Very Impressive Dermarolling And Minxodil Results - From Tressless

kiwi666

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I have not claimed that there are not good responders here. I believe there are, and I don't think they are lying. However, I am talking about responder/non-responder ratio. For every alleged responder we see here, there is a non-responder popping up and expressing his disappointment. Proportions and ratios are a very important thing to consider. My criticism is mostly toward the studies: they are showing us a treatment with seemingly a 100% chance of response (which in the first place was the reason of the hype) , and clearly, this has not been reproduced here.

Some dudes might come in here and say "well, if it works for SOME people, then it deserves to be hyped". My reply to that argument is NO, it shouldn't be hyped. Let's say a treatment might have a response rate of 10%, and some dudes start making a big deal about it as if it is going to work for sure. What is the outcome? The outcome is that 9 out of 10 dudes will be very disappointed, frustrated and depressed because some other dudes gave them high hopes... Only to get failure.

With this, I am not saying that needling responders are a minority (actually, we still don't have clear numbers for this trial), and also I am not saying that we SHOULD NOT try needling just because response rates are not 100%. On the contrary, I think that we all should try it, but every newcomer MUST ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a considerable chance of not getting any results at all. That is the healthiest way of jumping into a new treatment.

It's the same thing that @MeDK said, let's not make sell some potential outliers as a general statistical trend. It's irresponsible.

That said, I encourage everyone here to tell any balding dude to try needling just in case they end up being a lucky responder, but I'd tell them to expect the worst case scenario as the most probable outcome. Just in case.

Yes. I think we ALL agree. My point is if it works for SOME people... try it out!!! Heck just 25 minutes ago an Established member (Jamesdunn) posted what look to be positive results.

As I said earlier, one thing is for sure, if you don't try, or follow any of the studies to the best of your ability, it definitely won't work.
 

kiwi666

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To @kiwi666 and all of the other nice dudes who evaluated my progress, thank you. I should confess that not a single person picked the corect "before pic", which means that either 6 months of needling did NOTHING for me, or if it did something, it is cosmetically unnoticeable, and therefore equal to nothing. Personally, I think I didn't improve at all.

I shall let you know that I will keep needling nevertheless. At least for an additional year just in case there's the small chance of being a late responder (if that's a thing).
However, as I announced earlier, I am going to perform an additional experiment that I'll be sharing with you guys. Just as @longtimelurker did, I am going to needle Everyday. I just ordered 1mm rollers to do so. I will reserve my dermapen for the usual heavy sessions at 2mm,and will do "light" and short sessions with a 1mm roller.
I will do the everyday needling ONLY on one of my temples, just so there can be a fair comparison of needling everyday Vs needing once a week. I really hope this experiment will be insightful for me and for all of you people.

Cheers bro. Fingers crossed for your ongoing experiment. You and I are of the unlucky ones.

As we have discussed before, I am going to try this too because, I've got nothing to loose. And perhaps it's how and why things worked for @chen. Time will tell.
 

Jamesdunn

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Congrats man!

But beware, maybe those new hairs, in that photo, are there because you're feeling less stressed. Perhaps you can save time and money just meditating for long peoples instead?

No I'm kidding. Awesome bro. Where did you buy the sandalore?
I have taken up zumba and gone to live in the wild. Pellwall.com
 

overpourgoodfortune

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I get busy with work for awhile and come back to what feels like frenchy spamming the thread again. Yeesh.

Either way - good to see some legit progress posted by a few members. I haven't needled much in the last month and a bit sadly, was sick and had to travel for work. Excited to get back into it.
 

tressful11

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From what I have seen and read, and from some studies that were posted, microneedling on it's own isn't enough to combat DHT.

However, it has shown in many people an increase in the effectiveness of other treatments, especially minoxidil, when used in conjunction.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3746236/

Take that for what you will.

Also here's some pics from me.
Balder pic is at month 3 of the Big 3, started weekly 1.5mm dermaroll sessions right after this pic.
Recent pic is at month 11. Sorry for lighting differences.

View attachment 118674 View attachment 118673

11 months. This is another clear example of how good long term results can be. Some folks here cry foul when they don't see results after 4 dermaroller sessions, eventually discouraging newcomers from trying this regimen.
Most people overestimate the results they can get in a month and underestimate the results they can achieve over an entire year.
 

