When It Comes To New Treatments, What Do We Absolutely Know Works?

[hanginginthewire]

And how do we know this? Let's discuss it here.

From time to time I see posts here and on other sites that say, "we know blah blah blah works, so it's only a matter of xyz" ....and I always am confused as to how they "know" this. All of the major players still seem to have questions surrounding them .....Can those that "know" a given treatment works (for sure) explain why or field questions from other users?

 

[Follisket]

Absolutely nothing until it's actually out and cured people.
Every single one of today's failed treatments or scams were once "known to work" or presented as such.

Tick tock, there goes another lock.

 

[cocona]

What has worked for me:

Estradiol Valerate
Spironolactone
Dutasteride .5mg
Stemoxydine 5%
Dermarolling 1.5mm ala Dhurat study.

What did not work:
Tricomin
Evolis

 

[hanginginthewire]

Silence is deafening guys.... Bueller? Anyone?

We've got the inmates running the asylum in this sub forum, can no one lay out a case here? Like I said in the OP, I see people commenting in threads with assurity all the time.

 

[That Guy]

Silence is deafening guys.... Bueller? Anyone?

Nothing.

There you go, that's the answer you want, right?

It doesn't matter what happens, you're going to be asking the same damn questions 100x over like you have been doing for a month, now.

Follica and Shiseido are the only clinical-stage treatments that absolutely have any efficacy worthy of a market release at all and I'm not interested in explaining for the 30th time why; you know why. You can argue that you think it won't be good enough or whatever, but that's tangential to the point.

Follica and Shiseido/RepliCel work; the others, we won't know until they are as far along as the other those two or publish some results.

I suppose an aside would be that "Samumed" works, but we already know its results are so sh*t it will be a miracle if it ever sees the light of day.

Every single one of today's failed treatments or scams were once "known to work" or presented as such.

Bullshit.

Sure, scams were, but scams aren't legitimate pharmaceutical companies or biotechs

The "failed" treatments were Aderans and Intercytex. I have never seen anything straight from the source that claimed these "worked", but rather that they showed promise. Which they did, and honestly, Aderans probably would've made people happy with what it could do, but that wasn't enough for the company it seems.

Histogen is probably not an outright scam, but not completely honest; but in hindsight, what would you expect from a company opting to do its trials in one of the most corrupt countries on the planet?

These forums are getting ridiculous and becoming a broken f*****g record.

 

[hanginginthewire]

@That Guy

Uh, you need to slow your roll. This wasn't directed at you specifically. You take a pretty disrespectful tone. What you just wrote was a bunch of doublespeak and circular logic.

To anyone else, While I'm obviously aware of the general lay of the land as someone who follows the forums and tries to follow the startups and so forth, there still seems to be a lot of debate. Three pictures in the Duhrat study isn't a whole lot to run a railroad on. It doesn't make me some kind of depraved insatiable Doubting Thomas because I'm not convinced that a workable solution that can apply to 95 % of hair loss sufferers has been developed. I'd think morale around here and in the community of people who are interested in aesthetics generally would be a lot more upbeat if it were KNOWN with virtual certainty that we know how to do it, it's just a matter of FDA clearance, etc. Whether Tsuji works on human cells seems to still be under review, Replicel/Shisedo haven't fully addressed their non responders, and they are unclear on regrowth potentiality, and Follica isn't even clear on what is contained in their "compounds." It seems to me there's a lot of questions, I thought this thread would be a place to gather some info or try to address them.

A workable, cosmetically acceptable solution for male pattern baldness being in the near future pipeline would be a big deal, no? If I believed that such a treatment were near release I'd have no problem making others understand or repeating myself, I'd be too thrilled.

 

[Blackber]

I'd think morale around here and in the community of people who are interested in aesthetics generally would be a lot more upbeat if it were KNOWN with virtual certainty that we know how to do it, it's just a matter of FDA clearance, etc.

You're asking a question that can't be answered, and that frankly has been asked dozens of times on this sub-forum. If you do follow the forum you should know this.

There's no such thing as a slam dunk in this arena and if there was it'd be so obvious it would punch us all in the face.

 

[nameless]

* Follica might work better than minoxidil + propecia but Follica has some details to work out, such as assuring that the treatment can be done safely.

* Replicel might arrest hair loss and might produce as much as 20% regrowth but 20% regrowth does not provide a lot of cosmetic benefit.

* Interestingly, while Shiseido is using Replicel's technology; Shiseido is using follow-up injections to try to increase the hair growth.

