Darolutamide (odm-201), A Better Topical Than Enzalutamide?
- Thread starter DavidsDome
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 2,720
I do that but it’s like watching I bus load of children perish over a cliff. Too many to say goodbye too. So tragic.
Sanchez1234
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 311
- Reaction score
- 2,720
Seems like a few of us are doing exactly this. I think I still have maybe a month left of daro at which point I will reassess and maybe try another AA. I’m already decided on seti/sulfa/pge.
- Reaction score
- 2,720
Yeah I messaged ideal and he didn’t reply. I’m incredibly disappointed in him.
Well, it’s hard to say if it’s a fail because some claim it works, some say it’s useless.
Like anything else it may just come down to the individual.
peewee
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 89
Sure. The thing is you guys are losing cause either daro is not working or otherwise the 13% impurities are f*****g you up. I dont think anyones goal is here to castrate himself/end up with cancer or on the dialysis at young age.
So you want still to buy from someone called Gang?
13% has not been proven and this starts to sound like a troll and I don't have time to play with trolls.
So you want to buy from a someone called Gang?
Read your comment back a few times and you'll realize what a stupid comment that was, and I don't have time for stupid either
peewee
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 89
Nice to read this. We don't know for sure and from what Mr Luo wrote to me, The HNMR spectrum and HPLC spectrum are needed.
Let's all live in truth and facts, not flying off the handle on emotions. Thanks SpaceInvader
I'm doing well on my combo of daro and ru.
- Reaction score
- 3,025
Hey Guys,
Just thought I'd come back to say hi because I'm about to have my forehead reduction next week and frankly I'm anxious as hell about it! Oh god am I anxious. I've expanded the balloon in my head to 550 mL as of today. Thank god for fedoras. That's what I've been wearing to cover it which has been working well enough. Everyone just thinks I'm being "quirky". I'm hoping for a Bieber-tier hairline after the surgery which should be pretty cool if possible. At minimum a sort of Christian Bale level hairline which is great too.
I've been trying not to think about hair at all the past few months because this has been stressful enough without going on a hair forum where everyone is unhappy and obsessing with hair 24/7. I also haven't really had much to say anyway since for me it's just been "steady as she goes".
This has been a game changer for me and it continues to perform beautifully. I can provide a personal update if anyone is curious.
My current composition is:
- 40 mL Kirkland minoxidil 5% (base)
- 80 mg darolutamide
- 2 grams niacin
- 0.4 grams desloratadine
I apply 2 mL at night after showering and 1 mL in the morning.
In the past week I took out the minoxidil because I don't want that on my scalp during surgery (bad for collagen and healing). I have instead been using a custom base of 20 mL propanediol, 12 mL of ethanol, and 8 mL of water instead. My daro dissolves almost as well in that base as it does in Kirkland minoxidil (just noticed a tiny mist of powder at the bottom which never happened with Kirkland). Propanediol is so much nicer on the scalp than propylene glycol.
I also, despite my dislike of minoxidil, have continued taking 2.5 mg oral minoxidil or so on average a day (sometimes 5 mg, sometimes 0 mg) for the past few months to get the max regrowth pre-surgery. Stopped that last week also in anticipation of my final surgery.
Lastly, in the past 2 months, I gave into @bridgeburn 's logic and affection for estrogen at the frontotemporal regions and bought some over the counter estriol cream (this stuff). I've been using it to my temples and corners to stimulate regrowth and also all over my face for anti-wrinkle, anti-eye-bag, and anti-minoxidil-damage effect. There's maybe a very mild sexual side effect from the estriol in this high a dose, but I'm using quite a lot given the area I'm covering. If I just use it at the corners and hairline alone I don't notice any negative effects.
The estriol has been clearly very helpful and encouraging further terminalization of the vellus hairs that have been coming back. I wish I would have started it 6 months ago. Good adjunct for sure. Just realized my bottle is empty so gotta order more. It has definitely helped for the eye bags too from what I can see.
