Darolutamide (odm-201), A Better Topical Than Enzalutamide?

[IdealForehead]

So what does happen if you apply leave it for a few minutes then wash it off? Obviously it won't be as effective but shouldn't that mean almost no systematic absorption?

Doing that won't change systemic absorption directly. It would just limit your total amount of daro, as you'd probably wash 50%+ of whatever you apply off if you rinsed after 5 minutes.

It would be impossible to know how much will get to the follicles in that 5 minutes. Daro's so strong you wouldn't need much so it would be a possible viable approach probably. Just like using nizoral shampoo for 5 minutes then rinsing.

In principle daro could even be formulated just like nizoral as a shampoo you apply for 5 min then rinse. Either way, by "cleaning off your hair and scalp" after a limited application time, it would definitely reduce transference risk through the rest of the day, as you hopefully shouldn't have anything left on the outside of your scalp after rinsing. (You would just have whatever little daro absorbed into your scalp, and once it's "inside" your scalp it's not a risk to anyone else but you.)

It's an interesting concept. But if you've got a baby that's gonna have a bath in the tub next, I wouldn't recommend it either way. Neither will Bayer. That's a risk I believe they're never gonna take. Especially not for a cosmetic treatment.

This would still have to be considered an "off label" use, and though safer than applying it to your scalp and leaving it there all day, still potentially risky to others.

 

[Jonnyyy]

Doing that won't change systemic absorption directly. It would just limit your total amount of daro, as you'd probably wash 50%+ of whatever you apply off if you rinsed after 5 minutes.

It would be impossible to know how much will get to the follicles in that 5 minutes. Daro's so strong you wouldn't need much so it would be a possible viable approach probably. Just like using nizoral shampoo for 5 minutes then rinsing.

In principle daro could even be formulated just like nizoral as a shampoo you apply for 5 min then rinse. Either way, by "cleaning off your hair and scalp" after a limited application time, it would definitely reduce transference risk through the rest of the day, as you hopefully shouldn't have anything left on the outside of your scalp after rinsing. (You would just have whatever little daro absorbed into your scalp, and once it's "inside" your scalp it's not a risk to anyone else but you.)

It's an interesting concept. But if you've got a baby that's gonna have a bath in the tub next, I wouldn't recommend it either way. Neither will Bayer. That's a risk I believe they're never gonna take. Especially not for a cosmetic treatment.

This would still have to be considered an "off label" use, and though safer than applying it to your scalp and leaving it there all day, still potentially risky to others.

Ideal make us a Daro shampoo lol.

 

[furrydome]

I'm joining the Daro experiment. Package arrives today, will keep you all informed of effects both positive and negative, though no pics (just not comfortable with it).

FWIW I'm wary of even mentioning it here. This isn't something that we want to let blow up like SwissTemples did. We really don't want less informed or less careful people doing this. My main concerns:

1. Someone hurting themselves or others
   
2. Authorities stepping in and cutting off supply
3. The patent holder stepping in and cutting off supply
   
4. More suppliers of lesser quality getting involved and selling unsafe substances

How could any of these happen?
#1:

• Incorrect or just careless dosing
  
• Using a chemical without having it tested first
• Using a chemical with dangerous impurities - a concern for all of us, even if you're extremely diligent
• Allowing any kind of exposure to pregnant women or developing children (like IdealForehead said, this is why YOU, THE READER OF THIS should really not be doing it)

#2:

• Any harm done to anyone, especially to those who aren't self-experimenting
• Simply enough attention. If this hits /r/tressless with pics of someone gaining 2 or 3 norwoods in just a few months, it's potentially front-page material. Not hard to guess what would happen next:

• Masses of those uninformed, careless people jumping on the bandwagon
• Any of the 4 bullet points listed above under "Someone hurting themselves or others"
• Authorities attempting to mitigate damage. Customs seizure. Potential legal issues.

#3: Obvious. Enough attention to this and they will stop it. A multinational with ~$55B in yearly revenue can and will protect their patent.
#4: Speaks for itself. Increased demand will drive increased supply. We know China doesn't regulate labs.

So again, YOU SHOULD NOT DO ANY OF THIS. So far, the few volunteer lab rats on here have seemed reasonably careful. We can't expect that to always be true.

I kind of even think this experiment should be private and invite-only until we know more. Just my 2c.

 

[HairCook]

I'm joining the Daro experiment. Package arrives today, will keep you all informed of effects both positive and negative, though no pics (just not comfortable with it).