* Keratem might work but it has failed on almost all of the HairLossTalk.com patients who went overseas for it. Phase 2 FDA trials are wrapping up and results are coming soon. If successful it might be able to be marketed shortly after phase 2 in accordance with the 21st Century Cures Act. Regrowth looks like it might be about 20% and 20% regrowth does not provide a lot of cosmetic benefit.

* Tsuji is advancing the cause of cell based therapy and he seems like the best bet.

* Tissuse looks like it could be something special but I need more info from the upcoming interview.

* Tricomin seemed to grow me a little hair on me but wasn't satisfying at all.

* Minoxidil did nothing for me

*propecia was trying to give me gynecomastia so I gave up on it.

 

[That Guy]

What you just wrote was a bunch of doublespeak and circular logic.

There is no circular logic here, only just painfully obvious reality at this point.

You have two things that are actually moving along through trials to FDA/Whatever Japan calls it, clearance and are born of clinically proven science.

There is just no debate here.

What else do you have? A promising, but not foolproof cell therapy that even if it does come out around their projected date, is not going to be within reach of a large number of people for some time and it's the only one of its kind that actually stands a chance.

Other than that, you have a drug that's no better than finasteride in 2020, another topical that has already tanked so hard they're redoing the second phase trial, another stupid-*** topical where the science of it curing Androgenetic Alopecia is non-existent, and a growth stimulant that's probably never coming out anyway. Everything else is so far off, you'll likely be in your 50s before it even threatens to hit phase III.

It just shows how insane this community is. People are "doubtful" of the only two things with long-running clinical research supporting and nearly complete the necessary healthcare regulations, and instead are holding out another 3 years for something that hasn't even begun clinical trials yet. It's the logic of a quasi-religious fandom at this point.

* Tissuse looks like it could be something special but I need more info from the upcoming interview.

It's not. They're literally waiting for someone else to jump their hurdle for them.

*propecia was trying to give me gynecomastia so I gave up on it.

It either does or it doesn't — there is no "try".

 

[Christian Miller]

There is no circular logic here, only just painfully obvious reality at this point.

You have two things that are actually moving along through trials to FDA/Whatever Japan calls it, clearance and are born of clinically proven science.

There is just no debate here.

What else do you have? A promising, but not foolproof cell therapy that even if it does come out around their projected date, is not going to be within reach of a large number of people for some time and it's the only one of its kind that actually stands a chance.

Other than that, you have a drug that's no better than finasteride in 2020, another topical that has already tanked so hard they're redoing the second phase trial, another stupid-*** topical where the science of it curing Androgenetic Alopecia is non-existent, and a growth stimulant that's probably never coming out anyway. Everything else is so far off, you'll likely be in your 50s before it even threatens to hit phase III.

It just shows how insane this community is. People are "doubtful" of the only two things with long-running clinical research supporting and nearly complete the necessary healthcare regulations, and instead are holding out another 3 years for something that hasn't even begun clinical trials yet. It's the logic of a quasi-religious fandom at this point.



It's not. They're literally waiting for someone else to jump their hurdle for them.



It either does or it doesn't — there is no "try".

What the heck are you talking about?
What's the evidence you have about Follica?
The Indian study? Really?
What's the evidence you have about RCH-01?
The phase I study on 9 people?
Really?
Are you serious?

We have no evidence, loser. NONE!

Maybe we'll get some in the Conference? (don't really think so!)
But most definitely, we'll get our evidence next year, when the Shiseido study is supposed to be released, papers from Tsuji's team are also supposed to be released, and Fidia's results, too.
Therefore, shut the heck up and wait.
You are in no position to be talking in that tone.
Go make some music, and leave science for those who have a clue, clueless loser!

 

[That Guy]

What the heck are you talking about?
What's the evidence you have about Follica?
The Indian study? Really?
What's the evidence you have about RCH-01?
The phase I study on 9 people?
Really?
Are you serious?

We have no evidence, loser. NONE!

Maybe we'll get some in the Conference? (don't really think so!)
But most definitely, we'll get our evidence next year, when the Shiseido study is supposed to be released, papers from Tsuji's team are also supposed to be released, and Fidia's results, too.
Therefore, shut the heck up and wait.
You are in no position to be talking in that tone.
Go make some music, and leave science for those who have a clue, clueless loser!

Lol stfu. 2020 will come and you'll still be bald.

 

[nameless]

It either does or it doesn't — there is no "try".

I can't believe you ask this question. It should be pretty obvious that I meant that I was getting some nudges of gynecomastia but not full blown gynecomastia.