As for darolutamide, at the dose I'm using, I no longer have significant dry skin or eyes. I'm tolerating it just fine. I don't shed hair. My dad who has been doing my expander injections last week said spontaneously to me, "Wow, your hair is so thick," and told me it looks much better than 6 months ago. A female co-worker at work 2 weeks ago, after talking with her about why I was wearing a fedora the past few weeks (I just tell people "I had some scalp surgery" without clarifying), told me it was too bad I was wearing a hat because I have "beautiful hair" and asked me if anyone has ever told me I should shave it and sell it so they can make a wig, and that she would buy it. I laughed of course.
My point is, the stuff is working perfectly for me. I couldn't be happier with it. For me this is now coming up on 5 months of use, and I am fairly certain I will continue using darolutamide until the day I die.
I also note there are some questions in the thread about purity. I don't know where anyone else had their sample tested or what quality of lab it was done at. I also don't know if anyone else's shipment was as pure as mine. But I had mine tested at a top lab using very high end NMR equipment, and it tested perfectly at >98% purity. Just FYI, if you are doing NMR purity testing, it is essential you get it done at a very good institution, as NMR purity testing is far more subject to variation and error than HPLC testing with a known standard. My lab's results matched Luo's claims of purity.
Another point to keep in mind if you are getting purity testing done is you must be very careful that you don't introduce any impurities based on how you have handled the sample. My first shipment of daro was opened at the lab I got it tested at. I never opened it before. It was still sealed upon bringing it to the lab. If I were to test the same bag now the purity would likely be much lower because I'm always sticking a tiny spoon in there which likely has been introducing contaminants. So if you get something tested, don't open it use it first. Open it at the lab and use clean/sterile equipment to take out the test sample.
I wasn't planning on testing any further batches after that, especially since everything is going so well for me, but perhaps I'll get it tested next time I order just to confirm there's been no change in the quality of the product.
If I have any regrets it's just that I didn't find this regimen sooner and that I couldn't have another 6 months to really max my regrowth at the corners before my final surgery next week. But well, nothing is perfect in life. This is pretty good for me.
All I can say is I hope you guys can all find the same level of success. Be patient and hopefully you'll get it under control too.
Hair loss is always treatable and we've never had more agents to treat with than we do now.
Just thought I'd come back to say hi because I'm about to have my forehead reduction next week and frankly I'm anxious as hell about it! Oh god am I anxious. I've expanded the balloon in my head to 550 mL as of today. Thank god for fedoras. That's what I've been wearing to cover it which has been working well enough. Everyone just thinks I'm being "quirky". I'm hoping for a Bieber-tier hairline after the surgery which should be pretty cool if possible. At minimum a sort of Christian Bale level hairline which is great too.
I've been trying not to think about hair at all the past few months because this has been stressful enough without going on a hair forum where everyone is unhappy and obsessing with hair 24/7. I also haven't really had much to say anyway since for me it's just been "steady as she goes".
This has been a game changer for me and it continues to perform beautifully. I can provide a personal update if anyone is curious.
My current composition is:
- 40 mL Kirkland minoxidil 5% (base)
- 80 mg darolutamide
- 2 grams niacin
- 0.4 grams desloratadine
I apply 2 mL at night after showering and 1 mL in the morning.
In the past week I took out the minoxidil because I don't want that on my scalp during surgery (bad for collagen and healing). I have instead been using a custom base of 20 mL propanediol, 12 mL of ethanol, and 8 mL of water instead. My daro dissolves almost as well in that base as it does in Kirkland minoxidil (just noticed a tiny mist of powder at the bottom which never happened with Kirkland). Propanediol is so much nicer on the scalp than propylene glycol.
I also, despite my dislike of minoxidil, have continued taking 2.5 mg oral minoxidil or so on average a day (sometimes 5 mg, sometimes 0 mg) for the past few months to get the max regrowth pre-surgery. Stopped that last week also in anticipation of my final surgery.
Lastly, in the past 2 months, I gave into @bridgeburn 's logic and affection for estrogen at the frontotemporal regions and bought some over the counter estriol cream (this stuff). I've been using it to my temples and corners to stimulate regrowth and also all over my face for anti-wrinkle, anti-eye-bag, and anti-minoxidil-damage effect. There's maybe a very mild sexual side effect from the estriol in this high a dose, but I'm using quite a lot given the area I'm covering. If I just use it at the corners and hairline alone I don't notice any negative effects.
