Darolutamide (odm-201), A Better Topical Than Enzalutamide?

[furrydome]

My only problem is my f*****g dry eyes!

This past week my lips have been dry and cracking for no freaking reason, worst in years. Then I remembered a possible reason - changed RU from 1x/day to 2x/day (7.5%) a few weeks ago. Eyes have been slightly dryer than usual, but not enough to really notice.

Let's see how daro goes. Just applied about 1.5ml of my current daro solution:
10mg daro in 10ml generic Equate brand minoxidil (0.1% daro)

Plan is to do this every night, and for now continue the existing morning regimen of minoxidil foam and 7.5% RU in K&B. If I see gains in a few weeks, drop the RU. Will continue minoxidil 2x/day and microneedling every week or two.

Side note, this vehicle sucks. Hard to dissolve the daro. Much more runny than K&B. Made a mess and wasted a little bit of material.

 

[countjulian]

This past week my lips have been dry and cracking for no freaking reason, worst in years. Then I remembered a possible reason - changed RU from 1x/day to 2x/day (7.5%) a few weeks ago. Eyes have been slightly dryer than usual, but not enough to really notice.

Let's see how daro goes. Just applied about 1.5ml of my current daro solution:
10mg daro in 10ml generic Equate brand minoxidil (0.1% daro)

Plan is to do this every night, and for now continue the existing morning regimen of minoxidil foam and 7.5% RU in K&B. If I see gains in a few weeks, drop the RU. Will continue minoxidil 2x/day and microneedling every week or two.

Side note, this vehicle sucks. Hard to dissolve the daro. Much more runny than K&B. Made a mess and wasted a little bit of material.

What is K&B?

 

[IdealForehead]

This past week my lips have been dry and cracking for no freaking reason, worst in years. Then I remembered a possible reason - changed RU from 1x/day to 2x/day (7.5%) a few weeks ago. Eyes have been slightly dryer than usual, but not enough to really notice.

Let's see how daro goes. Just applied about 1.5ml of my current daro solution:
10mg daro in 10ml generic Equate brand minoxidil (0.1% daro)

Plan is to do this every night, and for now continue the existing morning regimen of minoxidil foam and 7.5% RU in K&B. If I see gains in a few weeks, drop the RU. Will continue minoxidil 2x/day and microneedling every week or two.

Side note, this vehicle sucks. Hard to dissolve the daro. Much more runny than K&B. Made a mess and wasted a little bit of material.

Yeah. It's funny how we think RU is so side effect free. You know for the last two years my eyes have been drying out and I couldn't figure out why until I got on the daro. Then I realized since the daro accentuated it must have been the past two years of RU usage.

I've googled it and searched pubmed and dry eyes/skin are common side effects of any antiandrogenic regimen. People get it plenty on finasteride once you go up to 5 mg a day. It's common enough on dutasteride too. It's very common on the heavy oral antiandrogens (flutamide, etc.). And I think the RU was definitely my culprit for the past two years, despite not being strong enough to block or reverse my hair loss completely.

Tough to get sufficient androgenic blockade at the scalp without getting some negative systemic effect if you are susceptible to these sides ... Not easy business.

 

[furrydome]

What is K&B?

Supposedly the originally intended vehicle for RU58841. Bunch of info from SAGA:

Kraemer & Bohn's 5% RU58841 solution (KB5)
- 27% Demineralized water
- 63% Ethanol (96%)
- 2.5% BASF Cremophor RH 410
- 2.5% BASF Luviquat FC 550
- 5% RU58841

Kraemer & Bohn's 2% RU58841 solution (KB2)
- 54% Demineralized water
- 40% Ethanol (96%)
- 2% BASF Cremophor RH 410
- 2% BASF Luviquat FC 550
- 2% RU58841

You may use BASF Cremophor RH 40 instead of RH 410. The latter may be hard to get hold of, and the only difference is that it contains 10% water. If you're using BASF Cremophor RH 40 and want to make the KB5 solution, add 0.25% more demineralized water, and 2.25% BASF Cremophor RH 40 instead of 2.5%.

Update: BASF Cremophor RH 40 is now named BASF Kolliphor RH 40.

It's been the nicest vehicle I've used so far - pretty thick, doesn't run much, dries to a hard-ish goo quickly, less irritating than PG or PEG. RU dissolves in it easily, even at 7.5%.

Maybe I'll have the guts to try dissolving Daro in it. sh*t's so expensive.

 

[countjulian]

Supposedly the originally intended vehicle for RU58841. Bunch of info from SAGA:


It's been the nicest vehicle I've used so far - pretty thick, doesn't run much, dries to a hard-ish goo quickly, less irritating than PG or PEG. RU dissolves in it easily, even at 7.5%.

Maybe I'll have the guts to try dissolving Daro in it. sh*t's so expensive.

It comes pre- mixed? How much $$?

 

[furrydome]

It comes pre- mixed? How much $$?