Let me spell it out for you - I did not get 36c boobies but I did get some tingling and burning in my nipples. I got off it right away and the problems resolved but I do not trust finasteride at all. If I stayed on it I could have gotten full blown gynecomastia and it could be permanent.

 

[nameless]

Lol stfu. 2020 will come and you'll still be bald.

You have no money to pay for treatment plus the treatment you're pining for may not work as well as you hope it will, and it may not be released at all for safety reasons.

 

[Christian Miller]

Lol stfu. 2020 will come and you'll still be bald.

A) I am NOT bald.
B) No matter what you say the fact you are a clueless, poor, egomaniac loser ain't changing.

 

[hanginginthewire]

clinically proven science.

I hesitate to respond, as I grow weary of your condescension.

But this phrase jumps out at me. In what ways is Follica, for instance, "clinically proven" - in a way that previously promising treatments were not? Just meandering through the various clinical phases doesn't cut the mustard. At least I don't think so. Have not the graveyard of previously failed treatments followed a similar trajectory? Thus far, when people press for specifics on Follica, what we seem to get is some vague appeal to authority: "These guys have COMPOUNDS. That they've formulated in a LABORATORY, like duh" lol. What is the SCIENTIFIC rationale for why Follica's wounding will differ from John Doe in his bathroom? I know there's a device and "compounds" - but can we ask for specifics beyond that? Is it a secret? And the answer shouldn't just be, "uh, they're SCIENTISTS."

The forums do seem to be at a low point but this thread was intended as a way of deepening understanding. No one tagged you or called you out by name so there's no need to barge in with your typical smarm. You seem nice enough and all but I've come to the belief that your arrogance on everybody getting on board with your opinions on the various potential treatments is indeed some kind of cope. Which I don't begrudge you for, cope on.

I admit I'm a bit of a security freak and I want REASSURANCE that there's light at the end of the tunnel. Guess that's my cope. I agree Blackber with your comment, that's why I'm confused when I see the bold claims from other posters, and not just ThatGuy.

Like, I'm not crazy. There's plenty of "2018 is the year" "Can't wait to fly to Japan to have my hair inoculated next year" "Tsuji will give me God tier...." Lots of triumphalist talk. And yeah hype train and so on but then posters who seem to have more actual concrete knowledge seem to hype as well. So it's challenging to parse through it as a layman.

Personally I think I will take a break from posting - probably until the congress. The idea behind this thread was simply to pin things down a little more. But I understand that may not be possible.

 

[H]

And well ask ourselves
Where is my hair
Where is my hair
Wherrrrre is my hair
Dying from DHT
See it, miniaturizing

 

[nameless]

I hesitate to respond, as I grow weary of your condescension.

But this phrase jumps out at me. In what ways is Follica, for instance, "clinically proven" - in a way that previously promising treatments were not? Just meandering through the various clinical phases doesn't cut the mustard. At least I don't think so. Have not the graveyard of previously failed treatments followed a similar trajectory? Thus far, when people press for specifics on Follica, what we seem to get is some vague appeal to authority: "These guys have COMPOUNDS. That they've formulated in a LABORATORY, like duh" lol. What is the SCIENTIFIC rationale for why Follica's wounding will differ from John Doe in his bathroom? I know there's a device and "compounds" - but can we ask for specifics beyond that? Is it a secret? And the answer shouldn't just be, "uh, they're SCIENTISTS."

The forums do seem to be at a low point but this thread was intended as a way of deepening understanding. No one tagged you or called you out by name so there's no need to barge in with your typical smarm. You seem nice enough and all but I've come to the belief that your arrogance on everybody getting on board with your opinions on the various potential treatments is indeed some kind of cope. Which I don't begrudge you for, cope on.

I admit I'm a bit of a security freak and I want REASSURANCE that there's light at the end of the tunnel. Guess that's my cope. I agree Blackber with your comment, that's why I'm confused when I see the bold claims from other posters, and not just ThatGuy.

Like, I'm not crazy. There's plenty of "2018 is the year" "Can't wait to fly to Japan to have my hair inoculated next year" "Tsuji will give me God tier...." Lots of triumphalist talk. And yeah hype train and so on but then posters who seem to have more actual concrete knowledge seem to hype as well. So it's challenging to parse through it as a layman.

Personally I think I will take a break from posting - probably until the congress. The idea behind this thread was simply to pin things down a little more. But I understand that may not be possible.

You're a good poster hanginthewire.

