CBS Philly News Article: Propecia Suicide!!!

[Mens Rea]

Great post, DoctorHouse. I was going to reply with something similar, but your post was much more eloquent than mine would have been.

This article is spinning the story as: Young guy takes finasteride, has permanent sexual problems and commits suicide because of it. This is quite shortsighted. This guys post does indeed indicate severe depression and anxiety. As a matter of fact, this eerily reminded me of my own personal battle with anxiety years ago, and it could have easily been something I wrote myself. To me, this is simply more evidence that people are experiencing severe depression after taking Finasteride. This may very well indeed be caused by the drug directly, but it's hard to say.

Finasteride/dutasteride may very well have exacerbated pre-existing depression, but how do we know for certain Finasteride/dutasteride directly caused all his problems, and that they weren’t a symptom of the depression or anxiety? Almost all the symptoms he describes could have easily been caused by either of those. My point is that his depression is treatable, and the fact that he had such severe depression to the point of committing suicide indicates his symptoms may be a result of it.

My big problem with propeciahelp is the mantra that all the problems people report are always a direct result of taking Finasteride, and that only when the (currently unknown) cause of these finasteride problems are treated, will the symptoms abate. However, this is extremely counterproductive in the grand scheme of things. I am a firm believer that anxiety and depression are caused by the thoughts; not a result of a chemical imbalance. Sure, a chemical imbalance could absolutely predispose certain people to these problems (which might be the case with Finasteride) but I believe in this case, therapy would have been extremely effective in preventing this terrible outcome. New treatments such as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy are shown to be much more effective than SSRI’s, and simply rely on re-programming the brain through repetition (ie. positive brainwashing).

I’ve spent a lot of time reading propeciahelp. I feel it perpetuates hopelessness to its members, and generally discourages people to seek any type of mental therapy, even when most of them clearly display signs of depression. When you convince yourself that Finasteride is the be-all, end-all cause of ALL your problems, therapy isn’t even considered. Proper treatment and therapy very well may have saved this guys life, and it’s so unfortunate he decided to take the route he did.

I've seen numerous stories on Propecia help of members saying that once they forgot about their worries and got off propecia help they returned to normal. Seems to tell a lot I'd say.

Have you actually or are you just bullshitting?

Link me up, please.

Because all the worst sufferers don't even visit PH much anymore; they keep away from it. Many come back occasionally and report that their condition remains.

No recovery stories, from my memory, revolve around "getting of propeciahelp".

Jesus.

 

[Mens Rea]

This article is spinning the story as: Young guy takes finasteride, has permanent sexual problems and commits suicide because of it. This is quite shortsighted.

Not really.

This guys post does indeed indicate severe depression and anxiety. As a matter of fact, this eerily reminded me of my own personal battle with anxiety years ago

You didn't develop it from finasteride/dutasteride weeks after taking it. You didn't crash. You didn't have the physical hell to occupy the mental hell.

STOP COMPARING YOURSELF TO PEOPLE WITH PFS.

Finasteride/dutasteride may very well have exacerbated pre-existing depression, but how do we know for certain Finasteride/dutasteride directly caused all his problems, and that they weren’t a symptom of the depression or anxiety?

Growing tits? Physical sexual obliberation? Loss of memory, brainfog.

You're really reaching here.

Almost all the symptoms he describes could have easily been caused by either of those.

Would like like to explain to me how? Penile atrophy, burning, BLOOD?

My point is that his depression is treatable, and the fact that he had such severe depression to the point of committing suicide indicates his symptoms may be a result of it.

What kind of quack conclusion in this?

Maybe it indicates that his symptoms were so bad, and so untreatable he had no other way out.

You haven't even begun to address his long list of physical complications than onset AFTER finasteride/dutasteride. No reports of problems prior.

I am a firm believer that anxiety and depression are caused by the thoughts; not a result of a chemical imbalance.

You simply have no idea how the brain works or how important 5AR 1, allopreg or the other blocked pathways are to one individual. Not to mention neurotransmitters.

You contine to speak only about your own experience. This alone shows how influenced you are by your own expereience and how narrow-minded you are to think your experience applies to everyone.

Randy was given therapy.

You had one type of depression. Right? If you think that covers all types then you're deluded. I dare say if you had the type Randy had, you'd not be writing the things you're writing.

