids gene expression was increased to ~50% if I remember correctly.

 

[mr_robot]

Here's a question or two I'll throw out there.

If Riken (cloning) were successful but Shiseido (immunizing) were not, would a cloning treatment be considered a cure if you still had thinning hair?

I don't see how Shiseido's treatment will work permanently if at all. Why would the cells from the back of the head pass on their characteristics to other hairs when injected in the region? By what mechanism is this meant to be possible?

It's not about passing on characteristics, the number of DP cells directly reflects on the diamater and length of hair. The new DP cells injected supposidly find their way to the follicles reinforcing the existing DP cells with ones that are more resistant. The existing DP cells will still eventually die off but I can't see why you would n't be able to get a top up later.

 

[Torin]

It's not about passing on characteristics, the number of DP cells directly reflects on the diamater and length of hair. The new DP cells injected supposidly find their way to the follicles reinforcing the existing DP cells with ones that are more resistant. The existing DP cells will still eventually die off but I can't see why you would n't be able to get a top up later.

Oh right, thanks for the explanation.

Would be great if it worked, but even if it did I can't see it going mainstream unless it is established in clinics worldwide and if only one tissue sample is ever needed (can be stored away).

You can't keep having chunks of scalp removed every couple of years.

Now if only they needed to pluck out follicles it would make for a much more attractive treatment...

 

[Billy-D2016]

Well that really depends on the amount of hairs they can produce from a single hair follice. If it's unlimited then that would be a cure for even those who has the thinnest of donors as you would just need more injections per cm2 to get equal coverage. For example someone with normal caliber hair may require 200hairs per cm2 for normal looking density but someone with extremely thinned out hair may require 400 hairs per cm2 to get the same density

Here's a question or two I'll throw out there.

If Riken (cloning) were successful but Shiseido (immunizing) were not, would a cloning treatment be considered a cure if you still had thinning hair?

I don't see how Shiseido's treatment will work permanently if at all. Why would the cells from the back of the head pass on their characteristics to other hairs when injected in the region? By what mechanism is this meant to be possible?

 

[Ken1983]

Because developing the machinary to automate the culturing process is n't exactly easy even once you take way the biology. Even if they manage to develop 10,000 doses from a biopsy, how are these going to be delivered to the patient? It's not a matter of sticking them into a syringe, each dose has to be injected separately so even this probably to be a custom developed device. The Japanese are good at this kind of stuff but no way could they get something ready in just one and ahalf years.

Kyoceras equipment will be ready by 2018, well the prototypes will be anyway. That wasn't reallly the main point of my original post though.

 

[Torin]

lFor example someone with normal caliber hair may require 200hairs per cm2 for normal looking density but someone with extremely thinned out hair may require 400 hairs per cm2 to get the same density

But the average normal hair density is only approx. 160-250 per cm2. 400 is rare and ultra thick.

I'm saying even if you plonked 200 per cm2 thick cloned hairs on top of a full coverage of very diffused, thinned hair, would the outcome still be aesthetic or weird?

In pictures of hair transplants performed with dense packin onto of a diffuse but intact outlins, the results look good but obviously you can't inspect them up close.

http://www.hairtransplantnetwork.com/Share-info/hair_transplant_patient.asp?PatientID=3284&DrID=376

Edit: It probably would look great.