Dr. Tsuji Kyocera, Riken Research, Organ Technologies Form Regenerative Hair Research Team

[That Guy]

It has been said many times that the reason for using cells taken from the hair at the back of your scalp, aside from the obvious, is because those cells have resilience to DHT. The idea is that primordium derived from this will inherit that resilience.

If this turns out to be true, will that mean I will be able to take hair from my blonde girllfriend and have blonde hair? )))))) I have black curly hair. Wonder if the foreign hair would start getting the attributes of the hosts hair. It was observed that when you transplant a beard hair to the scalp it changes texture and length similar to the scalp hair.

Not necessarily. You couldn't use just anyone's stem cells - the very point of using stem cells is that because they are your own, there is very little, if any, chance of rejection. Allogeneic transplants are possible in other stem cell therapies like bone marrow, but you must use someone with the same bone marrow. This reduces the chance of getting something call "GVHD", "graft versus host disease" caused by a protein mismatch. Hair is a protein.

Logically, for an allo-transplant to work safely with hair, you would need someone with similar proteins to your own hair - a brother or sister, perhaps.

 

[Torin]

What nobody can answer is whether the primordium from back of head will begin their life cycle from day zero, as though forming in the embryo for the first time.

For many Androgenetic Alopecia sufferers the hairs at the back of the head are thin too. So knowing whether the primordium would rebirth in a healthy pre-male pattern baldness state or as thin and tired male pattern baldness prone hairs is a key issue.

 

[That Guy]

What nobody can answer is whether the primordium from back of head will begin their life cycle from day zero, as though forming in the embryo for the first time.

For many Androgenetic Alopecia sufferers the hairs at the back of the head are thin too. So knowing whether the primordium would rebirth in a healthy pre-male pattern baldness state or as thin and tired male pattern baldness prone hairs is a key issue.

The key is in the name "primordium".

 

[Torin]

The key is in the name "primordium".

Yes they call it primordium but in reality what if the new hairs come out look all tired and thin?

Do you think if a dupa sufferer or 80 year old bald man with thin donor area were to have this treatment, the "primordial" hairs would appear like they would before Androgenetic Alopecia? It would be a miracle if they did.

The question is how much better will the new hairs be than the original hair if that hair was damaged (in the case of a dupa sufferer or older patient). Nobody really knows the answer yet.

 

[That Guy]

Before asking questions, people really need to read threads around here as well as the entries published by Tsuji in journals. Most of these questions answers can be found earlier in the thread or are right there in the papers.

Yes they call it primordium but in reality what if the new hairs come out look all tired and thin.

They don't. The hair grew with normal thickness and cycle just as the normal mouse hair. It is call "primordium" because it is the same as it was in the beginning. In biology, "primordial" means "in the earliest stages of development". That is exactly what Tsuji is doing - they take stem cells from the hair, put them together and culture them in a way that replicates the conditions of the human scalp when you're just a foetus. The result is brand new hair.

Do you think if a dupa sufferer or 80 year old bald man with thin donor area were to have this treatment, the "primordial" hairs would appear like they would before Androgenetic Alopecia? It would be a miracle if they did.

Yes. As also said by someone else in the Shiseido thread, the donor hair at the back thins due to senescence. We physically age because cells have less ability to multiply and repair themselves over time and exposure to the environment. You will still have the stem cells required to make primordial follicles.

In the case of DUPA, this is my hypothesis:

Tsuji's method involves Epithelial and Mesenchymal stem cells. That's the only two kind of cells required, but it is known that these cells are not the same all over the body. So, my first thought would've been that they could take these cells from somewhere else in you and grow new hair, but that may not work. An epithelial stem cell taken from the bulge of the hair follicle, is probably not the same as one take from elsewhere in the skin, for example.

However, iPS cells are stem cells that are engineered by a lab to behave like embryonic stem cells - which can change into tissue-specific cells. As I recall, this is what Sanford-Burnham's research regarding hair loss did. My guess is that if you can't get the epithelial and mesenchymal cells from somewhere else in the patient, iPS cells or an allo transplant would be the only options.

 

[Torin]

They don't. The hair grew with normal thickness and cycle just as the normal mouse hair. It is call "primordium" because it is the same as it was in the beginning. In biology, "primordial" means "in the earliest stages of development". That is exactly what Tsuji is doing - they take stem cells from the hair, put them together and culture them in a way that replicates the conditions of the human scalp when you're just a foetus. The result is brand new hair.