 

[That Guy]

No one tagged you or called you out by name so there's no need to barge in with your typical smarm. You seem nice enough and all but I've come to the belief that your arrogance on everybody getting on board with your opinions on the various potential treatments is indeed some kind of cope.

I know you didn't, but I think both you and H have asked me to explain my reasoning about a million times in the last month and it's still the same.

This thread seems like the same question you've asked and I, and I'm fairly certain others, have tried to answer to the best ability.

I don't know what you hope to gain here.

I mean, you asked what's going to work, I again say Follica and Shiseido and you have again asked why; just in a different phrasing.

There has never been, to my knowledge, a developing therapy aside from finasteride with serious potential to act as a functional cure for baldness, by any stretch of the imagination. There have been things that gave hope based on animal experiments, but when applied to humans, they never made it past phase II. Follica and Shiseido are within 36 months from release at worst. What else has ever come that close?

Follica and RepliCel both have a human benchmark to go by. We know that human hair can be grown by wounding neogenesis and we know that they are closing in on the final step to commercialization. RepliCel's phase 1 show that it stops the hairloss (so far indefinitely) as predicted and also demonstrated by Aderans in the past, as I must've linked to a hundred times last year. Actually, even Tsuji has some human experiments supporting it: Jahoda proved it's possible to grow human hair in a human with cultured cells from two different people like 20 years ago, which is why Tsuji's method logically should work if he can culture the cells.

Anyway, they do not spend millions of dollars going through all this bullshit and logistics unless they are sure it will pass and make them money and to make them money, they know it has to offer results someone will actually pay for. Puretech/Follica did their own market research showing that their product would have to offer cosmetically significant regrowth to win over the sizeable demographic who choose not to pursue treatment options due to poor regrowth. You really think they'd go ahead with something that isn't going to do this despite knowing full well that it must?

and here's the thing: Follica, especially, is essentially a collaboration of doctors and entrepreneurs with a number of impressive achievements, patents and inventions in their fields. Like, these people didn't get to where they are by being f*****g morons.

So when someone says, "What's close to coming out that will actually work?" What would make you think anything but Follica and Shiseido?

 

[Christian Miller]

I know you didn't, but I think both you and H have asked me to explain my reasoning about a million times in the last month and it's still the same.

This thread seems like the same question you've asked and I, and I'm fairly certain others, have tried to answer to the best ability.

I don't know what you hope to gain here.

I mean, you asked what's going to work, I again say Follica and Shiseido and you have again asked why; just in a different phrasing.

There has never been, to my knowledge, a developing therapy aside from finasteride with serious potential to act as a functional cure for baldness, by any stretch of the imagination. There have been things that gave hope based on animal experiments, but when applied to humans, they never made it past phase II. Follica and Shiseido are within 36 months from release at worst. What else has ever come that close?

Follica and RepliCel both have a human benchmark to go by. We know that human hair can be grown by wounding neogenesis and we know that they are closing in on the final step to commercialization. RepliCel's phase 1 show that it stops the hairloss (so far indefinitely) as predicted and also demonstrated by Aderans in the past, as I must've linked to a hundred times last year. Actually, even Tsuji has some human experiments supporting it: Jahoda proved it's possible to grow human hair in a human with cultured cells from two different people like 20 years ago, which is why Tsuji's method logically should work if he can culture the cells.

Anyway, they do not spend millions of dollars going through all this bullshit and logistics unless they are sure it will pass and make them money and to make them money, they know it has to offer results someone will actually pay for. Puretech/Follica did their own market research showing that their product would have to offer cosmetically significant regrowth to win over the sizeable demographic who choose not to pursue treatment options due to poor regrowth. You really think they'd go ahead with something that isn't going to do this despite knowing full well that it must?

and here's the thing: Follica, especially, is essentially a collaboration of doctors and entrepreneurs with a number of impressive achievements, patents and inventions in their fields. Like, these people didn't get to where they are by being f*****g morons.

So when someone says, "What's close to coming out that will actually work?" What would make you think anything but Follica and Shiseido?

If that was the way you replied to each and one of us, it would be brilliant.
You have to feel the way you make other posters feel in order to comprehend your appalling attitude, don't you?
Moving on.
Phase I trials mean almost nothing about a treatment's efficacy.
Aderans had some promising results from their phase I trials, but look where they are now.
Follica is just a fraction of Puretech. The fact dermatologists and hair specialists have mingled together proves nothing at all.
They haven't published nada. Why?
Because they are too serious?
Loser, please...

 

[vernon]

Follica and Shiseido are within 36 months from release at worst.

are they, though?