Jamesdunn

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My hair is alot longer in after picture but microneedling has thickened my hair up drastically.
 

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NarWhal7

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Most people overestimate the results they can get in a month and underestimate the results they can achieve over an entire year.

Totally agree w this.

It's so tricky because I'm sure people don't want to waste time if a regimen isn't working for them but maybe they just need to keep going. Taking lots of pics at different angles over time helps
 

Rudi

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This is one of the best posts I have seen, and a very good example of healthy and well argumented criticism (I'm looking at you, @roberta)

This is exactly my take on this whole microneedling thing. At first, I was very exited to try this thing coz the scientific evidence firm the published study was promising. If science is properly done, results MUST be able to be reproduced if the same methodology is followed. Most people here actually followed the same methodologies as the first Indian and Chinese studies, and the outcome was FAR from the same.
Now, some people will argue that "everyone is different" to justify the fact that there are a lot non-responders here, but they fail to realize that this argument is a bad one, because given the results of the study, we SHOULD NOT expect this amount of non-responder. Following the numbers of the studies, we should expect a very small amount of non-responders, because according to those two, every single subject responded to the treatment at least to a degree.

What we should be discussing is WHY are we seeing this kind of non-reproducibility? I can think of some reasons:

1) a degree of dishonesty by the researchers, such as conveniently selecting good responders and ignoring the bad ones to skew their conclusion AFTER conducting the trials, which might make sense if there are competing interests. Rachita Dhurat, for example, allegedly has a dermarolling business. However, I cannot say the same for the Chinese authors of the second study.

2) non-random racial sampling: this has been discussed before. Every single needling study published so far (as far as I know) has been made by Asian researchers. As such, all the subjects are either Indian or Chinese individuals. Where are the damn western studies? Are there some genetic factors exclusive to Asian groups that make them more prone to respond to needling than predominantly European groups? That is something we cannot rule out yet.

3) small deviations from the original methodologies:
We are trying our best to imitate their methodology, however, what we cannot properly reproduce is the way the researchers have measured progress. That is, hair count by square cm and hair thickness. We simply lack the equipment to measure these variables, so we are left with no other options than to rely on the subjective self assessment. The thing is, the studies have also employed self assessments and even so, the outcome between them and this trial has been largely different. In the Dhurat and Chinese studies, the self-assessment reports are mostly positive, with close to zero unsatisfied subjects. There is no question that this is NOT the case here.
However there is an important detail we should take into account, as pointed out by another user the other day. In the Dhurat study, every subject had their head shaved. Here, a lot of us are doing this with our non-shaved hair. Shaving a subject's hair may make it easier to note progress because you can notice new follicles and increasing density in the absence of dense hair obstructing our view.

It should be noted though, that the new micrineedling study (another Chinese one, LOL) published this year produced results that are more in line with what we are seeing here, but I would also dare to say that even then, response rates are somewhat higher in that study than in this trial.

What else do you think that might be happening to explain the discrepancy between the published studies and our reality? I think this is something worth discussing.

Indeed, it is a bit weird that the studies are mostly Asian studies. We only have a small Brazilian study and there are three Follica studies that are not accessible. I could imagine that in Asia there is more acceptance for this kind of treatment. Acupuncture originates from Asia. Thus wounding your skin is probably less seen as a 'voodoo' treatment. In addition, personal looks is perhaps more important in Asia than in Europe thus more focus on hair loss solutions. (Just look at Chinese politicians lol )
The other problem is participant selection. I have no idea how that is done. But I admit that if I were selected for a hairloss study, I would take part hoping it works for me and that I don't get the placebo. I dont know if they actually test if you are on anti-androgens. If not, would you give up antiandrogens that are beneficial for you during the study duration? Some would not-hoping it provides synergies. Consequently you have participants that perhaps are cheating.
You can read at times posts where guys in desperation try to inquire if they can be selected for a particular study. We must not forget that hairloss is a very emotional issue for many balding people.
The ideal participants are people who dont care about their hairloss!!!
If we now assume that the study participants are on anti-androgens then its no suprise that microneedling does not work for many here on HairLossTalk.com. Many here are not using them due to side effects.
I firmly believe we are also not the average hairloss person. For most people eg finasteride works and they move on. But some have extreme agressive hairloss and/or have also bad side effects and they-in their desperation-seeking advice here.
 