The estriol has been clearly very helpful and encouraging further terminalization of the vellus hairs that have been coming back. I wish I would have started it 6 months ago. Good adjunct for sure. Just realized my bottle is empty so gotta order more. It has definitely helped for the eye bags too from what I can see.
As for darolutamide, at the dose I'm using, I no longer have significant dry skin or eyes. I'm tolerating it just fine. I don't shed hair. My dad who has been doing my expander injections last week said spontaneously to me, "Wow, your hair is so thick," and told me it looks much better than 6 months ago. A female co-worker at work 2 weeks ago, after talking with her about why I was wearing a fedora the past few weeks (I just tell people "I had some scalp surgery" without clarifying), told me it was too bad I was wearing a hat because I have "beautiful hair" and asked me if anyone has ever told me I should shave it and sell it so they can make a wig, and that she would buy it. I laughed of course.
My point is, the stuff is working perfectly for me. I couldn't be happier with it. For me this is now coming up on 5 months of use, and I am fairly certain I will continue using darolutamide until the day I die.
I also note there are some questions in the thread about purity. I don't know where anyone else had their sample tested or what quality of lab it was done at. I also don't know if anyone else's shipment was as pure as mine. But I had mine tested at a top lab using very high end NMR equipment, and it tested perfectly at >98% purity. Just FYI, if you are doing NMR purity testing, it is essential you get it done at a very good institution, as NMR purity testing is far more subject to variation and error than HPLC testing with a known standard. My lab's results matched Luo's claims of purity.
Another point to keep in mind if you are getting purity testing done is you must be very careful that you don't introduce any impurities based on how you have handled the sample. My first shipment of daro was opened at the lab I got it tested at. I never opened it before. It was still sealed upon bringing it to the lab. If I were to test the same bag now the purity would likely be much lower because I'm always sticking a tiny spoon in there which likely has been introducing contaminants. So if you get something tested, don't open it use it first. Open it at the lab and use clean/sterile equipment to take out the test sample.
I wasn't planning on testing any further batches after that, especially since everything is going so well for me, but perhaps I'll get it tested next time I order just to confirm there's been no change in the quality of the product.
If I have any regrets it's just that I didn't find this regimen sooner and that I couldn't have another 6 months to really max my regrowth at the corners before my final surgery next week. But well, nothing is perfect in life. This is pretty good for me.
All I can say is I hope you guys can all find the same level of success. Be patient and hopefully you'll get it under control too.
Hair loss is always treatable and we've never had more agents to treat with than we do now.
Last edited:
- Reaction score
- 2,720
I had this fear when I’ve read other success stories and it’s been confirmed in my mind here.
The common factor is always oral minoxidil.
I genuinely believe now that people have had a false sense of what is working because oral minoxidil is such a game changer and no one knows how potent it can be initially.
As for me, I am going down the same road always was, even on duta, the same dose of daro as you made fresh every 2 days, oral minoxidil, topical minoxidil, enormously high levels of estrogenx, stemox, wounding, and now topical 17b which has turned out to give me uterine bleeding and nothing else. I shed on average 120 hairs a day, every day. I think if daro were to be as efffective as we thought it would be, it would Perform far better for the rest of us. I’m now almost at a loss of what to do. Oh; and bioidentical hormones are out, because all protestins of this nature have androgenic properties. Taking 17bE with cpa isn’t an option. By all accounts, diane35 should be a massive boost for my hair, but isn’t.
I’m really glad you’re doing well, but I no longer believe that daro is the answer. I stopped believing that a while ago.
- Reaction score
- 3,025
Why are you still on cyproterone? I thought last time we talked you were going to drop the Diane 35 and go to bioidentical hormones? What do you mean they're out because of "androgenic properties" of progesterone? Sorry but that's a bad call.
