Would Anyone Be Interested In A Finasteride Response Test? Basically A Revamped Hairdx Test.

moxsom

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I've been working in a clinical genetics lab recently that tests for thousands of diseases and drug responses and thought to myself "why the hell isn't there more tests related to hair loss genetics?"

There's a decent amount of published science out there, but I'm thinking maybe no market. Although I don't browse these sites as much as I used to I still often see the question "should I go on finasteride?"

We know it works for the majority of people but for some it doesn't. There is some decent science behind who will get the best responses in terms of hair regrowth. As well, some people are more susceptible to long term side effects. Although it's not possible to tell who will get these side effects yet, it is possible to tell what side effects you are more likely to suffer from long term.

I quickly wrote up a mock report, do you think there would be interest in this? I'd love to get back into the game of helping to figure out hair loss

http://imgur.com/a/tLkeS
 

InBeforeTheCure

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Any idea why people with shorter CAG repeats in AR tend to respond better to finasteride?

And yes, please stick around!
 

hairblues

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Hmm Interesting I don't understand it but interesting...

I am a woman who is going to be trying topical finasteride next week...any thoughts from research how I can tell if I may be a good responder?
 

Trichosan

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Please provide some references for the science behind it, I would be very interested also if it seems substantial. Also, would the specimen for collection be blood or saliva? Possibly some regulatory issues as 23andme ran in to?
 

moxsom

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Please provide some references for the science behind it, I would be very interested also if it seems substantial. Also, would the specimen for collection be blood or saliva? Possibly some regulatory issues as 23andme ran in to?

Hey Trichosan, all the papers used to build this mock report are at the bottom of page 3. Let me know if you need help accessing any of the papers and I can try and help in that regard. It would be saliva collection, it's the gold standard for direct-to-consumer genetic testing.

As for regulatory issues, it's something I've looked deeply into. DTC genetic testing is definitely a grey zone when it comes to traits like hair loss, although the FDA takes health traits a little more seriously. When the FDA shut down health reporting for 23andme they were still allowed to report on baldness and bald spot traits and drug responses. However, they were not allowed to report on things like CF carrier status. The lab I've been talking to is CLIA certified and would be willing to provide help if the FDA tried to step in.
 

moxsom

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Any idea why people with shorter CAG repeats in AR tend to respond better to finasteride?

And yes, please stick around!

Hey InBeforeTheCure,

I'm a big fan of yours, I really enjoyed reading your microarray analyses. You're obviously a good scientist so I want to give this a good reply but it might take me a bit to write it up. I'll get back to you on this.
 

Armando Jose

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InBeforeTheCure

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Hey InBeforeTheCure,

I'm a big fan of yours, I really enjoyed reading your microarray analyses. You're obviously a good scientist so I want to give this a good reply but it might take me a bit to write it up. I'll get back to you on this.

Thanks, I look forward to it. I'm not a scientist though. ;)
 

moxsom

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Thanks, I look forward to it. I'm not a scientist though.


Really, you had me fooled! Where did you learn to use bioinformatic tools? I'll be impressed if that is self-taught in anyway.


Now to try and answer the question "why do people with shorter CAG repeats in the AR tend to respond better to finasteride?" It's actually funny because none of the papers on CAG length and finasteride response even attempted to elucidate the mechanism behind this happening. We know that finasteride does not actually bind to the androgen receptor, so why would its length in a certain area matter? I'll post the best possible theory I've read on the matter later but first I should explain a little about androgen receptors, although you may personally know most of this already.


As Armando posted above, it's a pretty well studied that CAG repeat length and sensitivity of the androgen receptor are inversely correlated. That is people with small CAG repeats will have a more sensitive androgen receptors and those with longer CAG repeats will have an "insensitive" androgen receptor (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12641825). Although this has been shown in many studies to affect things like bone density, reproductive functions, and cardiovascular risks, the role of CAG repeats and sensitivity in male pattern baldness has a bit of conflicting evidence. This is probably because hair loss is very polygenic (many genes involved) and the sensitivity of the AR may only play a role in some peoples hair loss.