These guys do a 20% off sale every month or two (currently coupon CHEMYO20 is valid until Dec 19): https://www.chemyo.com/kb-solution.html
Most people order from here though: https://anageninc.com/k-b-solution-50ml-designed-for-ru58841.html

I have good things to say about Chemyo but don't want to sound like a shill. If Daro works out they might not be needed anyway.

 

[Nadia1972]

Topicals do not work.Why do u not try to space out the oral catch, rather.
In principle, if daro is an anti androgen,you must feel tired and the collagen reduce.You can see nearly immediately in your face.If you don't have these side effects ,daro isn't an anti androgen or anti dht
i reduce my catch of CPA.I take it only every 3 days and i don't have any side effects and my hair don't fall.Every 2 days,i have sides effects like dizzy turns
But I advise you to stop all these craps and shave your head.You 're men .Hair are less important for you.Your health is more important than your hair

 

[SpaceInvader]

Maybe I'll have the guts to try dissolving Daro in it. sh*t's so expensive.

You can dissolve it in warm Ethanol. You can slowly bring up the temperature by placing a glass container of Ethanol in a pan of boiling water, or try microwaving it in bursts of a few seconds like Ideal does, however I think it would be safer to slowly warm it up in the pan. I have tried the microwave method though.

 

[SpaceInvader]

I dissolved 24 mg in 2.4 mL Ethanol (75.5%) then added 4 mL PG and 1.6 mL Water as I do now. I'm making my average dose 12 mg from now since I'm not sure if that actually reduced the itch last time I did it.

Can't say whether this has reduced my itch. I still get an itch. That's why I'm gonna do 12 mg per application to see if the itch is really gone whenever I increase the dose. I'm also applying Estrogel everyday and using 30 mg Enza every three days. I'm gonna start Derminating as well.

I think it would be better to get on the most aggressive regimen in the beginning by using everything you can. Like taking off flight, first you need full throttle, then when you're at cruise altitude you can set it slightly above idle. If Ideal's current regrowth is due to Daro, then he probably got a boost from his previous regimen.

By the way, I'm not on minoxidil at all. Thought I should probably do it in order to "shock" the follicles, since I don't know if using Estrogel and blocking androgens (If Daro is even truly working) is enough to initiate regrowth. I've been avoiding having to use minoxidil and see if this alone can do it. Seems like it will be necessary in order to start regrowth. Either way, I do have Polaris NR-10 16% that hasn't been used. Although it comes with 0.1% Finasteride if that's something you'd wanna avoid. I can get 10% or 12% without Finasteride. It comes with Collagen though, not sure if that helps with the minoxidil side effects on skin.

@IdealForehead: You think you can still get regrowth by dropping minoxidil or you think it would be necessary to continue to use it along with Daro all the time?

 

[Jonnyyy]

Supposedly the originally intended vehicle for RU58841. Bunch of info from SAGA:


It's been the nicest vehicle I've used so far - pretty thick, doesn't run much, dries to a hard-ish goo quickly, less irritating than PG or PEG. RU dissolves in it easily, even at 7.5%.

Maybe I'll have the guts to try dissolving Daro in it. sh*t's so expensive.

Is this a vehichle to just help with dissolving the solution or does it also help whatever you're applying not go systematic?

 

[kawnshawn]

Topicals do not work.Why do u not try to space out the oral catch, rather.
In principle, if daro is an anti androgen,you must feel tired and the collagen reduce.You can see nearly immediately in your face.If you don't have these side effects ,daro isn't an anti androgen or anti dht
i reduce my catch of CPA.I take it only every 3 days and i don't have any side effects and my hair don't fall.Every 2 days,i have sides effects like dizzy turns
But I advise you to stop all these craps and shave your head.You 're men .Hair are less important for you.Your health is more important than your hair

Daro isn't an anti-androgen? What crack are you smoking?

 

[SpaceInvader]

Well, I've been on it for two weeks.

Been taking with Enza and Estrogel now. The itch has not been reduced or anything. In fact, I'm getting an itch right now. You would think if it were working, it would at least reduce the itch, but so far not a damn hint this is doing anything. I did 12 mg in 4 mL each time for this last batch, and using it with Estrogel. I don't feel jack, no sides, nothing. Also not using minoxidil, so would that be a factor? Do you need to shock the follicles into growth before anything? Either way, since these are Antiandrogens, you should expect the indication that it has eliminated your itch given that it's supposed to the strongest sh*t ever. Right now, it just feels as if I haven't used anything.

 

[IdealForehead]

Well, I've been on it for two weeks.

Been taking with Enza and Estrogel now. The itch has not been reduced or anything. In fact, I'm getting an itch right now. You would think if it were working, it would at least reduce the itch, but so far not a damn hint this is doing anything. I did 12 mg in 4 mL each time for this last batch, and using it with Estrogel. I don't feel jack, no sides, nothing. Also not using minoxidil, so would that be a factor? Do you need to shock the follicles into growth before anything? Either way, since these are Antiandrogens, you should expect the indication that it has eliminated your itch given that it's supposed to the strongest sh*t ever. Right now, it just feels as if haven't used anything.