You only need the barest minimum of progesterone to keep your uterus from building up on the estrogens. If you want, you could even get a progesterone IUD and skip oral progesterone altogether, though I wouldn't, because I don't think that's necessary. My suggestion to you is the same as it was previously:
1) Switch to bioidentical estrogen and increase the dose until you have normal female levels consistently on bloodwork.
2) Add just enough progesterone to prevent endometrial hypertrophy (ie. based on ultrasound monitoring).
Diane 35 is probably a huge cause of your hair loss for all the reasons we've reviewed. It is a synthetic estrogen which is far too powerful, and it does NOT stimulate estrogen receptors in the same ways as natural estradiol/estriol/estrone do. A tiny amount of progesterone is normal to have in your body and won't cause androgenic damage in the context of a superpotent topical anti-androgen. And again, if you really want to minimize this, get a low dose progesterone IUD (eg. Skyla/Jaydess) and then you won't even need the oral progesterone.
I am very sad to hear you have not made the change, and sad for you you have not turned this around yet, but I am also then not surprised to hear you are still losing hair in that context. You're nuking your androgens with daro/cypro/duta while completely neglecting the proper estrogenic fix for your ovarian failure.
Until you fix this major problem, I think you will continue to lose hair. I have told you many times I don't think any anti-androgen will be the solution for your hairloss alone. I think your hair loss is largely due to severe estrogen imbalances being caused by your ovarian failure and the inadequacy of Diane 35 in replacing what you are missing. Diane does NOT remotely replicate what your body should have, and estrogen balance is as important for hair as androgen balance.
As for minoxidil and its role, I have gone for up to 2-3 months without oral minoxidil over the past 6 months (was giving me headaches and I was fed up with it at times so for weeks-months at a time I'd just stop taking it) with no restarting of hair loss when I'd stop. Oral minoxidil is good but it is not magic. I don't plan to take it for the next 3-6 months while healing (or use it topically either) and I don't expect I will start shedding again.
Minoxidil doesn't stop the underlying hair damage from androgens. Only androgen receptor antagonists and androgen production inhibitors can do that. And minoxidil won't change the underlying hair damage you're suffering in your unique case due to estrogen imbalance. So for you it's more complicated than the average hair loss sufferer, but still fixable with the correct approach.
An adequate androgenic hair loss treatment is always anti-androgen + growth stimulant. In your case you just need a correction to normal female hormone levels as well.
I have dropped minoxidil as my primary growth stimulant and I will update in 3 months but I am certain already my hair will remain stellar, because as I said, I've dropped it for long periods at a time already and had no regression. I've only been forcing myself to take it regularly especially the last 2 months or so because I want to know I've done everything I can before my surgery.
Last edited:
- Reaction score
- 3,025
For further perspective, @Georgie, look at it this way regarding anti-androgens:
- Spironolactone 200 mg per day stopped my hair loss as well, but simultaneously neutered me. Pretty much every guy on the forum that's used high dose spironolactone has stopped their hair loss, because it's a pretty decent anti-androgen in these doses.
- But Spironolactone 200 mg did not stop your hair loss.
- Cyproterone 50-100 mg per day stopped my hair loss, but with even stronger neutering effects as well. Again, every guy on here that's used this high a dose of cypro has seen their hair loss stop, because again, it's a strong anti-androgen.
- But Cyproterone 2 mg per day (in Diane 35) has not stopped your hair loss (granted it's a low dose, but still, in most women with androgenic alopecia, Diane 35 should do something).
- Dutasteride 0.5 mg per day didn't work for me, but only because I have a freakish/rare genetic resistance to the medication (does not lower my DHT - does nothing in my body). For almost 100% of men, dutasteride causes stabilization of hair loss and for up to 90%+ it causes regrowth (ref).
- But Dutasteride 0.5 mg has not stopped your hair loss.
If all those anti-androgens have not stopped your hair loss, and even using the combination of cypro + dutasteride + daro hasn't stopped your hair loss, then you must conclude that the bigger problem to address is not androgenic.
