When It Comes To New Treatments, What Do We Absolutely Know Works?

[H]

H have asked me to explain my reasoning about a million times in the last month and it's still the same.

hey woah I only asked like 7 times somebody else got the other 999,993. It's not that I don't believe Follica or Shiseido will be okay treatments I just don't believe they will be sufficient treatment for myself and people like me. A guy in your situation sure a little hair here and there and a solid maintenance if that what you want great im glad it works out for you but I don't see it as a functional cure for balding. I see it as a functional cure for "oh hey I just noticed I'm thinning a little or f*** fins not working anymore, better grab the fancy scalp tenderizer and head to Asia to get injected." I hope it does well sincerely but as for reaching even remotely near natural density from noticeably diffused hair or any bald spot im not really seeing that out of this therapy from my perspective. Still good for some people though.

 

[gimmiehairorgimmiedeath]

Shiseido is really the only one I consider to be a lock for the long awaited finasteride replacement. It halted loss of everyone in the trial.

Tsuji is the only one that could give NW7's their hair back and we don't know if he'll pull it off.

 

[MrV88]

why so agressive all the time? you used to look smart and well behaved in your beginnings, but now you drift more and more into the character of Nameless, who finally got banned. (but probably it's only a ban for few days, everything will get back to usual soon when he comes back).

Whot ?! He got banned? Who delivers the kerastem updates now? XD

 

[That Guy]

They haven't published nada. Why?

No one outside of these forums gives a sh*t. I don't know if you've noticed, but the majority of clinical data on developing drugs and stuff never meets the eyes of the public until after it's out and even then...

The fact that people think there is some obligation for these companies to shout all their results from the rooftops is hilarious.

What matters is that the necessary government agencies deem it safe and efficacious based on the data.

Phase I trials mean almost nothing about a treatment's efficacy

From the guy who claims to have like, 50k saved so he can pay for something that isn't even in phase I.

Do you see what you did wrong?

Loser, please...

b**ch, please.

 

[cocona]

Holy sh*t this forum is bitchy lately.

 

[bigentries]

are they, though?

Someone need to pin this and remind him later, I've been lurking hair loss forums over a decade and we always have this kind of dudes that are pretty sure about efficacy and market release

People need to read the threads that were necro bumped recently. People have always been sure about release, efficacy and progress with nothing to back it up. And the excuse is always "this time is different!"

 

[H]

we don't know if he'll pull it off.

hey hey! take that back you edit that post take those words right back!! Let me live in my happy place as long as I want.

 

[Blackber]

I admit I'm a bit of a security freak and I want REASSURANCE that there's light at the end of the tunnel. Guess that's my cope. I agree Blackber with your comment, that's why I'm confused when I see the bold claims from other posters, and not just ThatGuy.

Your logic is flawed. You're asking for people to give you "reassurance" and 100% certainty but that doesn't exist, and when a poster gives you their opinion it's not good enough. A thread like this is only going to create more negativity and we already have enough of that on this site lately.

http://www.fdareview.org/03_drug_development.php - a simple google search will show you that 64% of drugs that make it to Phase 3 have success. Maybe that's the answer to your question, maybe it's not....

Like, I'm not crazy. There's plenty of "2018 is the year" "Can't wait to fly to Japan to have my hair inoculated next year" "Tsuji will give me God tier...." Lots of triumphalist talk. And yeah hype train and so on but then posters who seem to have more actual concrete knowledge seem to hype as well. So it's challenging to parse through it as a layman.

No one on this message board has concrete knowledge about anything. Some may be more well informed than others but at the end of the day it's all their opinion. They do not have access to anything more than you or me. You never see members like @InBeforeTheCure or even @Swoop , who have more scientific understanding state that any of these treatments are going to work with 100% certainty.

Personally I think I will take a break from posting - probably until the congress. The idea behind this thread was simply to pin things down a little more. But I understand that may not be possible.

A hair conference or official press release are the only places where you're going to get somewhat accurate news and even then nothing will compare to real world results if/when these treatments come to market.