You are borderline telling me that if i get brain damage i can recover because you have recovered from your depression. Apples and oranges. If finasteride/dutasteride has messed up the chemistry in these guys' brains then you are way out of your depth.

Since you don't know what you're talking about, particulary in a case of a suicide, i would suggest you guys be a little more tight lipped.

Sure, a chemical imbalance could absolutely predispose certain people to these problems (which might be the case with Finasteride) but I believe in this case, therapy would have been extremely effective in preventing this terrible outcome.

He did have therapy. And he was actually being treated by some top doctors

I’ve spent a lot of time reading propeciahelp. I feel it perpetuates hopelessness to its members, and generally discourages people to seek any type of mental therapy, even when most of them clearly display signs of depression. When you convince yourself that Finasteride is the be-all, end-all cause of ALL your problems, therapy isn’t even considered. Proper treatment and therapy very well may have saved this guys life, and it’s so unfortunate he decided to take the route he did.

Your gripe with a forum is nothing to do with a ny particular case.

Can you not take a step back and think that maybe PFS mental issues are potentially very different from yours? Yours was naturally induced, PFS is most cases weren't - evident when you see guys go from normal inside a matter of weeks or even hours, when they crash.

 

[DoctorHouse]

Mens Rea, I am sorry to hear you have experienced sides from taken finasteride that have been long term but do you honestly think this story is going to make a difference to anyone who still takes finasteride or will decide to take finasteride. Maybe a few but, the moral majority will still take the risks regardless of what they read. We all know smoking has negative side effects, yet people still do it and the government does not ban it because of course it is a source of income for them. Now that we have the internet, its up to consumers to fully educate themselves before they start any drug treatments.

You can't rely on your doctor to tell you the risks or possible sides because he is going to tell you stop taking the meds if you notice any sides. If you insist on taking it, and your doctor goes along with it, then get a new doctor who actually cares. If a doctor refuses to prescribe a certain medication due to that fact he knows it can do harm, that will not stop the patient from going somewhere else to get what they want. I am in the medical field and I see this everyday. You can warn people about the risks and they chose to ignore it.

Randy seems intelligent enough to know it from day one if he had problems he should have stopped it even if his doctor said that is normal.

I am curious to your view. Do you want finasteride/ Propecia taken off the market? If so, how will it benefit YOU? What is your goal posting on these forums? Don't take these questions as hostile. I am just interested in knowing what your agenda is on here. If you think you are going to convince people to stop taking finasteride, I seriously doubt that is going to happen. If you think the drug companies should shut down? That is not going to happen.

You take risks everyday the moment you get up and leave your house. You take risks every time you ingest something into your body or inhale the air you breath. Life is all about risks and choices. Its up to society to educate themselves to prevent harm to themselves. If you don't educate yourself then, you will be lacking one of the most important tools for survival. Its sad how education is free, yet some people in society don't have any desire to take advantage of that. Its necessary for survival. If you want to play it safe in life, then don't take any risks. I surely am not going to live a life like that. I wanted to keep my hair so I still take Propecia and I still will regardless of what I read or regarless of what happened to you, Mens Rea. If I do get any long term sides that negatively impact my life, I am not going to blame anyone but MYSELF. You had a choice too, live with going bald or take a drug to try to keep it. In life, there are no guarantees. That should be common sense. You had no guarantee that you would be safe if you took it. The drug lists possible side effects. That should be enough information to say forget it. Yet you had faith in your doctor and the drug and you felt hair was so important in your life so you still went for it. You accepted the risks regardless of the fact that you had no idea that your side effect could be a new one that can last a life time.

I know alot about pharmacology and there is no such thing as a safe drug. If you don't believe that is true than you obviously need to educate yourself more.

Mens Rea, please do not take anything I am saying as hostile toward you. My tone is civil and mostly full of curiosity of why humans don't understand that every decision they make in life can have negative consequences. If this world was so perfect, Randy would still be here because he would never been bald and would live a life of total bliss.

My advice to everyone, think about what possible consequences might come from taking a drug even if there is no known side effects. Our bodies are not meant to take drugs, we do it for survival. Obviously, many of of think we need a full head of hair to survive. Educate yourself before you decide to take a risk in life.