See picture below for some of the factors that play into hair loss:
41667-e4abdb524c6b6d544551fbf0ee8e52c6.jpg


So the best theory on why this may work on those with shorter CAG repeats may be by the Andrologist Michael Zitzman. He says the following “Men with shorter CAG repeat tracts respond significantly better to this treatment than those with longer CAG repeats. However this may not be pharmacogenetics but rather a selection phenomenon: the men with shorter repeat tracts are probably those with androgenically induced baldness and this are more susceptible to a reduction of DHT”

I tend to believe this theory. Some young men will be more susceptible to hair loss because they have “sensitive” hair loss follicles in part due to this CAG repeat region. So when we take away the main cause of hair loss for them, DHT binding to the AR, it returns them to a state where hair is freer to grow normally. Men who have hair loss and longer CAG repeats may have essentially a different factor playing a larger role in their hair loss, such as in the WNT signalling pathway.

It is clear much research needs to be done in this area. I’d love to do it and the more I think about it, it seems like funding is going to come from this community rather than research grants. Scientists just don’t take hair loss seriously enough.
 

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Armando Jose

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Really, you had me fooled! Where did you learn to use bioinformatic tools? I'll be impressed if that is self-taught in anyway.


Now to try and answer the question "why do people with shorter CAG repeats in the AR tend to respond better to finasteride?" It's actually funny because none of the papers on CAG length and finasteride response even attempted to elucidate the mechanism behind this happening. We know that finasteride does not actually bind to the androgen receptor, so why would its length in a certain area matter? I'll post the best possible theory I've read on the matter later but first I should explain a little about androgen receptors, although you may personally know most of this already.


As Armando posted above, it's a pretty well studied that CAG repeat length and sensitivity of the androgen receptor are inversely correlated. That is people with small CAG repeats will have a more sensitive androgen receptors and those with longer CAG repeats will have an "insensitive" androgen receptor (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12641825). Although this has been shown in many studies to affect things like bone density, reproductive functions, and cardiovascular risks, the role of CAG repeats and sensitivity in male pattern baldness has a bit of conflicting evidence. This is probably because hair loss is very polygenic (many genes involved) and the sensitivity of the AR may only play a role in some peoples hair loss.


See picture below for some of the factors that play into hair loss:
View attachment 57020

So the best theory on why this may work on those with shorter CAG repeats may be by the Andrologist Michael Zitzman. He says the following “Men with shorter CAG repeat tracts respond significantly better to this treatment than those with longer CAG repeats. However this may not be pharmacogenetics but rather a selection phenomenon: the men with shorter repeat tracts are probably those with androgenically induced baldness and this are more susceptible to a reduction of DHT”

I tend to believe this theory. Some young men will be more susceptible to hair loss because they have “sensitive” hair loss follicles in part due to this CAG repeat region. So when we take away the main cause of hair loss for them, DHT binding to the AR, it returns them to a state where hair is freer to grow normally. Men who have hair loss and longer CAG repeats may have essentially a different factor playing a larger role in their hair loss, such as in the WNT signalling pathway.

It is clear much research needs to be done in this area. I’d love to do it and the more I think about it, it seems like funding is going to come from this community rather than research grants. Scientists just don’t take hair loss seriously enough.


Everything is fine, but we must ask what happens in common alopecia where only certain hairs are lost. Are they genetically different? The most logical thing is to think that they are identical hairs, at least at the beginning when they are healthy.
 

InBeforeTheCure

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Really, you had me fooled! Where did you learn to use bioinformatic tools? I'll be impressed if that is self-taught in anyway.

Yup, self-taught.