With the addition of daro, you are on:
- A systemic anti-androgen (cypro)
- A topical anti-androgen (daro, which happens to be the strongest androgen receptor antagonist available)
- A DHT production inhibitor (duta)
If that combination does not solve the problem, then again, it may be reasonably concluded that androgenic damage is not your biggest problem. As you have already addressed iron deficiency which in retrospect was never that bad, that leaves only estrogen imbalance as your most glaring and problematic issue.
You can and should still of course continue on at least some of the anti-androgens - they won't hurt you and will give you insurance against future androgenic damage.
But probably you will NOT solve this problem with anti-androgens or minoxidil based on the above evidence and tests you've already run on your own body. You absolutely NEED to fix the estrogen issue, and I sincerely hope for your sake you do. The longer you wait, the more damage you are suffering as a result of neglecting this.
- Spironolactone 200 mg per day stopped my hair loss as well, but simultaneously neutered me. Pretty much every guy on the forum that's used high dose spironolactone has stopped their hair loss, because it's a pretty decent anti-androgen in these doses.
- But Spironolactone 200 mg did not stop your hair loss.
- Cyproterone 50-100 mg per day stopped my hair loss, but with even stronger neutering effects as well. Again, every guy on here that's used this high a dose of cypro has seen their hair loss stop, because again, it's a strong anti-androgen.
- But Cyproterone 2 mg per day (in Diane 35) has not stopped your hair loss (granted it's a low dose, but still, in most women with androgenic alopecia, Diane 35 should do something).
- Dutasteride 0.5 mg per day didn't work for me, but only because I have a freakish/rare genetic resistance to the medication (does not lower my DHT - does nothing in my body). For almost 100% of men, dutasteride causes stabilization of hair loss and for up to 90%+ it causes regrowth (ref).
- But Dutasteride 0.5 mg has not stopped your hair loss.
If all those anti-androgens have not stopped your hair loss, and even using the combination of cypro + dutasteride + daro hasn't stopped your hair loss, then you must conclude that the bigger problem to address is not androgenic.
With the addition of daro, you are on:
- A systemic anti-androgen (cypro)
- A topical anti-androgen (daro, which happens to be the strongest androgen receptor antagonist available)
- A DHT production inhibitor (duta)
If that combination does not solve the problem, then again, it may be reasonably concluded that androgenic damage is not your biggest problem. As you have already addressed iron deficiency which in retrospect was never that bad, that leaves only estrogen imbalance as your most glaring and problematic issue.
You can and should still of course continue on at least some of the anti-androgens - they won't hurt you and will give you insurance against future androgenic damage.
But probably you will NOT solve this problem with anti-androgens or minoxidil based on the above evidence and tests you've already run on your own body. You absolutely NEED to fix the estrogen issue, and I sincerely hope for your sake you do. The longer you wait, the more damage you are suffering as a result of neglecting this.
Last edited:
- Reaction score
- 2,720
I spoke to my gyn at length about bioidentical hrt, and he told me that my option were definitely 17b progynova for a woman my age, and a progestin like provera. I asked about the most natural way to go about it, and he said that everything is synthetic regardless of how they might mimic hormones in the body, and all progestins aside from the specifically anti-androgenic ones whether they are natural or not, have an androgenic aspect of affinity which is why so many women find their hairloss is worsened on menopausal hrt. I’m backed into a corner.
IUD’s are known to cause hairloss for similar reasons. I know girls who have gone through this. I asked if I could take a low dose of cpa with 17b and it’s not possible. I cannot take high doses of 17b because of its very strong connection to cancer, moreso than ethinyl estradiol. I have also discussed with naturopaths and a female health doctor who all agree that I’m either on the pill or nothing. I am stuck.
Oh also I asked my sister who was on bio hormones for a while for pregnancy how it was. She said that it’s terrible for anyone prone to depression, because these progesterones are the worst for mood. So it’s a no.
Last edited:
- Reaction score
- 3,025
Cyproterone is worse for mood than ANY other progesterone. "It has been reported that as many as 20 to 30% of women treated with cyproterone for hirsutism (dosage range 25–100 mg) may show depressive symptoms. Also, a study found that around 20% of women treated with Dianette (which contains only 2 mg CPA) for contraceptive purposes developed depression." (ref)
The Skyla/Jaydess IUD has only a 3.8% risk of depression by contrast (ref).