Yes. As also said by someone else in the Shiseido thread, the donor hair at the back thins due to senescence. We physically age because cells have less ability to multiply and repair themselves over time and exposure to the environment. You will still have the stem cells required to make primordial follicles.

So on the one hand you are saying they will go back to conditions like in the foetus, but you also accept that hairs from the donor area get affected by the environment (including dht). And this happens to most balding men not just dupa.

So will these brand new hairs carry the dht damage from their forebears? I think it's highly possible that they will.

On a different note, do you think the aim of primordium method of hair regeneration will be to match and maybe slightly better the current hair transplant techniques, with the selling point being minimal scarring. The average hair transplant does something like 4-7 thousand hairs which is a far cry from original density.

Or rather will its aim be a total and complete regeneration of 60+ thousand hairs?

I hope these guys will not say the limited of primordiums would be 15 or 20k new hairs, but truely unlimited supply from one session to match or even better original density.

 

[jc3303]

So on the one hand you are saying they will go back to conditions like in the foetus, but you also accept that hairs from the donor area get affected by the environment (including dht). And this happens to most balding men not just dupa.

So will these brand new hairs carry the dht damage from their forebears? I think it's highly possible that they will.

On a different note, do you think the aim of primordium method of hair regeneration will be to match and maybe slightly better the current hair transplant techniques, with the selling point being minimal scarring. The average hair transplant does something like 4-7 thousand hairs which is a far cry from original density.

Or rather will its aim be a total and complete regeneration of 60+ thousand hairs?

I hope these guys will not say the limited of primordiums would be 15 or 20k new hairs, but truely unlimited supply from one session to match or even better original density.

this will be far superior to current hair transplant, in mice they injected 28 germs in 1cm^2 and achieved an average density of 120. So with precision equipment made by kyocera they could even improve upon that.

 

[Torin]

this will be far superior to current hair transplant, in mice they injected 28 germs in 1cm^2 and achieved an average density of 120. So with precision equipment made by kyocera they could even improve upon that.

Yes, this aspect of what Dr. Tsuji published and spoke about at the 2015 Congress in Miami is encouraging.

But there are a few things about that. The technique they used to grow hairs on the mice is not the same they will use on humans in a future treatment. There won't be a nylon guide thread placement for example.

Also there is the major challenge of multiplying the cells in sufficient number from a single biopsy. We don't yet know what the limit of this could be.

It might be that the biopsy can only create enough germs to cover 100 or 200cm2 of scalp with something like 120 hairs per each cm2.

But what if you want all your head covered with new hair, both balding areas as well as the "horseshoe"?

OK you could get multiple procedures perhaps, but that would be added cost and more biopsies (how much more $ and how many more biopsies would be important).

Many peoples horseshoe get crap density even if they remain intact.

Look at the horseshoe on hair transplant patients. In most cases even this area is not full.

See how even this area looks wispy especially close to the ear and sideburns.

 

[jc3303]

Yes, this aspect of what Dr. Tsuji published and spoke about at the 2015 Congress in Miami is encouraging.

But there are a few things about that. The technique they used to grow hairs on the mice is not the same they will use on humans in a future treatment. There won't be a nylon guide thread placement for example.

Also there is the major challenge of multiplying the cells in sufficient number from a single biopsy. We don't yet know what the limit of this could be.

It might be that the biopsy can only create enough germs to cover 100 or 200cm2 of scalp with something like 120 hairs per each cm2.

But what if you want all your head covered with new hair, both balding areas as well as the "horseshoe"?

OK you could get multiple procedures perhaps, but that would be added cost and more biopsies (how much more $ and how many more biopsies would be important).

Many peoples horseshoe get crap density even if they remain intact.

Look at the horseshoe on hair transplant patients. In most cases even this area is not full.

See how even this area looks wispy especially close to the ear and sideburns.

It's too early to speculate on most of that, with kyocera's new technology they're developing who knows how many cells can be cultivated from one biopsy. I imagine it will improve from what they can do presently.

I don't think they would call this a cure if they couldn't bring a high norwood to normal hair density.

 

[constrictedvoid]

Maybe a silly question, but does anyone have any ideas if this could work on eyebrows?

 

[Torin]

I don't think they would call this a cure if they couldn't bring a high norwood to normal hair density.

I don't think Tsuji has ever used the word "cure", though perhaps more for professional reasons than anything.

 

[hellouser]

I don't think Tsuji has ever used the word "cure", though perhaps more for professional reasons than anything.

Replicel doesnt use the word 'cure' either. They've always referred to it as a 'functional cure'. Consider this; you make new follicles and cover your bald scalp with newly grown follicles and hair. You STILL actually have alopecia.