 

[Nashville Hairline]

Weird that the news story focuses on Finasteride and not that he subsequently took Dutasteride - there isn't even any directions on the label for that one concerning its hair loss dosage cos it isn't even FDA approved.

Its very sad of course and the drugs are the likely cos if there was no history of severe anxiety and depression in his family but Merck would have a strong case in court if he was taking a non-FDA approved (for hairloss) drug.

 

[Mens Rea]

Weird that the news story focuses on Finasteride and not that he subsequently took Dutasteride - there isn't even any directions on the label for that one concerning its hair loss dosage cos it isn't even FDA approved.

Its very sad of course and the drugs are the likely cos if there was no history of severe anxiety and depression in his family but Merck would have a strong case in court if he was taking a non-FDA approved (for hairloss) drug.

Absolutely.

Dutasteride is the devil. I'm telling you, if everyone on here was taking dutasteride, there'd be a serious amount of horror stories.

dutasteride is pretty much a more potent finasteride, it inhibits 5AR 1 and 2. The fact that it has shown disasterous sides, and no doubt would never get FDA approved for hairloss, should be proof enough that its slightly less evil brother isn't exactly good for you either. Of course, we have plenty of deluded people, emotionally attached, who will never admit this.

Unlike Wuffer et al, i don't need for finasteride to be good or bad. I just need to get better. I won't be taking finasteride again. I have no agenda other than to help others be aware.

But yes, Merck could probably slide out of that one, although there is plenty of movement on other fronts, so maybe, all things considered, they could be done for contributory negligence.

Check this out: http://business.itbusinessnet.com/artic ... id=1465142 9 men suing MERCK.

No doubt all these 9 men just need therapy, though. Maybe Wuffer could do private sessions himself to cure PFS for all.

 

[Mens Rea]

Excellent post DoctorHouse. I appreciate your friendly and pragmatic tone.

Randy seems intelligent enough to know it from day one if he had problems he should have stopped it even if his doctor said that is normal.

No doubt he made a few fatal mistakes, especially by taking dutasteride, but none of the extreme sides were documented.

In fact, he said he read the FDA approval of finasteride and it basically deluded him into a false sense of security. Why? Because it tells you there are no such thing as persistent sides etc etc.

Obviously things are changing.

I am curious to your view. Do you want finasteride/ Propecia taken off the market? If so, how will it benefit YOU? What is your goal posting on these forums? Don't take these questions as hostile. I am just interested in knowing what your agenda is on here. If you think you are going to convince people to stop taking finasteride, I seriously doubt that is going to happen. If you think the drug companies should shut down? That is not going to happen.

I'm glad you asked this.

First, i couldn't ask for finasteride to be taken off the market. Too many people genuinely benefit from this.

ALL i, and Enden, ask for is:

1) MERCK to admit they were wrong about persistent side effects and the myriad of other things.

2) For MERCK to accordingly update their labels. They've started to do this now. Better late than never but still a long way to go. Their labels need to be open and honest about risks

3) Hell, even a second study to be forced through. Not going to happen though.

4) Mandatory pre-finasteride bloods. This is an absolute must. Up until recently men wouldn't even have thought it important to do this because of MERCK's reports about safety. Now it should be clear to all that this should be a minimum.

You had a choice too, live with going bald or take a drug to try to keep it. In life, there are no guarantees. That should be common sense.

Absolutely.

I'll hold my hands up and actually admit i was more aware of the risks than the normal finasteride user. However i was mislead by posters on this forum who told me PH was full of hypochondriacs and that finasteride didn't cause lasting problems.

So yes, i blame myself, but I am also bitter about not being more informed.


It's all about INFORMED CONSENT.

At the minute, incredulity is more prevalent than informed consent.

You had no guarantee that you would be safe if you took it. The drug lists possible side effects. That should be enough information to say forget it.

As above. It didn't. The studies and leaflets misled.


All i want is a smart approach to all of this. Propecia is a serious drug yet it's taken like smarties. Hell, half this forum have mild hairloss and are popping it without a second thought.

Too many guys pop up on PH years later having no idea what they had got themselves into. It's our duty for people to have awareness, and knowledge that in a small minority of cases, guys could face problems that are practically outside the realms of todays medicine (This is the reality).