Alopecia is listed as only a 1.2% risk of the Skyla/Jaydess IUD as well. If this is due to the androgenic activity of the more natural structured progesterone, a strong topical antiandrogen would more than easily enough block that. Or if you don't trust a topical, you could take spironolactone as well with it. Either way it won't matter, since this is not a significant risk for you to be basing your decisions on.
If you want to avoid getting an IUD though or taking prometrium regularly, you could get away probably with only having 3-4 periods a year by just taking the prometrium for a few weeks or so each time to stimulate a bleed. Daro should be more than strong enough to stop any damage from prometrium. But if you're worried about the androgenicity from that and don't trust daro, again, you could take spironolactone with it during those few weeks each time to help. Heck, you could take flutamide if you wanted. Again, it's not a big issue.
"High doses" of 17 beta-estradiol have nothing to do with anything. No one is suggesting you take "high doses" - just enough to get you to the normal range of female estrogen levels that you should naturally have already. Part of why I have been so liberal with experimentation in chemicals myself is I do not get preoccupied with what 30 years from now might bring. I live a pretty healthy lifestyle, as do you, and I hope things will balance themselves out. At many times I have not been sure if I will still be around in 30+ years, though I feel more happy these days, so probably I will be.
Either way, I would focus on fixing your problem and not theoretical risks from natural female hormones. ALL women with normal hormone levels suffer risks of cancer from 17B-estradiol. This is a normal part of being a woman.
Lastly, your body does not know the difference between a chemically synthesized molecule that is made in a lab and one that is made in your body if they have identical structures. This is the point of bio-identical hormones. They are chemically identical to what your body should naturally have but is missing.
This is 17B-estradiol made naturally in a woman's body:
And this is 17B-estradiol made in a lab:
They are identical, because they are the same chemical compound. When I describe ethinyl estradiol as "synthetic", I am not referring to the fact that it is made in a lab. I am referring to the fact that it doesn't exist naturally in a normal woman's body. Where it is made is irrelevant. How it interacts with your natural evolution-given estrogen receptors is what matters. And ethinyl estradiol will NOT do the same thing as natural structured estradiol/estriol/estrone.
You are not stuck. You are not backed into a corner. You are holding yourself hostage with your commitment to Diane 35 and persisting with it despite the face that you are clearly continuing to lose massive ground on it.
Look Georgie, I can't make you do anything, but I think you need to take a look at the failure you've had on Diane 35, where your hair and self-perception is heading, and ask yourself, at what point is it worth trying something different?
You've clearly maxed out the anti-androgenic therapy to incredible levels and it's not getting you what you want. Why not try to work on fixing the estrogens next?
Last edited:
- Reaction score
- 3,985
For you guys taking oral minoxidil, do you find taking it 1x a day to be sufficient? or is splitting the dosage due to the short half life better?
@Georgie @IdealForehead
@Georgie @IdealForehead
- Reaction score
- 3,025
I hated taking it so much due primarily to the headaches it would cause me that my usage has been almost completely random when I force myself to do it. It's like "Do I really want to risk having a headache today? Okay f*** it, 5 mg down the hatch" and other days I just said no thanks.
Usual dose people around here tend to do for hair is 2.5-5 mg twice daily. I've seen some people do 10 mg twice daily but that would be pretty heavy duty for me at least. I can get away with 5 mg daily total for maybe 5 days in a row before I'd have to take a day or two off.
The other thing you have to think about with oral minoxidil is because it's so proinflammatory and anti-collagen, what is it doing to your knees and joints over time? It's probably not a good idea for a variety of reasons.
I only took it as much as I could handle the past 6 months because of my surgery and being on a deadline from that. Otherwise, I wouldn't really mess around too much with it.
Last edited:
peewee
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 89
Welcome back ideal. I'm happy to have you back and to hear you're doing well.
I'm doing ok on daro and ru together and I really want to try more daro and see if I can lower or quit ru. So I need to buy more and I'm going to ask Mr Luo for a mini group buy, if anyone wants to purchase with me let's see if we can get a better price. I'll post his reply when I hear back from him.