 

[vernon]

Someone need to pin this and remind him later, I've been lurking hair loss forums over a decade and we always have this kind of dudes that are pretty sure about efficacy and market release

People need to read the threads that were necro bumped recently. People have always been sure about release, efficacy and progress with nothing to back it up. And the excuse is always "this time is different!"

yeah its annoying (even though I completely understand people are trying to construct some basis for optimism in lack of actual good news)

I get my hopes up based on someones posts, and then realise he barely knows more than I do

being glued to these hairloss news forums is so unhealthy, I ll have to make myself stop doing it or I ll go crazy. funny thing is, when an actual product comes to the market you ll find out about it in 3 hours even if you live on a deserted island

 

[Christian Miller]

No one outside of these forums gives a sh*t. I don't know if you've noticed, but the majority of clinical data on developing drugs and stuff never meets the eyes of the public until after it's out and even then...

The fact that people think there is some obligation for these companies to shout all their results from the rooftops is hilarious.

What matters is that the necessary government agencies deem it safe and efficacious based on the data.

Bullshit!
They ain't releasing any data 'cause the data they have ain't what they would wish for, loser.
FDA does approve any drug and treatment that shows STATISTICALLY significant efficacy. They don't give a single f#ck for clinically significant efficacy, you, ignorant loser.
Which means what?
RAIN could be approved, even if it grows 20 follicles/cm².
Stop spreading ignorant bullshit all around, b**ch.

From the guy who claims to have like, 50k saved so he can pay for something that isn't even in phase I.

Do you see what you did wrong?

What is this, loser?
Sheer jealousy?
Yes, I do have 150,000€ in my bank account, thanks to my grandma's will.
And, yes, I could afford a 50,000€ treatment.
Which means, if available, I would get Organ Germ Technology treatment in a blink.
Even if I hadn't inherited that money, I would still be saving in order to get it asap.

What's your point?

The only thing I see is you can't save much and in order not to feel sorry about your miserable life, you are dissing on the most effective of all potential treatments: Organ Germ Technology.

Mind you, loser, I have NEVER even implied that Tsuji's deed is gonna succeed for sure.
I wish it does 'cause I would restore all of my hair and stop giving a second f#ck about it.

b**ch, please.

I would rather be a b**ch than be a pathetic loser.
Bye Felisha!

 

[kuba197]

CB 03-01

 

[d3nt3dsh0v3l]

@That Guy

Bro as smart as you are, I'm surprised you also are now fighting in the trench warfare.

Let me elucidate the reality of the situation, which is painfully obvious to me.

You have been wasting all of your time trying to provide techically correct answers and logic your way into ending these "debates" you have been having with others over the past few days. But realize this. These are not debates. These are arguments with vested egos.

Credit where credit is due - your logic and knowledge are sound.

But isn't it more than evident that people are becoming very irritated by your tone?

Christian Miller began attacking you by saying that you are not as smart as you think you are.

Hanginginthewire mentioned that he didn't like your condescending tone.

Didn't I mention just a few days ago that I was getting irritated as well with your seemingly patronizing response to a question I was asking Hellouser? (To recap, you gave me a transcript of the video that *I* posted when asking the question, told me that the conclusion was the exact opposite of what I was asking about, didn't give me a satisfying answer or help me understand were you were coming from, and were trying to curtly answer the question that I was asking hellouser, essentially trivializing my query - if you cannot see how that comes across as a slap in the face, I will be really disappointed because your acumen is excellent otherwise).

Mark the difference between teaching others and berating them. If you know something that they do not, then help them learn, rather than using that opportunity to showcase your knowledge and eloquence, and in so doing, making the other person feel inferior or stupid by comparison. I may not know as much about hairloss stuff as you do, as I have not spent as long on it. But in real life, I am an engineering PhD student at a top 10 university. I mention this not to brag, but to show that you don't know who I am, and you certainly have no jurisdiction in effectively judging mine or anyone else's intellect on this forum. I too take pride in my knowledge outside of this place, just as I am sure many other users on here do. And it is therefore NOT enjoyable to be on the receiving end of your terse replies.