In time, i would also like the root cause of PFS to be found. No doubt there are mechanisms here that we don't know about yet. There should also be a list of things people should look for, as being more at risk of being affected by finasteride. Potential examples***:

- History of depression
- High estrogen levels
- Previous sexual problems
- Low vitamin D levels
- Low tesosterone levels
- Other endoctine "weaknesses".

***Pending research.

 

[optimus prime]

@Dr House

Are you on finasteride? If so for how long?

 

[DoctorHouse]

I have been on Propecia going on 6 years. The only side I noticed was watery semen but I seriously never paid attention to my semen thickness before I took it so I can't honestly say there is a difference. I also notice my body hair growth slowed down and I lost some body hair. However, thyroid problems can do that too. I used to think Propecia was causing other things I noticed but it was my thyroid that was off. As soon as I starting taking synthroid, I noticed many positive changes that I thought might be due to finasteride go away. I don't shed anywhere as much as I used to but there are only two possible reasons for that. It either Revivogen or synthroid. My hair seems to thickened up somewhat.

I questioned if Propecia could some how indirectly ruin your thyroid to my endo and he said NO. Who knows, maybe it can. However, I think he might be right since I notice certain things that were thyroid related long before I ever touched Propecia.

 

[Mens Rea]

I have been on Propecia going on 6 years. The only side I noticed was watery semen but I seriously never paid attention to my semen thickness before I took it so I can't honestly say there is a difference. I also notice my body hair growth slowed down and I lost some body hair. However, thyroid problems can do that too. I used to think Propecia was causing other things I noticed but it was my thyroid that was off. As soon as I starting taking synthroid, I noticed many positive changes that I thought might be due to finasteride go away. I don't shed anywhere as much as I used to but there are only two possible reasons for that. It either Revivogen or synthroid. My hair seems to thickened up somewhat.

I questioned if Propecia could some how indirectly ruin your thyroid to my endo and he said NO. Who knows, maybe it can. However, I think he might be right since I notice certain things that were thyroid related long before I ever touched Propecia.

Propecia can definately affect thyroids. See it all the time.

One guy in particular recovered using synthyroid.

What exactly had you taking it? Low T4 or T3?

 

[Mens Rea]

Damn, that's really sad, did you ever talk to him on PH mensrea?

No, he's been inactive since Nov 08 so im not even sure when this happened. It might have been a year or two ago.

 

[optimus prime]

@Monty

When are you going to update your story? I'm interested to know how you are getting on with different treatments.

 

[Wuffer]

Mens Rea, I know that pre-finasteride blood tests are probably a good idea, but I don't understand how this will help people should they find themselves in a mess with Finasteride?

Hormones regularly fluctuate. For example, if a sedentary man decides to become active and train for a marathon, 6 months later their hormone levels will be significantly different than baseline. The inverse situation is true as well; an athlete suffers a serious injury, and then is bedridden for months, hormone levels are completely out of whack. Arguably, lifestyle changes can alter hormones much more significantly than Finasteride could. This includes commonplace activities such as drinking alcoholic beverages. My point is that hormones never stay the same over a significant period of time.

However, I can agree with you on the basis that we find some common marker that would indicate predisposition to these problems.

I know you follow Dr. Crisler's methods closely, but I’ve yet to see a single person achieve recovery, or even significant improvement from his techniques. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Let's say someone gets a full hormonal workup, and then decides to take finasteride for 2 years. They come off, and then experience PFS symptoms. Looking back 2 years previous to their hormonal workup, see that their current levels are slightly different. What would one do at this point?

I'm still extremely sceptical that these problems are simply a result of hormonal imbalances. Much of what is known about PFS is a result of Dr. Crislers studies alone, and I believe his opinions are suspect. He boasts himself as an expert in the field of endocrinology, yet I am having trouble finding a single published medical paper outlining his theories and techniques? I think everyone needs to start looking elsewhere for answers.

 

[optimus prime]

@Monty

When are you going to update your story? I'm interested to know how you are getting on with different treatments.

I don't have a story per se. I have a large fluridil thread that I will add to soon. I can't add to it yet cos my information has been confusing.

In short it is actually working very well although a little while ago I panicked and professed to the contrary. I will soon provide photographic proof of new hair growth below the hair line. Problem being I have to have a hiatus in my useage now as I have just had surgery on my skull so I am currently using nothing but copper peptides at the moment.