I'm doing ok on daro and ru together and I really want to try more daro and see if I can lower or quit ru. So I need to buy more and I'm going to ask Mr Luo for a mini group buy, if anyone wants to purchase with me let's see if we can get a better price. I'll post his reply when I hear back from him.
- Reaction score
- 2,720
Depends on your tolerance. Some can take 5-10mg without issues, I can’t go above 2.5mg without quite severe sides
- Reaction score
- 2,720
I can only go off what hormonal experts tell me. My gyn deals with women who have PCOS all the time, and often prescribes Diane for their hair issues. When I asked him “have you ever seen worsening of hairloss on Diane?” His said flatly never, only the older bcps with a high androgen index. When I asked him in bioidentical hrt will worsen my condition he said “I have seen this happen quite often with menopausal women, yes”.
So you tell me how I’m supposed to feel about this information? Then my sister tells me that provera worsened her depression far more than any bcp. The female health specialist tells me that a woman my age should stay well away from menopausal-type bioidentical hrt. All the sh*t I’ve read on forums has told me that I will be in a far worse position if I start bioidentical hrt. In fact, women have BEGUN losing hair on it.
Can you appreciate how incredibly frightening this is for me? I am at the point where I am going to just give up on oral estrgoens and use a high % topical and maybe take some f*****g cpa so I don’t get cancer. Diane35 does not cause hairloss whilst you’re on it. It’s renowned for hairloss once you stop taking it. In fact, I believe that it’s what was the final kicker for my hormones at the beginning of 2014 when I had briefly been on it then stopped.
There’s also the issue of the incredibly pain that I’m likely to expeicne if I change my
Hormones. You’ll never know because you don’t have ovaries, but it’s like your insides are being dragged out. All of these things I must consider and potentially deal with, along with the knowledge that whatever changes I may make WILL cause shedding. Undoubtedly. It’s easy to say “make this switch” but the impact upon my incredibly hormone sensitive body could be immense.
- Reaction score
- 3,025
My opinion is this.
Taking Diane 35 while you have normal hormone production ongoing (ie. normal woman with PCOS) is not the same thing as taking Diane 35 when you have zero natural hormone production (ie. you).
A normal woman with PCOS will still have natural 17B-estradiol, estriol, estrone, and progesterone in her body. The ethinyl estradiol and cyproterone they are adding will only "augment" the effect of those natural hormones by reinforcing them and binding preferentially in certain ways. But the natural estradiol/estriol/estrone will always still be there underneath, doing their natural functions of maintaining the body, including hair.
In your case, you have no estradiol, no estriol, and no estrone. And you are counting on ONE SYNTHETIC ARTIFICIAL COMPOUND (ethinyl estradiol) to do the job of all three of these natural hormones you are missing. But this is physically impossible in any real way, because ethinyl estradiol has different properties from all three of those natural estrogens, and each of those three estrogens have different properties from one another. Your body also converts between some of them in certain tissues naturally.
Healthy estrogen balance is all about that - balance. What you have is no balance at all. You are taking a very strong amount of ethinyl estradiol and that is it. So the only time any estrogen receptors in your body are getting stimulated, it is by ethinyl estradiol. Ethinyl estradiol simply does not bind to estrogen receptors in the way estradiol/estriol/estrone do. So you are not getting a natural effect.
What you are doing is on par with a guy losing his testicles and then instead of going on normal testosterone patches/pills/injection, he goes on Anavar (superpotent synthetic androgen steroid) and then complains because it doesn't work naturally or he starts feeling sick all the time.
Diane 35 has a high dose of ethinyl estradiol in it because it is mean to block ovulation in healthy women. It was not designed to replace natural hormones that are missing in premature ovarian failure. This is not what this drug is for at all, so it's not going to perform properly in this case.
I understand you are afraid of trying something different. But at a certain point you must recognize objectively that:
1) Diane 35 is not designed for hormone replacement in menopausal twenty something year old women.
2) Diane 35 is not giving you back a natural female hormone profile.
3) You have taken Diane 35 for a long time now and you have lost hair continuously on it.