FWIW I'm wary of even mentioning it here. This isn't something that we want to let blow up like SwissTemples did. We really don't want less informed or less careful people doing this. My main concerns:

1. Someone hurting themselves or others
   
2. Authorities stepping in and cutting off supply
3. The patent holder stepping in and cutting off supply
   
4. More suppliers of lesser quality getting involved and selling unsafe substances

How could any of these happen?
#1:

• Incorrect or just careless dosing
  
• Using a chemical without having it tested first
• Using a chemical with dangerous impurities - a concern for all of us, even if you're extremely diligent
• Allowing any kind of exposure to pregnant women or developing children (like IdealForehead said, this is why YOU, THE READER OF THIS should really not be doing it)

#2:

• Any harm done to anyone, especially to those who aren't self-experimenting
• Simply enough attention. If this hits /r/tressless with pics of someone gaining 2 or 3 norwoods in just a few months, it's potentially front-page material. Not hard to guess what would happen next:

• Masses of those uninformed, careless people jumping on the bandwagon
• Any of the 4 bullet points listed above under "Someone hurting themselves or others"
• Authorities attempting to mitigate damage. Customs seizure. Potential legal issues.

#3: Obvious. Enough attention to this and they will stop it. A multinational with ~$55B in yearly revenue can and will protect their patent.
#4: Speaks for itself. Increased demand will drive increased supply. We know China doesn't regulate labs.

So again, YOU SHOULD NOT DO ANY OF THIS. So far, the few volunteer lab rats on here have seemed reasonably careful. We can't expect that to always be true.

I kind of even think this experiment should be private and invite-only until we know more. Just my 2c.

Not sure, if one should laugh or cry. Ive got already a feeling of who is going to hurt himself with daro first

Honestly, we need someone with pics, otherwise this is just blowing hot air. No one is asking for nudes, just a for a hair pic.

 

[countjulian]

Not sure, if one should laugh or cry. Ive got already a feeling of who is going to hurt himself with daro first

Honestly, we need someone with pics, otherwise this is just blowing hot air. No one is asking for nudes, just a for a hair pic.

@Jonnyyy is doing pics on his thread.

 

[HairCook]

@Jonnyyy is doing pics on his thread.

Thanks, good to hear!

 

[IdealForehead]

I'm joining the Daro experiment. Package arrives today, will keep you all informed of effects both positive and negative, though no pics (just not comfortable with it).

FWIW I'm wary of even mentioning it here. This isn't something that we want to let blow up like SwissTemples did. We really don't want less informed or less careful people doing this. My main concerns:

1. Someone hurting themselves or others
   
2. Authorities stepping in and cutting off supply
3. The patent holder stepping in and cutting off supply
   
4. More suppliers of lesser quality getting involved and selling unsafe substances

How could any of these happen?
#1:

• Incorrect or just careless dosing
  
• Using a chemical without having it tested first
• Using a chemical with dangerous impurities - a concern for all of us, even if you're extremely diligent
• Allowing any kind of exposure to pregnant women or developing children (like IdealForehead said, this is why YOU, THE READER OF THIS should really not be doing it)

#2:

• Any harm done to anyone, especially to those who aren't self-experimenting
• Simply enough attention. If this hits /r/tressless with pics of someone gaining 2 or 3 norwoods in just a few months, it's potentially front-page material. Not hard to guess what would happen next:

• Masses of those uninformed, careless people jumping on the bandwagon
• Any of the 4 bullet points listed above under "Someone hurting themselves or others"
• Authorities attempting to mitigate damage. Customs seizure. Potential legal issues.

#3: Obvious. Enough attention to this and they will stop it. A multinational with ~$55B in yearly revenue can and will protect their patent.
#4: Speaks for itself. Increased demand will drive increased supply. We know China doesn't regulate labs.

So again, YOU SHOULD NOT DO ANY OF THIS. So far, the few volunteer lab rats on here have seemed reasonably careful. We can't expect that to always be true.

I kind of even think this experiment should be private and invite-only until we know more. Just my 2c.

All stuff I 100% agree with.

Only things I'd add are:

RU actually poses many of the same risks to women and children. It's just got a shorter half life and is less potent. Topical finasteride has the same risks too. But people who are using these generally don't take it seriously. The same seriousness should be applied for all topical antiandrogens.