If you don't acknowledge the way you are addressing others, I'm afraid that you will have more than your fair share of naysayers, as the arguments' passion is derived both from technical discussions and antagonism.

If you really want to take pride in your knowledge and technical prowess, then create a healthier audience and foster discussion by showing some compassion at this time of stress and help your fellow forum members learn, not approaching them as misguided students, but as your adult peers.

P.S. I'm not sure that your avatar is helping this situation either.

 

[Christian Miller]

@That Guy

Bro as smart as you are, I'm surprised you also are now fighting in the trench warfare.

Let me elucidate the reality of the situation, which is painfully obvious to me.

You have been wasting all of your time trying to provide techically correct answers and logic your way into ending these "debates" you have been having with others over the past few days. But realize this. These are not debates. These are arguments with vested egos.

Credit where credit is due - your logic and knowledge are sound.

But isn't it more than evident that people are becoming very irritated by your tone?

Christian Miller began attacking you by saying that you are not as smart as you think you are.

Hanginginthewire mentioned that he didn't like your condescending tone.

Didn't I mention just a few days ago that I was getting irritated as well with your seemingly patronizing response to a question I was asking Hellouser? (To recap, you gave me a transcript of the video that *I* posted when asking the question, told me that the conclusion was the exact opposite of what I was asking about, didn't give me a satisfying answer or help me understand were you were coming from, and were trying to curtly answer the question that I was asking hellouser, essentially trivializing my query - if you cannot see how that comes across as a slap in the face, I will be really disappointed because your acumen is excellent otherwise).

Mark the difference between teaching others and berating them. If you know something that they do not, then help them learn, rather than using that opportunity to showcase your knowledge and eloquence, and in so doing, making the other person feel inferior or stupid by comparison. I may not know as much about hairloss stuff as you do, as I have not spent as long on it. But in real life, I am an engineering PhD student at a top 10 university. I mention this not to brag, but to show that you don't know who I am, and you certainly have no jurisdiction in effectively judging mine or anyone else's intellect on this forum. I too take pride in my knowledge outside of this place, just as I am sure many other users on here do. And it is therefore NOT enjoyable to be on the receiving end of your terse replies.

If you don't acknowledge the way you are addressing others, I'm afraid that you will have more than your fair share of naysayers, as the arguments' passion is derived both from technical discussions and antagonism.

If you really want to take pride in your knowledge and technical prowess, then create a healthier audience and foster discussion by showing some compassion at this time of stress and help your fellow forum members learn, not approaching them as misguided students, but as your adult peers.

P.S. I'm not sure that your avatar is helping this situation either.

It's all in vain, dude.

 

[d3nt3dsh0v3l]

It's all in vain, dude.

I'm sorry but it's still unbelievable to me that you disliked that post.

>It's all in vain

That was like...what I wrote about...my post agrees with that sentiment...

I mean at this point you know what, I'll just make peace with the fact that regardless of if I just make a joke with you, or post something that agrees with you, disagrees with you, or even doesn't involve you...you're going to just slap a dislike on there if you get the chance.

You are the master of dislikes.

 

[Christian Miller]

I'm sorry but it's still unbelievable to me that you disliked that post.

>It's all in vain

That was like...what I wrote about...my post agrees with that sentiment...

I mean at this point you know what, I'll just make peace with the fact that regardless of if I just make a joke with you, or post something that agrees with you, disagrees with you, or even doesn't involve you...you're going to just slap a dislike on there if you get the chance.

You are the master of dislikes.

Haha!

 

[dermrafok]

I think we are all in the same situation: Improve the field of hair restoration and get / offer better treatments for the forgotten male pattern baldness.

 

[cocona]

Whot ?! He got banned? Who delivers the kerastem updates now? XD

I'll give you Kerastem updates.