 

[That Guy]

So on the one hand you are saying they will go back to conditions like in the foetus, but you also accept that hairs from the donor area get affected by the environment (including dht). And this happens to most balding men not just dupa.

So will these brand new hairs carry the dht damage from their forebears? I think it's highly possible that they will.

Why is everyone so hung up on this? Again, I see very few men with Androgenetic Alopecia where the hair at the back wouldn't be usable and the argument half the time here is "In like, 80 year old men..." do you think most 80 year old men are even going to care about this treatment? They're lucky to just wake up.

This question is best asked as, "If the hair at the back of my scalp is old, will the new hair derived from it get old too?" Yes, it will, but based on everything we currently know about this method as well as other stem cell therapies, it won't begin that way.

The worst case scenario is that some people will have to get multiple treatments over the course of your life or undergo some other procedure/product to maintain the new follicles.

Also there is the major challenge of multiplying the cells in sufficient number from a single biopsy. We don't yet know what the limit of this could be.

It might be that the biopsy can only create enough germs to cover 100 or 200cm2 of scalp with something like 120 hairs per each cm2.

It was said in the original press release, as I recall, that the hair can be multiplied 100 - 1000 fold. That's a lot. Tsuji keeps writing new papers about this - their tech is getting better all the time. I definitely think that the method is more advanced than what we've actually seen.

As for the word "cure", a cure is literally defined as a treatment that relieves the symptoms of a disease. Tsuji's method looks like it will be able to do just that. It's important for everyone to remember that no matter what treatment comes along and how well it works, it will always be the second best scenario. The best scenario is that you were lucky and never lost your hair to begin with. So second best is never perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than nothing.

 

[Solomon]

I don't get why new hairs from DUPA biopsy will be "old and thin?"

Hair is getting thinned from DHT and other factors but when they will extract that 2 cells (epithelial and mesenchymal) from the biopsy I think that cells won't keep damage from DHT and new promoted hair will be healthy.

After some time they will thinned as well but you can always do the procedure again.

 

[papa pinrel]

I don't get why new hairs from DUPA biopsy will be "old and thin?"

Hair is getting thinned from DHT and other factors but when they will extract that 2 cells (epithelial and mesenchymal) from the biopsy I think that cells won't keep damage from DHT and new promoted hair will be healthy.

After some time they will thinned as well but you can always do the procedure again.

I hope, DUPA is a f**** hell, i think that this must be help

 

[Billy-D2016]

I hope, DUPA is a f**** hell, i think that this must be help

Even people with DUPA never lose all the hair around the horseshoe area. No matter how bad the Dupa , it should still be possible to extract 100 healthy hair follices which is what they would need. If the hairs were thin then the primordiums would also produce thin hair but I believe it would just be a matter of implanting more primordiums to achieve the sane density as a person with normal caliber hair follicles. The golden question is how many hairs can be created from a single follice

 

[Torin]

If someone is maintaining with propecia when Tsuji becomes available, should they be advised to stop taking propecia before the Tsuji procedure and lose their propecia dependent hairs to make room for the cloned hairs to fill?

Or should they get the Tsuji treatment while on propecia and only afterwards quit propecia?

Of course you could stay on propecia forever, but I think the main hope for many people is that one day they will be able to stop their medication. This is why you will often read guys saying, "I'm taking propecia until something better comes along."

If quitting propecia 6-24 months before having the cloning treatment would be the best course of action to maximise results, then sadly it would mean your hair getting worse before getting better.

 

[thomps1523]

If someone is maintaining with propecia when Tsuji becomes available, should they be advised to stop taking propecia before the Tsuji procedure and lose their propecia dependent hairs to make room for the cloned hairs to fill?

Or should they get the Tsuji treatment while on propecia and only afterwards quit propecia?

Of course you could stay on propecia forever, but I think the main hope for many people is that one day they will be able to stop their medication. This is why you will often read guys saying, "I'm taking propecia until something better comes along."

If quitting propecia 6-24 months before having the cloning treatment would be the best course of action to maximise results, then sadly it would mean your hair getting worse before getting better.

My guess is you get tsuji done then after swing over to get Replicell done, and get off everything

 

[Torin]

My guess is you get tsuji done then after swing over to get Replicell done, and get off everything

I don't think Replicel will work so well bud.

 

[Pray The Bald Away]

Dude, most of your posts are you talking to yourself...start a blog or something. You answered your own question - if you're okay losing hair leading up to the treatment, then stop taking propecia. Otheriwise, don't.

He's a compulsive worrier.