As far as I know, there can exist no law against running experiments on your own body with noncontrolled substances at your own risk and posting the results online. Doing the experiment is your own right as a human being. Posting it is just freedom of information and sharing your experiences. A problem might come from broadly ENCOURAGING people to use it without acknowledgment of risks, but even then, realistically if people are ordering experimental chemicals from China online and rubbing them on their body, I have a hard time believing they could blame anyone else for that but themselves.

This thread is now heavily saturated with dire warnings of both potential risks to the individual and others around the user, which is how it should be.

Good luck, fellow guinnea pig.

 

[countjulian]

All stuff I 100% agree with.

Only things I'd add are:

RU actually poses many of the same risks to women and children. It's just got a shorter half life and is less potent. Topical finasteride has the same risks too. But people who are using these generally don't take it seriously. The same seriousness should be applied for all topical antiandrogens.

As far as I know, there can exist no law against running experiments on your own body with noncontrolled substances at your own risk and posting the results online. Doing the experiment is your own right as a human being. Posting it is just freedom of information and sharing your experiences. A problem might come from broadly ENCOURAGING people to use it without acknowledgment of risks, but even then, realistically if people are ordering experimental chemicals from China online and rubbing them on their body, I have a hard time they could blame anyone else for that but themselves.

This thread is now heavily saturated with dire warnings of both potential risks to the individuals and others around the user.

Good luck, fellow guinnea pig.

What do you think of the risk of the government shutting down the import of the chemical?

 

[countjulian]

All stuff I 100% agree with.


RU actually poses many of the same risks to women and children. It's just got a shorter half life and is less potent. Topical finasteride has the same risks too. But people who are using these generally don't take it seriously. The same seriousness should be applied for all topical antiandrogens.

No one ever told me anything even remotely like this when I got topical finasteride BTW. They just said apply it as you were applying minoxidil.

 

[furrydome]

What do you think of the risk of the government shutting down the import of the chemical?

If they do it'll be as a reaction to something like people getting hurt, or lots of buzz about it in social media.

I think the first 2 rules of Fight Club apply here. The more we start saying "cure" and show off impressive new growth, the more we doom ourselves to eventually lose access to the stuff.

 

[IdealForehead]

No one ever told me anything even remotely like this when I got topical finasteride BTW. They just said apply it as you were applying minoxidil.

This is what I mean. It's something *I* personally believe is a significant risk for all topical anti-androgens. But it's not something anyone else seems to care about or think about. That may be a broad oversight.

If it is a real risk, it's not just a risk for darolutamide. It's a risk for topical RU & finasteride as well.

Take topical finasteride for example.

• Some amount of topical finasteride inevitably absorbs into your blood, even if it's less than taking it orally. ie. finasteride has legit skin-blood absorption.
• finasteride is toxic to developing infants and will f*** up their sexual development, especially males.
• finasteride will interfere with male puberty and maybe female too.
• In the radioactive minoxidil study, 41-45% of the applied minoxidil stayed on the outside of the scalp or ended up on the pillow.
• If topical finasteride follows the same pattern, how much finasteride is a pregnant woman exposed to when she (1) runs her hand through your hair, (2) shares a bed/pillow with you, (3) washes your sheets, (4) cleans the bathroom you're using?

No one has studied this. I think conceptually it represents an unacceptable risk, even if the absolute risk of a major problem is low. I think it is one of the main reasons no pharma company has released topical RU, topical finasteride, topical dutasteride, or in the future will release topical daro.

I remember reading once that one of the final unpublished studies done on RU was actually a study that involved assessing partners of the men who were being treated (in addition to the men themselves) to see if any significant transference occurred. But it was never published. Now I can't remember where I read that and how legit it was. But if so, it's entirely possible they ran the study, saw transference (or realized they couldn't rule it out completely), and just shelved the study and product.

It would also be difficult to draw broad implications of use, as rates of transference would vary a lot based on people's habits. eg. If a couple never touches each other and they sleep on opposite sides of the bed, that's gonna be different than if they cuddle and f*** all night with her playing with his hair.

Without studies on real world transference, it's all speculative. At this point, this is all just my opinion. But I have found it's hard to "unthink" it once you think it.

 

[furrydome]

It's something *I* personally believe is a significant risk for all topical anti-androgens. But it's not something anyone else seems to care about or think about.