Yes that's right. I am interested in that thread. I look forward to your update sometime in the future. I will also check out your other thread regarding the surgery.

 

[DIYtony]

You have to remember Crisler is probably making a shitload out of PFS sufferers, he isn't doing all this for free is he.

 

[Raxe]

Sometimes people with depression and anxiety issues experience sexual side effects.

Sometimes people with depression and anxiety issues commit suicide.

A proportion of the population will suffer from this.

Some of those people prone to depression and anxiety will also take propecia.

A few of the people prone to depression and anxiety while also taking propecia will commit suicide.

Clinically, people prone to depression and anxiety tend to fixate on things (i.e. side effects of propecia)

To imply causation here is highly inflammatory and egregious.

 

[DoctorHouse]

He said he noticed changes the first day he took the drug. That does not seem sound to me.

This to me shows how little you know!

From the retrospective viewpoint of having side effects immediatly within 24 to 48 hours of taking finasteride and then managing them for about 7 years untill quitting 18 months ago and side effects subsiding 80-90%, I can assure you that this is in fact possible and not pyshosomatic!

Not that you'll believe me!

You said 24 hours, that seems more logical than 4 to 12 hours. I think you missed my point. I know drugs have side effects and sometimes they are immediate but what he described just seemed ODD. I am not saying that I don't believe him or YOU. I noticed a change from the synthroid the very next day but not the same day I took it. Next day sounds a whole lot more likely then the same day but like I said I know its possible. I am not on these forums to attack people. I am very familiar with how pharmacology works. I know more about medicine than you think. I have 8 years of college behind me in the medical field so I know plenty of how the body works.

 

[DoctorHouse]

Propecia can definately affect thyroids. See it all the time.

One guy in particular recovered using synthyroid.

What exactly had you taking it? Low T4 or T3?

I have hashimoto's so my levels fluctuated from high normal to low normal but all in the normal range. My thyroid antibodies were high. By the way Mens Rea, are you in the medical field or you have self educated about your knowledge in the field?

 

[Wuffer]

You have to remember Crisler is probably making a shitload out of PFS sufferers, he isn't doing all this for free is he.

Dr. Crisler 'donates' much of his time to online activities.
However, I just can't say enough bad things about that man; his childish demeanor, questionable business practices, unproven treatment protocols, massive ego, etc. Many medical professionals question his ethics and abilities. Every time he comes and posts on a hairloss forum, he makes a complete *** out of himself. I simply can't understand how an intelligent man that wants to make a name for himself would act that way; much less a 'medical expert'. Thankfully he’s been banned from most forums due to his behavior.

You are right; he clearly benefits from providing 'medical treatment' to PFS sufferers. He also sells his own hair loss treatments, so it's win/win for him treating PFS. He's admitted himself that he has absolutely no idea what he is doing, and he doesn't know how to treat PFS. Yet he believes pumping these guys full of hormones and meds will somehow miraculously fix them? Men that have already shown to be extremely sensitive to hormone fluctuations?

Instead of spending all his free time on forums, he should spend his time publishing some medical papers that document his theories and treatments. If he’s really such a renowned expert with cutting edge treatments, why not pursue some notoriety? It would go a long way towards sustaining his massively inflated ego.

 

[Mens Rea]

Mens Rea, I know that pre-finasteride blood tests are probably a good idea, but I don't understand how this will help people should they find themselves in a mess with Finasteride?

Hormones regularly fluctuate..... My point is that hormones never stay the same over a significant period of time.

Firstly, hormones don't fluctuate as much as you think.

Over the past year, my levels were always almost identical until i began hormonal treatment.

However, I can agree with you on the basis that we find some common marker that would indicate predisposition to these problems.

Also, I think doctors should be strict with who gets the drug. No one under 18's. And nobody that's just paranoid about their hair who don't really have male pattern baldness. This is probably the case anyway, not to mention many guys get it online which kind of defeats the proposed system anyway.

I know you follow Dr. Crisler's methods closely, but I’ve yet to see a single person achieve recovery, or even significant improvement from his techniques. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Firstly, we don't even know many of his patients.
Secondly, the recovery rate on paper appears low.

He does report he has helped various patients. Take that as you may.