As Armando posted above, it's a pretty well studied that CAG repeat length and sensitivity of the androgen receptor are inversely correlated. That is people with small CAG repeats will have a more sensitive androgen receptors and those with longer CAG repeats will have an "insensitive" androgen receptor (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12641825). Although this has been shown in many studies to affect things like bone density, reproductive functions, and cardiovascular risks, the role of CAG repeats and sensitivity in male pattern baldness has a bit of conflicting evidence. This is probably because hair loss is very polygenic (many genes involved) and the sensitivity of the AR may only play a role in some peoples hair loss.

Very polygenic indeed. Have you seen the recent GWAS by Hagenaars et al.? With a sample of 52,000 men, they found 287 variants around ~100 genetic regions. I combined their results with those from this meta-analysis and from this study on the genetics of 42 traits. Based on (1) proximity of gene to SNP, (2) known role in hair biology, (3) known interactions with other associated genes, and (4) some other tricks for specific cases, I picked the most plausible gene from each region and came up with this:

AGA_GWAS_String_DB.png


So the best theory on why this may work on those with shorter CAG repeats may be by the Andrologist Michael Zitzman. He says the following “Men with shorter CAG repeat tracts respond significantly better to this treatment than those with longer CAG repeats. However this may not be pharmacogenetics but rather a selection phenomenon: the men with shorter repeat tracts are probably those with androgenically induced baldness and this are more susceptible to a reduction of DHT”

I tend to believe this theory. Some young men will be more susceptible to hair loss because they have “sensitive” hair loss follicles in part due to this CAG repeat region. So when we take away the main cause of hair loss for them, DHT binding to the AR, it returns them to a state where hair is freer to grow normally. Men who have hair loss and longer CAG repeats may have essentially a different factor playing a larger role in their hair loss, such as in the WNT signalling pathway.

I was thinking something along those lines, but given that we know androgens are required for M.P.B to progress, what I thought of was a little different. Consider this:

The 42 traits study found 50 genetic regions associated with the "unibrow" trait. 17 of these* are shared with A.G.A. The vast majority of these don't tag the same variant (or variants in high LD with the A.G.A variants). I assume this corresponds to the same genes being under the control of different enhancers depending on position in the body? In any case, to me this suggests that mechanisms involved in A.G.A are similar to mechanisms that determine "normal" hair growth.

* These are the regions near TBX15, EDAR, the HOXD cluster, PAX3, FGF5, IRF4, RUNX2, PRDM1, RSPO3, TWIST1, AUTS2, ZFHX4, ALX4, MC1R, PAX1, BMP7, and CRHR1.

Let's say for the sake of argument that AR can cause HF miniaturization through something like the following:

AR -> affects activities of dermal papilla transcription factors like Twist, Runx, Trps1, etc. -> inhibits secreted factors like R-spondins -> decreased Wnt pathway activation in HF stem cells -> decreased activation of HF stem cells -> HF miniaturization

Several of the SNPs around these DP transcription factors disrupt E-box motifs (CANNTG, which basic helix-loop-helix TFs like Twist1, Twist2, Tcf4, and Tcf12 bind to) including around Twist2 and Tcf4 themselves. A couple SNPs near RSPO2 -- one protective and one harmful -- disrupt E-box motifs. Therefore, there could be self-contained regulatory loops among these transcription factors affecting secreted factors like R-spondins. And let's say that past a certain threshold of activitation AR permanently rewires this network to reduce hair growth. This would depend both on the level of AR activation (which would depend on genetics) and the "switching" threshold for these downstream factors (which would also depend on genetics). Then you could maybe have acute effects on AR through this network, and also permanent effects through it's own internal regulatory loops, the latter of which would be analogous to the regulation of "normal" hair growth. If that were the case, we might find the following groups of A.G.A sufferers:

1) Those with a high level of AR activity, and low switching threshold among the downstream factors. Result: Aggressive hair loss poorly reversed by anti-androgens.
2) Those with a high level of AR activity, and moderate to high switching threshold among the downstream factors: Result: Anywhere from mild to aggressive hair loss. Better reversal of recent hair loss with anti-androgens.
3) Those with a moderate level of AR activity, but low switching threshold among the downstream factors. Result: Androgens still required to progress. Anywhere from mild to aggressive hair loss poorly reversed by anti-androgens.