It's a issue with all anti-androgens... I'm guessing it's not really on anyone's radar because

1. Hardly anyone uses topical anti-androgens
2. Damaging effects would be rare and hard to prove

So for anyone who's saying "aww but I REALLY wanna try this sh*t. the scary stuff is probably just BS", check out the warnings on good old Finasteride, from https://www.drugs.com/mtm/finasteride.html (bold text added by them, not me)

Finasteride should never be taken by a woman or a child.

Finasteride can cause birth defects if a woman is exposed to it during pregnancy. Finasteride tablets should not be handled by a woman who is pregnant or may become pregnant.

Although finasteride is not for use by women, this medicine can cause birth defects if a woman is exposed to it during pregnancy. Finasteride tablets should not be handled by a woman who is pregnant or who may become pregnant.

If a woman accidentally comes into contact with a broken or crushed tablet, wash the area with soap and water right away.

 

[HairCook]

It is not just topical finasteride.

Everyone crushing 5mg ones should also be careful as well. I think ppl should have learned in school that punishment follows not doing your homework.

 

[countjulian]

• finasteride will interfere with male puberty and maybe female too.
• In the radioactive minoxidil study, 41-45% of the applied minoxidil stayed on the outside of the scalp or ended up on the pillow.
• If topical finasteride follows the same pattern, how much finasteride is a pregnant woman exposed to when she (1) runs her hand through your hair, (2) shares a bed/pillow with you, (3) washes your sheets, (4) cleans the bathroom you're using?

Joke's on you though, my alopecia-induced anxiety and resulting inceldom has made the prospect of any woman so much as holding my hand extremely remote. Check and mate, science!

 

[countjulian]

It's a issue with all anti-androgens... I'm guessing it's not really on anyone's radar because

1. Hardly anyone uses topical anti-androgens
2. Damaging effects would be rare and hard to prove

So for anyone who's saying "aww but I REALLY wanna try this sh*t. the scary stuff is probably just BS", check out the warnings on good old Finasteride, from https://www.drugs.com/mtm/finasteride.html (bold text added by them, not me)

Finasteride is proscribed to woman suffering Androgenetic Alopecia though......

 

[IdealForehead]

Finasteride is proscribed to woman suffering Androgenetic Alopecia though......

Not while they're pregnant.

And yeah this is one benefit of being a lonely guy with few prospects who will likely die alone.

Nothing I need to worry about. It will just be me, my beautiful hair, and my precious chemicals. I'll make a beautiful silver maned corpse.

My only problem is my f*****g dry eyes! Driving me crazy! I'm gonna have to cut the dose more. Think I'm gonna weed out my RU first. Will drop the batch today down to 5% RU (from 7.5%). May or may not reduce the daro (currently 0.2%). May slowly cut out the RU completely shortly.

Overall still making gains. Still happy.

 

[Jonnyyy]

Not while they're pregnant.

And yeah this is one benefit of being a lonely guy with few prospects who will likely die alone.

Nothing I need to worry about. It will just be me, my beautiful hair, and my precious chemicals. I'll make a beautiful silver maned corpse.

My only problem is my f*****g dry eyes! Driving me crazy! I'm gonna have to cut the dose more. Think I'm gonna weed out my RU first. Will drop the batch today down to 5% RU (from 7.5%). May or may not reduce the daro (currently 0.2%). May slowly cut out the RU completely shortly.

Overall still making gains. Still happy.

Do you think I could maintain with 0.1% Daro? I've been off it for a day now and I'm gonna restart with that.

 

[countjulian]

Do you think I could maintain with 0.1% Daro? I've been off it for a day now and I'm gonna restart with that.

Why did you go off?

 

[furrydome]

silver maned

With any luck, that'll be cured before it fully hits us too... https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2017-07-dye-cancer-patients-gray-hair.html

 

[IdealForehead]

Why did you go off?

He explained in his thread.

Do you think I could maintain with 0.1% Daro? I've been off it for a day now and I'm gonna restart with that.

I already told you I think 0.1% is probably way too strong for anyone to actually need that much. I will probably cut to 0.1% or 0.15% myself on my next batch.

This is still all a game of complete overkill from everything I can tell.

I think the first step is to keep reducing the dose until there are no systemic side effects or they are tolerable. If that dose/formulation works for hair regrowth too, then perfect. If it doesn't quite work for hair, then we need to bump back up the dose and reduce the alcohol in the vehicle. Reducing alcohol in the vehicle should reduce systemic absorption.

And it's basically a trial and error process of adjustment to try to find a dose/vehicle combo which gives the best effect and fewest sides.