4) You have now maxed out anti-androgenic therapies and had little relief from them, suggesting androgens are not the big problem.
5) Therefore the last thing for you to "fix" is your estrogen balance, and that means moving on from the Diane 35 you're clinging to.
There is a certain point where the fear of the present (ie. continuing your ongoing losses) must be greater than the fear of the unknown before a person will ever be willing to take a real chance.
Is it possible you could experience a telogen efluvium from a change in hormones? Absolutely. But a Telogen Effluvium would only last one-two months and then stop. That's not something to avoid fixing your hairloss over.
Is it possible in the long run that having normal levels of estradiol/estrone/estriol could cause more hair loss than you have now? I don't see how that's possible. You had normal levels of those hormones before menopause, and you did not have hair loss. You had fantastic hair when you had these hormones. So why would having them again now cause hair loss beyond possibly a shortlived Telogen Effluvium? I can't think of any reason.
It would only take a few weeks to get you up to a normal level of estradiol/estrone/estriol based on the possible starting doses we worked out previously in conversation. Once you're there and the lab has proven your levels are stable, you can decide what you want to do about progesterone. Progesterone isn't at all urgent. You could decide on what to do with that even 2-3 months after starting the bioidentical estrogen replacement. At that point, take prometrium for a few weeks every few months, or take it daily, or get a low dose progesterone IUD. Up to you.
All of these things would far better mirror your natural normal hormone profile. And when you had a natural normal hormone profile, you weren't losing hair. You had fantastic hair.
So yeah, I can see why it would be scary for you, and I can imagine it wouldn't be fun to make the change. But at a certain point, you're going to have to make a decision. And the longer you wait around to do it, the more time and hair you're losing.
Personally, I'm more the type to just tear the bandaid off. That's why I don't mind going through surgery and plan to go through plenty more (jaws, etc). Pain and things like Telogen Effluvium are temporary. If the Telogen Effluvium bothers you so much, wear hats for a few months like I just did with my expander. Once you get the problem fixed and get through to the other side, everything's smooth and easy, and you can revel in your success. So it's always worth trying.
At a minimum, it's better than just continuing to spiral into oblivion with no chance for real change in sight. What's the point in that? You know where things will continue to go if you continue doing what you're doing. You've done it long enough already.
- Reaction score
- 2,720
A woman with PCOS, well any woman for that matter on Diane35 is exactly the same as me whilst we are all taking that pill. There's no underlying hormonal activity when you are taking the pill. It totally blocks the release of gonadotropin hormone, so it is ONLY the progetstins and EEs inside your body. All other female hormones are 100% suppressed, so his opinion there is very valid. It wouldn't matter if i had normal hormone production whilst taking the pill. It would be wiped out anyway. There's simply no such thing as having protective natural hormones underneath synthetic hormone replacement.
I do see where you are coming from. I have been doing a lot of research about bodily tissues requiring particularly 17B in order for oestrogen receptors to be properly activated. It's part of why i tentatively decided to try a topical 17b.
I have to apologise as i have been wrong about something. Indeed, prometrium is a low androgen index progesterone, and shouldn't elevate levels of 17-OP. I did read a few studies where women with both adrenal and ovarian androgen over-production took this micronised version of progesterone and saw no negative elevations in serum dheas or 17op. This may indeed be an option for me.
I worry about what cycling the hormones will do to me. I believe that the dosage recommendation is 12 days continuous use 200mg within the 28 day cycle. I remember when i began bleeding again in 2015, my hair would shed EVERY SINGLE TIME it happened. I feel like my body is now just totally ruined and can't respond to hormonal fluctuation normally. It just freaks out. I don't know. There's also the issue of the very minimal dose of oestrogen that i would be taking - 2mg. My gyn said that would be that max i could take, and i would be afraid to go against his word because well quite frankly i don't want to get cancer.
For now, i only have a prescription for progynova and prometrium. I would need to get prometrium from somewhere if i did want to try this, because there's no f*****g way in hell that i am ever touching provera. Else i just come off the pill and let the chips fall where they may, perhaps just use a topical estrogen.