(The opposite pattern might hold true for androgen-dependent development of facial hair and body hair)

Comparing the CAG repeats would select against the third group, and may also select against those with SNPs near AR that would presumably increase AR expression.

Is that at all plausible or does it sound like total bullshit to you? :D

It is clear much research needs to be done in this area. I’d love to do it and the more I think about it, it seems like funding is going to come from this community rather than research grants. Scientists just don’t take hair loss seriously enough.

Yes, the amount of research going into A.G.A is a joke. Good luck to you if you do pursue research into this. :cool:
 

moxsom

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I was thinking something along those lines, but given that we know androgens are required for M.P.B to progress, what I thought of was a little different. Consider this:
...
In any case, to me this suggests that mechanisms involved in A.G.A are similar to mechanisms that determine "normal" hair growth.

AR -> affects activities of dermal papilla transcription factors like Twist, Runx, Trps1, etc. -> inhibits secreted factors like R-spondins -> decreased Wnt pathway activation in HF stem cells -> decreased activation of HF stem cells -> HF miniaturization

I completely agree that androgens are necessary for hair loss, what I meant in my original posting was that the genetics of upstream/downstream factors could play a larger role than the androgen receptor genetics in long CAG repeat persons. While those with sensitive ARs due to the short CAG repeats, this sensitivity could play a larger role than negative variants in the upstream/downstream factors, although they may have a few bad mutations there as well.

I’m not sure if you’ve seen this review of signal transduction pathways yet, but it’s quite new and pretty informative.

https://www.intechopen.com/books/ha...alk-between-cell-signal-transduction-pathways
F1.png



So while I agree mostly with the rest of your assertions I’m not sure I can totally get on board with a “permanent switching threshold”, only because I’m not sure what mechanism would cause this. Epigenetic methylation could be one such method, but I don’t see it affecting ALL the other pathways outside of the AR.

Instead of a switching threshold in your different groups of Androgenetic Alopecia sufferers, I would say they’re probably just the cause of negative variants/mutations in all the other pathways we’ve mentioned.

ie.
1) Those with a high level of AR activity, and many negative variants among the upstream/downstream factors. Result: Aggressive hair loss poorly reversed by anti-androgens.
2) Those with a high level of AR activity, and few negative variants among the upstream/downstream factors: Result: Anywhere from mild to aggressive hair loss. Better reversal of recent hair loss with anti-androgens.
3) Those with a moderate level of AR activity, but many bad variants among the upstream/downstream factors. Result: Androgens still required to progress. Anywhere from mild to aggressive hair loss poorly reversed by anti-androgens.
 
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moxsom

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Hmm Interesting I don't understand it but interesting...

I am a woman who is going to be trying topical finasteride next week...any thoughts from research how I can tell if I may be a good responder?

I meant to answer this earlier. Although there's only one small study it looks like this type of test would work for women for finasteride response as well.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21410621
 

InBeforeTheCure

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@moxsom

I don't know what the exact mechanism would be -- perhaps methylation and/or histone modifications around key hair follicle development genes -- but there seems to be some mechanism for permanent changes associated with things like development of facial hair and body hair. Perhaps A.G.A is analogous to that, or perhaps not.

Penzo-Mendez and Stanger describe two types of organ size regulation: autonomous and regulated.

Examination of growth properties has historically involved two major approaches. The first aims to determine whether a tissue compartment is subject to a size “set point” by characterizing its response to cell number alteration. Compensation by changes in cell growth, proliferation, or survival is evidence of “regulated” growth: the compartment size is “sensed” and correspondingly adjusted. Lack of a set point indicates that growth is driven by an “autonomous” program, which is insensitive to compartment size. Even then, final size is not necessarily fixed, as the execution of the program might be modulated by intrinsic and external factors.