<UPDATE> Kerastem still in phase 2 U.S. trials.
Estimated Study Completion Date:October 31, 2017
Estimated Primary Completion Date:October 31, 2017 (Final data collection date for primary outcome measure) </UPDATE>

You are now updated.

 

[MrV88]

I'll give you Kerastem updates.

<UPDATE> Kerastem still in phase 2 U.S. trials.
Estimated Study Completion Date:October 31, 2017
Estimated Primary Completion Date:October 31, 2017 (Final data collection date for primary outcome measure) </UPDATE>

You are now updated.

Too short....you have to write at least 500-600 characters or it won't be the same

 

[cocona]

...and edit the post at least 10x, over a span of 2 days.
after that, repeat the same message with slightly changed wording to other users.
and if they dare to not believe in kerastem, dislike their posts whenever you can.

If Mr. Temples is right about his causes of Androgenetic Alopecia then I would conclude it's more of a you don't have Androgenetic Alopecia sort of hair loss solution. It doesn't fix the under-expression of PGE2 and over-expression of PGD2. You could have 100% DHT inhibition and if your skin has already mutated to over-express PGD2 than it you still wont ever get robust regrowth from late stage Androgenetic Alopecia(NW5+). This is likely why they target female hair loss. For me its a partial solution but the solution I want is how to mutate bald patches back to synthesize more PGE2 and less PGD2, thus preventing the repeated early induction of catagen.(Its actually more complicated than this)

That being said if you have hair loss due to some of the other factors that can cause hair loss then it just might be awesome for you. Think of it as a targets a bunch of secondary factors in hair loss solution.(Much like wounding with LiCL)

(I do not think Kerastem is a scam.)

 

[That Guy]

@That Guy

Bro as smart as you are, I'm surprised you also are now fighting in the trench warfare.

Let me elucidate the reality of the situation, which is painfully obvious to me.

You have been wasting all of your time trying to provide techically correct answers and logic your way into ending these "debates" you have been having with others over the past few days. But realize this. These are not debates. These are arguments with vested egos.

Credit where credit is due - your logic and knowledge are sound.

But isn't it more than evident that people are becoming very irritated by your tone?

Christian Miller began attacking you by saying that you are not as smart as you think you are.

Hanginginthewire mentioned that he didn't like your condescending tone.

Didn't I mention just a few days ago that I was getting irritated as well with your seemingly patronizing response to a question I was asking Hellouser? (To recap, you gave me a transcript of the video that *I* posted when asking the question, told me that the conclusion was the exact opposite of what I was asking about, didn't give me a satisfying answer or help me understand were you were coming from, and were trying to curtly answer the question that I was asking hellouser, essentially trivializing my query - if you cannot see how that comes across as a slap in the face, I will be really disappointed because your acumen is excellent otherwise).

Mark the difference between teaching others and berating them. If you know something that they do not, then help them learn, rather than using that opportunity to showcase your knowledge and eloquence, and in so doing, making the other person feel inferior or stupid by comparison. I may not know as much about hairloss stuff as you do, as I have not spent as long on it. But in real life, I am an engineering PhD student at a top 10 university. I mention this not to brag, but to show that you don't know who I am, and you certainly have no jurisdiction in effectively judging mine or anyone else's intellect on this forum. I too take pride in my knowledge outside of this place, just as I am sure many other users on here do. And it is therefore NOT enjoyable to be on the receiving end of your terse replies.

If you don't acknowledge the way you are addressing others, I'm afraid that you will have more than your fair share of naysayers, as the arguments' passion is derived both from technical discussions and antagonism.

If you really want to take pride in your knowledge and technical prowess, then create a healthier audience and foster discussion by showing some compassion at this time of stress and help your fellow forum members learn, not approaching them as misguided students, but as your adult peers.

P.S. I'm not sure that your avatar is helping this situation either.

There will be no apology for anyone who is expecting it.

You yourself said that "your logic is sound", and I don't see how my reasoning isn't a fairly agreeable assessment of the current situation.

The naysayers in this case, as you should notice, have no refutation.

