Discussion in 'Dealing with Side Effects' started by barcafan, Jun 28, 2009.
I hope he helps you guys
Here are a few questions to ask yourself, to rule out AF:
Extreme difficulty arising in the morning, irrespective of time in bed - Check
Surprisingly good energy levels at night - Check
Afternoon "crash" - Check
Any idea WHY we have good energy levels at night?
Barcafan - check out Dr Crisler on Super Human Radio
http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/sho ... uman-Radio
He speaks about AF on 2 of those broadcasts. Very informative.
Enden, i suggest you check this link too. There is broadcasts on TRT, Thyroid etc
you probably missed my other post in the myraid of other things
Could you qualify your comment RE- people with high testosterone yet exhibiting hypgonal symptons?
Are you talking about people with in range T/E etc or, broadly?
For people with high T but higher E2 for instance, people having ED issues etc can be attributable to high estrogen levels. Estrogen is an erection killer and T/E imbalances (doesn't matter if T is high) can compromise sexual performance and also serve to distort other balances. Right?
Simple example - if someone has developed high E2 levels and say high SHBG (as a byproduct) and low DHT levels, surely its not that complicated? High estrogen - lower androgen levels = these famous symptoms. Low DHT and or low free testosterone levels (eg- due to high SHBG levels), can cause penile shinkage. Most of these things are clear.
Is there a distinction between this and more "complicated" cases? You say these guys are "screwed up" but i reckon many just need the right hormonal assistance to rebalance things. Even people with skewed DHT metabolism- we never ( i bet?) have baseline ratios. Considering these guys all have hairloss already perhaps their ratios were always less than normal.
Many thousands of men suffer from ED and other similar symtons due to hormonal imbalances not induced by finasteride (including more complex side effects that people wrongly associate just with finasteride - e.g. atrophy, depression etc etc). In many cases, i believe, these guys are no different than guys who have high e2 etc as a result from finasteride. In both cases, trying to rebalance is the obvious answer or at very least - first base.
I agree that in the more extreme of cases (Several on propeciahelp) it gets more complicated than that. That;s not to say the initial imbalance didn't cause it, but the effects of this may be more complex for some. I also agree there may be some "residual" damage. For someone with messed up ratios for a prolonged period of time, may impact their entire body, at least semi-permanently.
What im saying is. If every PFS sufferer had unlimited resources to work on tailored HPA resets with very frequent bloods and tweaking, to normalise their levels (where clear imbalances exist, that is), i reckon the success rate would significantly higher.
The reality is most PFS victims are banding about from one half assed regimen to the next - some using arimidex and lowering their E2 way too low before concluding (wrongly) that it wasn't the answer for example. Usless.
I'm sure even you find it difficult to give any one patient the level of intricate consideration that they probably need.
Obviously there is "no set ratio" that we all share but that means little. When myself and Enden speak of "T/E ratios" we speak of each person's unique optimum levels.
Just like we know a young man in his 20's should have T in the upper quartile or atleast third, we know that mid-range E2 appears to be closer to optimum for most males, than high out of range E2.
It's not an exact science and that's why, as i mentioned in my last post, most people are screwed because they dont have the resources to get expert consideration that applies to them.
I accept this, of course.
But surely if someone has high E2 levels, they need to atleast try surpress them. Even if high E2 is caused by something else, the fact that one has high E2 is damaging in itself and needs redressed.
Yes, good T levels and E in place.
Obviously we have to get to that stage first. For most PFS sufferers they aren't even in that realm. The ones that are. Well first i reckon they need to ensure, via trial and error i guess, that their T/E levels are as optimum as possible.
Obviously if they have decent T/E levels and still exhbit these problems, something else is at play. You of all people will appreciate how sensitive some people will be to hormonal imbalance., though. Swiftly concluding androgen resistance is potentially a dangerous leap of faith IMHO.
If you do reach the point with a patient whereby their ranges all appear fine, including DHT, SHBG, T, E, Prolactin, Cortisol etc, then perhaps it does get messy. But i reckon 99% of PFS sufferers just arent there..
And even when you do get this circumstance, i reckon its more to do with DHT metobolism. If someone is pissing out too much DHT metabolites then doesn't that alone speak volumes? This is different to androgen resistance, right?
And just out of interest, Dr, in respect to androgen resistance of some sort
do you reckon the people that recover or atleast partially recover, someone lose resistance over time. Or that their body somehow adapts?
Because i think we can both agree that the most common element of "recovery stories" appears to be time.
Perhaps. Ultimately hormonal inbalances are almost the norm for PFS sufferers.
I reckon, atleast a good degree of reprieve will be enjoyed if you can normalise these. Any further recovery may be necessitated by time and good living (exercise etc). 100% recovery seems difficult. I would be happy with 85-90%.