Ultimately he works along with Dr Shippin a top notch doctor in this area, so Crisler and Shippin are definately good starting points.

There are other top doctors too. Professor Bouloux from London supposedly has helped several. He has 40-50 PFS patients.

Let's say someone gets a full hormonal workup, and then decides to take finasteride for 2 years. They come off, and then experience PFS symptoms. Looking back 2 years previous to their hormonal workup, see that their current levels are slightly different. What would one do at this point?

Well a good example would be myself.

My post-finasteride levels are all ridiculous. High testosterone, raging high DHT (double the normal levels!!) and out of range high estrogen. I have no idea what my levels were like before so using hormonal therapy is speculative. Trial and error.

If i knew that my natural estrogen level, when i felt good pre-finasteride, was mid-range estrogen, then i could dose arimidex to try attain that figure again to see if that helps. As you acknowledge, messing with hormones is not something you want to be doing, so having to trial and error blindly definately doesn't help anyone's cause.

Ultimately it's something to help treat a PFS patient.

It would also show clearly differentials in testosterone for example. Many PFS guys find their testosterone levels drop through the floor out of nowhere. Thsi would be pretty telling.

Not to mention, DHT and 3-adiol-G levels. These are crucial. Especially latter. Most PFS patients exhibit dysfunctional (stupid low) 3-adiol-G levels....which is the primary 5ARII activity marker showing the intercellular 5ARII activity. It's a DHT metobolite. This is a potential root problem for many of us. finasteride messes up the body's DHT metabolism. Proof of this would be good.

Vitamin D3 levels is another big one.

I'm still extremely sceptical that these problems are simply a result of hormonal imbalances.

I agree. I believe many people with PFS have developed prostatitus for instance. Triggered by the fluctuation in size of the prostrate which finasteride, as you know, causes.

Other things too.

Much of what is known about PFS is a result of Dr. Crislers studies alone, and I believe his opinions are suspect. He boasts himself as an expert in the field of endocrinology, yet I am having trouble finding a single published medical paper outlining his theories and techniques? I think everyone needs to start looking elsewhere for answers.

He has a very good paper, massively popular, about TRT, actually. He's a good Doctor. He is a DO though which some people criticise.

Noone is looking at any on particular doctor for answers. In fact, if you read my thread on PH you;ll know that i've got an appointment with a top doctor in sexual health - a former urologist. This guy: http://wallacedinsmore.com/ Hopefully he'll test me for prostrate imflammation, candida and other things.

Propecia can definately affect thyroids. See it all the time.

One guy in particular recovered using synthyroid.

What exactly had you taking it? Low T4 or T3?

I have hashimoto's so my levels fluctuated from high normal to low normal but all in the normal range. My thyroid antibodies were high. By the way Mens Rea, are you in the medical field or you have self educated about your knowledge in the field?

I've self educated. In a way i've cut straight to the practical side of things.

All i know is that i can and have had detailed conversations with several endos on this topic and it's always been enlightening on both ends. That said, nobody is experts here, not even the doctors; i can assure you.

 

[Mens Rea]

Sometimes people with depression and anxiety issues experience sexual side effects.

Sometimes people with depression and anxiety issues commit suicide.

A proportion of the population will suffer from this.

Some of those people prone to depression and anxiety will also take propecia.

A few of the people prone to depression and anxiety while also taking propecia will commit suicide.

Clinically, people prone to depression and anxiety tend to fixate on things (i.e. side effects of propecia)

To imply causation here is highly inflammatory and egregious.

I absolutely, profoundly and positively DESTEST this kind of straight-line "logic".

It's just reminds me of how some people wish to generically band finasteride inherited ED in with general ED stats. Like that helps. It's all about the detail....finasteride ED presents completely differently than the normal guy having trouble getting it up.

YOU are guilty of not looking at an actual case and instead banding him into catagories to help simplify matters for yourself. To earn yourself an opinion on matters like this, you should atleast take the time to read this person's case. It's blantently obvious what happened this guy.

How would you like it, if you took a drug for say one week and was previously 100% healthy. After that week you stopped due to sides and shortly after crashed. They'd be jackasses like you, queuing up to tell you you're crazy.

This is happening over and over again on PH. It's f*****g scandalous how some of these poor guys are being snubbed by their doctors in their hour of need.