Nothing other than "I think" or "I doubt" etc. with nothing to back it up, or just "durr loser" insults like Christian Miller.

A lot of people here and now treating these different techs like a god damn sports team and it's steering the forum away from any discussion that goes anywhere meaningful.

It is absolutely retarded that people deny that something like Follica will work for all the previously mentioned reasons, and it's already known to work in humans, but are hyped as sh*t, actually planning and saving money for, a therapy that is not yet a go for humans and simple common sense when you consider the logistics of what they're planning tell you it is not going to be a practical option for many.

So to all the dickbags: You can either offer some sort of supported, sensible reasoning as to why you think I'm wrong, offer an alternative explanation that maybe haven't considered, or shut the f*** up.

 

[d3nt3dsh0v3l]

There will be no apology for anyone who is expecting it.

No man, it wasn't about whether or not you are sorry.

You yourself said that "your logic is sound", and I don't see how my reasoning isn't a fairly agreeable assessment of the current situation.

Man, I wrote a lot trying to show that the issue isn't the logic, it's the means of communication. It's like appreciating the difference between denotation and connotation. Me saying your logic is sound wasn't me refuting the post that I wrote. It was showing that the logic is not the determining factor for peoples' response to you. It's the way you communicate to them. I know this is a particularly heated time, and it is not a personal criticism of you when I point out out that your responses are adding to the inflammation. That's just objective. I'm sure you wouldn't prefer it that way in ordinary circumstances.

Here is an analogy then to better express what I was trying to say.

It is a well known meme that people usually take a negative stance toward vegans. Logically, this does not make sense. The argument to be vegan for ethical reasons is something that most humans should be able to resonate with. We have friends and family and loved ones. We are able to show compassion and empathy to one another. We love our pet animals tenderly. Religious or not, we pride ourselves on our consciousness and intelligence, and above all, in a primal sense, we cherish life and living and feel the weight and loss of death.

Why then would the idea of veganism be met with so much resistance, apart from the mere inconvenience of changing the diet? Even if people cannot eliminate meat entirely, why do people not take up veganism as a cause to reduce the amount of meat they consume and increase vegetable intake, knowing full well that excessive meat consumption may exacerbate conditions such as heart disease and obesity, which are a growing concern in developed nations, and knowing that the average person does not consume enough vegetables in their diet to begin with? It seems like two birds with one stone to take a page from the vegan book.

It's because many vocal vegans are obnoxious. It's the "better-than-thou" attitude they take on when expressing pride in their lifestyle choice. It's the arrogance of projecting that, you as a minority, have transcended your peers by rebuking their values through reasoning and that that somehow enables you to gaze upon them with scorn. Those idiots. Those monsters, have they no empathy or moral reasoning? The truth is that they mostly do; most have the hardware necessary to understand and express both of those things.

That type of approach is met with intense contempt and fiery rebuttals that don't make sense in regard to the argument. People instead tout how proud they are of being meat eaters. Scorn is met with mockery. And no change is made as both sides dwindle into the trenches in an endless argument with one side guarding their logic and the other protecting their pride.

If you want to keep arguing, whatever. From where I am standing - and I am sure you must sense this too - this is all a total waste of time. This is why the logic that you work to polish is not ending the discussion. This is why it seems like people have sports team like allegiances, instead of listening to your input.

Like it or not, we are the peers. If one is above average in any arena, one should not use that as a weapon with which to attack those who do not practice in that arena. I think it is apparent that a fit, athletic individual belittling the physique of an average person subtly or otherwise is unpleasant. The same is true regardless of whatever field you excel in. Be a little gentle with those around you. That's all they are really asking for. Otherwise, make peace with the fact that you will foster resentment.

 

[That Guy]

If you want to keep arguing, whatever. From where I am standing - and I am sure you must sense this too - this is all a total waste of time. This is why the logic that you work to polish is not ending the discussion. This is why it seems like people have sports team like allegiances, instead of listening to your input.

Eh, I'm more and more done with this place by the day tbh.

I feel this contributes to my general "f*** it" stance.