The caveat is there there is always a few more sinister cases that dont seem to respond to anything. I'm not oblivious to this.
DR. First I'd like to thank you for taking the time and inform us about the dangers of finasteride. I was wondering if you could help me, is it true that Zinc can be used as an aromatize inhabitor, I have heard many body builders talk about that. Also, is it true that Zinc can limmit 5-alpha reductase and therefore lowering your DHT? I used to be Zinc deficient, I wonder if that increased my DHT and resulted in early male pattern baldness. I hope you can hep me. Thanks so much for your time Dr.
My pal Dr. Mark Gordon uses 160mg zinc citrate, in divided doses, to control estrogen in his TRT patients.
Zinc canot, however, lower E sufficiently for those on steroid doses.
No, you did not make yourself sick by treating zinc deficiency.[/quote:1658trbo]
I, what about Zinc and DHT, does Zinc limmit DHT? Is it true that low Zinc causes high DHT?
This is an attitude which I like! There are too many know-all, arrogant pricks who doesn't listen to anything you say, and don't care whether you live or die, as long as they manage to save their pride when they feel threatened by questions which reveals their incompetence. Respect.
When you get side effects from finasteride, symptoms of DHT deficiency and excessive estradiol reveal themselves. This is how it all begins. I've been experimenting with AI's and steroids (I'm on TRT, btw), and I've been able to manage all side effects but the sexual function properly. Your libido and erections are so damn sensitive to the testosterone/estradiol ratio, that it's very difficult to maintain without sufficient amounts of DHT, because it's the body's estradiol antagonist. Most doctors won't acknowledge the importance of the T/E ratio. The only one I've seen do so, is Dr. Shippen.
Have you seen any results from bloodwork done when patients quit Propecia? Take a look at Shma's example, and see how it evolves.
Regarding the Proviron experience;
This isn't the way I see it. If you're DHT deficient and excessive estradiol is suppressing your testosterone production, Proviron should increase your testosterone production by suppressing estradiol. We're talking about enough mesterolone to replace the natural amount of DHT. Maybe your HPTA will respond by initially reducing secretion of GnRH, but eventually it should normalize if you don't overdose. The amount of mesterolone would have to be reduced according to the raising endogenous DHT level to avoid suppression.
This is my hypothesis. Revealed publicly for the first time.
What you're saying is that DHT isn't the estradiol antagonist, and excessive estradiol isn't suppressive to your testosterone production?
Dr. Crisler, what about Zinc and DHT, does Zinc limmit DHT? Is it true that low Zinc causes high DHT?
If a patients sexual function improves when he misses a dose of TD, I would say that estrogen was too low in relation to the androgen levels. TD's are known to increase the DHT level more than shots, which brings me back on the antagonist track. A lot of people in the BB community has experience with this. When overdosing AI's, libido diminishes, and they get erectile dysfunction. Morning erections, which is the main indicator of a healthy T/E ratio, disappear. The same thing happens when they're using large amounts of testosterone which increases the aromatase activity too much. In other words, too much estrogen in relation to androgens.
I've felt the changes on my own body, and I've been monitoring them closely. I've reversed and managed a lot of symptoms successfully. For me, it's a matter of life or death. Have you ever stopped to think that something essential is missing in relation to what doctors are learning about andrology at medical schools? I appreciate your support in our case, and I mean no disrespect. In Europe, they're so incompetent that they treat hypogonadism by giving you a testosterone shot if it's below what they define as normal range, and they don't give you another shot before your testosterone level drops below that threshold again. It's like getting hypogonadism over and over again.
I've read parts of his book, "The Testosterone Syndrome".
I had to open it again.
Now, it seems to me, that he's well aware of the significance of the T/E ratio. He doesn't seem to be aware of DHT as the estrogen antagonist, but he does mention that your penis needs DHT. Bodybuilder's use AI's or DHT derivatives to manage estrogen on heavy testosterone cycles, and I've experience with both Proviron and Andractim myself, so the significance of DHT in relation to estrogen is very clear to me. I believe that DHT is what maintaines the T/E ratio. According to Dr. Shippen, it seems like too low estrogen level, after using AI's, impaires your sexual function via brain chemistry. I don't know about DHT, but I get more aggressive and have voilent and sexual dreams regularly when it raises.
One more thing; you're studying wrecked endocrine systems. I've observed the process, and I'm telling you that it begins with DHT deficiency and excessive estrogen.
Btw, which other hormones does finasteride affect directly by binding to 5AR Type 2? Mew has been talking about a couple of neurohormones, but from what I've read, they're made by 5AR Type 1. I've asked Mew about this a couple of times, but he doesn't answer.