Depends on the nature of your itch. Did you have an itchy scalp before hair loss? Is your itch just on top or on the whole head? Do you have dry skin in general which can cause itching too? Does your vehicle irritate your skin.

Yes you definitely should be using minoxidil as well if you're trying to regrow.

You could get you substance tested by nmr and mass spec if there's any doubt. But I doubt both your enza and daro would both be fake.

If neither enza nor daro reduce your itch and you're using both, these are the two strongest antiandrogens on earth. It would strongly suggest your itch is not an androgenic itch. You might be itching from PG, dry skin, psychological factors, another skin issue, who knows.

If you have male pattern baldness you could give it two months and see if your shedding stops. After my first two months of minoxidil Telogen Effluvium stopped, I have had almost zero shedding. I now lose maybe 10-20 hairs a day at most that I can see (probably more but that's all I can see).

You could also add desloratadine 1% for a more direct anti itch agent.

 

[SpaceInvader]

I'm seriously considering wounding + taking this in DMSO on the same day. I can start minoxidil 16% right now, but if this isn't doing sh*t, it would be like just using minoxidil by itself, if that even works.

 

[HairCook]

I'm seriously considering wounding + taking this in DMSO on the same day. I can start minoxidil 16% right now, but if this isn't doing sh*t, it would be like just using minoxidil by itself, if that even works.

I dont see any point in that. Better get PGE2 if you can afford it. After wounding LiCl - PGE2 and maybe castor, minoxidil or whatever. FGF9 seems to be missing for HF neogenesis in humans, it is build over ep3 of pge2, and considering that pge has more than one benefit for hair it should be the best approach.

You could also test some pgd2 approach additionally, like cetirizin at 1-2% btw. Selenium disulphide might help with ptgds and the itch, too.

 

[SpaceInvader]

Depends on the nature of your itch. Did you have an itchy scalp before hair loss? Is your itch just on top or on the whole head? Do you have dry skin in general which can cause itching too? Does your vehicle irritate your skin.

Yes you definitely should be using minoxidil as well if you're trying to regrow.

You could get you substance tested by nmr and mass spec if there's any doubt. But I doubt both your enza and daro would both be fake.

If neither enza nor daro reduce your itch and you're using both, these are the two strongest antiandrogens on earth. It would strongly suggest your itch is not an androgenic itch. You might be itching from PG, dry skin, psychological factors, another skin issue, who knows.

If you have male pattern baldness you could give it two months and see if your shedding stops. After my first two months of minoxidil Telogen Effluvium stopped, I have had almost zero shedding. I now lose maybe 10-20 hairs a day at most that I can see (probably more but that's all I can see).

You could also add desloratadine 1% for a more direct anti itch agent.

The thing is that it itches exactly on the edge and on the temples. I also get the itch on top as well but the itch is the strongest in the frontal area.

 

[IdealForehead]

The thing is that it itches exactly on the edge and on the temples. I also get the itch on top as well but the itch is the strongest in the frontal area.

Any change in your hair loss on enza? Either way give it 2 months on daro before drawing a conclusion. Minoxidil directly causes itching for me which is normal based on mechanism of action but that does not mean it is hurting my hair.

Ie. Itching is not always representative of effect.

When I was on high dose daro of 10 mg twice a day my itch went up too because it dried out my skin like crazy.

Watch your shedding and for results in a few months. That's what actually matters.

 

[whatevr]

Topicals do not work.Why do u not try to space out the oral catch, rather.
In principle, if daro is an anti androgen,you must feel tired and the collagen reduce.You can see nearly immediately in your face.If you don't have these side effects ,daro isn't an anti androgen or anti dht
i reduce my catch of CPA.I take it only every 3 days and i don't have any side effects and my hair don't fall.Every 2 days,i have sides effects like dizzy turns
But I advise you to stop all these craps and shave your head.You 're men .Hair are less important for you.Your health is more important than your hair

You don't get to tell anyone what's important or not. Buy a wig and f*** off.

 

[whatevr]

Any change in your hair loss on enza? Either way give it 2 months on daro before drawing a conclusion. Minoxidil directly causes itching for me which is normal based on mechanism of action but that does not mean it is hurting my hair.

Ie. Itching is not always representative of effect.

When I was on high dose daro of 10 mg twice a day my itch went up too because it dried out my skin like crazy.

Watch your shedding and for results in a few months. That's what actually matters.

Estrogen is the only thing that quells the awful inflammation and pain in my scalp that I get when I press down on it, and consequently, the only thing that ever gave me regrowth besides minoxidil. The side effects are limiting though. RU and finasteride are garbage in this regard, never helped anything. I can use the way my scalp feels to gauge if I am losing hair, and judging by that the only things that made it feel normal are also those that give regrowth.

 

[Sanchez1234]

One week 0.1% daro 1ml once a day update:
Results: none, still losing my hair rapidly
Sides: It feels like my body is at war with this stuff, but still managable so far. I have muscle soreness and my nipple is hurting even on 20mg tamoxifen.
Future: Will continue this, thinking about changing my eth/pg vehicle to RU+5%minoxidil vehicle.