Hair follicles seem to be subject to "regulated" growth constraints. For example, from Lauster's group:

It has been surprisingly demonstrated by the inventors that the cells reach the level of differentiation and stabilization or regain their hair growth-inducing ability after several days to several weeks under the specific culture conditions of the invention, wherein the DPFs expanded following cell culturing are transferred at well-defined concentration into special non-adhesive cell culture vessels. In addition to the regain of inductive properties, it has been surprisingly found that as a result of active cell-cell contacts and exchange of signaling molecules, the cells subsequently form cell aggregates and differentiate. Under these specific conditions, the cells thus treated condense into approximately the shape and size corresponding to the physiological shape of a dermal papilla in a hair follicle following isolation. To this effect, the ratio of cells used/culture vessel surface is of crucial importance.

As a result of free contacting, the cells aggregate into a defined size, forming aggregates after several days which resemble the original papilla in size and shape. The expanded DPFs are preferably condensed for at least 48 hours, 2 to 5 days, more preferably for 2 to 3 days, most preferably substantially 2 days, and optionally further cultivated for 3 to 15 days, preferably for 5 to 10 days or 2 to 21 days. Size and shape of the condensates being formed likewise depend on the region where skin biopsies have been removed. DPFs, which are removed from beard, body hair, eyebrows, genital hair, or head hair, and subjected to expansion form cell aggregates of different size, which in turn determine the respective hair shape, size and length. Even more crucial is the initial cell number as inoculated into the vessel, which has to be in due proportion to the vessel surface. In another embodiment of the method, the cell concentration per vessel surface amounts to 2,000 to 50,000 DPFs/cm2 in step (d), preferably 3,000 to 20,000 DPFs/cm2, more preferably 5,000 to 10,000 DPFs/cm2, most preferably substantially 6666 DPFs/cm2.

Koh-ei Toyoshima, who works with Takashi Tsuji, alluded to something similar in his interview with H.L.T:

Keiko: Question 9: Studies have shown that the hair shaft thickness seems to be determined by dermal papilla size. If this is true then could it be possible to also control hair shaft thickness with the hair primordium method?

Mr. Toyoshima: Based on past research, the size of the follicle (that is, the size of papilla cells… the cells used in developing regenerated hair follicle germ) was determined based on the type of hair from which it had been derived. To put it more technically: follicle size arises from a biological principle that organ size, its density, and the distribution pattern is determined by a theory called the reaction-diffusion system. So using this principle, when we changed regenerated hair follicle germ, we found that the number of regenerated hair per a regenerated hair follicle germ, varies according to the germ size. In other words, the number of regenerated follicles may be controlled based on the size of the hair follicle germ, and type of papilla cells. It is thought that the size can be controlled to a certain degree by changing the type of follicles where the papilla cells are derived from.

Other examples come from experiments like Chi, Wu, and Morgan's, where they ablated dermal papilla cells, which reduces the thickness of the hair shaft. After they stopped doing this, the DPs and hair follicles returned to their original size as long as they were large enough to re-enter anagen. Hair follicles can also recover from ablation of the bulge or hair germ (Rompolas, Mesa, and Greco). Dependence of hair on minoxidil or other agents that cause hypertrichosis is probably another case - after stopping, the hair follicles return to their "equilibrium" state.

So it would seem that, at least in the case of facial or body hair development, hormones may irreversibly change the regulated growth characteristics of hair follicles...? A.G.A may be similar, though it's not exactly symmetrical since A.G.A also causes damage to cells and so on. And as for the "switching mechanism", why would it have to affect all pathways?

I’m not sure if you’ve seen this review of signal transduction pathways yet, but it’s quite new and pretty informative.

https://www.intechopen.com/books/ha...alk-between-cell-signal-transduction-pathways

Yes, I have seen that. Chew et al.'s lack of a control group bugs me now though...It's hard to tell what are the effects of DHT and what are the effects of other factors like cell cycle phase or other dynamic processes. Any ideas on how to distinguish between these things without a control group?
 
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