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kiwi666

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The same thing happened to my friend at 30. He was even more slick bald than you and he has been this way since 22-24. As soon as he started needling(he was on the big 3 for years) he started sprouting tiny hair that you could see only at a particular angle and to see the density you had to project flash light from a certain angle. He is on his way to NW1 without a doubt.


I've read the entire thing and I've come to the conclusion that I gotta try this for 2 years straight or I'll just never know if it works for me or not. I remember being so jealous even though he's my friend because those tiny hair started sprouting on his head just after one session and yet we even see evidence of people who take much longer to get results. I'm starting to get the results but jealousy taught me that it's different for everybody, and yet f*****g trolls are trying to derail this thread again.

I suspect the trolls are just bitter and upset people suffering from male pattern baldness.

I too wish they would just go away and let us share notes and experiment.

Indeed, it is a bit weird that the studies are mostly Asian studies. We only have a small Brazilian study and there are three Follica studies that are not accessible. I could imagine that in Asia there is more acceptance to this kind of treatment. Acupuncture originates from Asia. Thus wounding your skin is probably less seen as a 'voodoo' treatment. In addition, personal looks is perhaps more important in Asia than in Europe thus more focus on hair loss solutions. (Just look at Chinese politicians lol )
The other problem is participant selection. I have no idea how that is done. But I admit that if I were selected for a hairloss study, I would take part hoping it works for me and that I don't get the placebo. I dont know if they actually test if you are on anti-androgens. If not, would you give up antiandrogens that are beneficial for you during the study duration? Some would not hoping it provides synergies. Consequently you have participants that maybe cheating.
You can read at times posts where guys in desperation try to inquire if they can be selected for a particular study. We must not forget that hairloss is a very emotional issue for many balding people.
The ideal participants are people who dont care about their hairloss!!!
If we now assume that the guys are on anti-androgens then its no suprise that microneedling does not work for many here on HairLossTalk.com. Many here are not using them due to side effects.
I firmly believe we are also not the average hairloss person. For most people eg finasteride works and they move on. But some have extreme agressive hairloss and/or have also bad side effects and they-in their desperation-seeking advice here.

Agreed. These people are our desperate peers. Nobody needs to see post after post from sceptics. It’s fine in my view for sceptics to share their opinions and / or failed / and or short lived experiments BUT please just once. Have your say and go away :p

Then we can all be happy!
 

Pigeon

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I get busy with work for awhile and come back to what feels like frenchy spamming the thread again. Yeesh.

Either way - good to see some legit progress posted by a few members. I haven't needled much in the last month and a bit sadly, was sick and had to travel for work. Excited to get back into it.
Yup, thread got invaded by new accounts who were "skeptical" and negative.

Their goal is clear though, demoralisation.
 

Rudi

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The same thing happened to my friend at 30. He was even more slick bald than you and he has been this way since 22-24. As soon as he started needling(he was on the big 3 for years) he started sprouting tiny hair that you could see only at a particular angle and to see the density you had to project flash light from a certain angle. He is on his way to NW1 without a doubt.


I've read the entire thing and I've come to the conclusion that I gotta try this for 2 years straight or I'll just never know if it works for me or not. I remember being so jealous even though he's my friend because those tiny hair started sprouting on his head just after one session and yet we even see evidence of people who take much longer to get results. I'm starting to get the results but jealousy taught me that it's different for everybody, and yet f*****g trolls are trying to derail this thread again.

I will continue my low intensity microneedling too...until a 'real' cure is released..regardles of other treatments.

Certainly, I dont get scared by cancer claims etc..
 
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tressful11

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this is ridiculous, look at the lighting and your hair cut. you just can't compare these two pics.



i asked you for evidence not some anecdotes "i heard my friend bla bla bla" no one is intersted in that. show as some hard proof and facts



this is a forum so everyone can share their point of view and i will continue to do so. you must have some personal self esteem issues when you can't handle valid critisism.
The problem here isn't that people don't want you to share your opinion, the problem is that you are an absolutely bitter troll. You claim everyone is a scammer. The youtube guy is trying to sell something, numberguy is trying to sell a serum. According to you, everyone except you is a scammer. Get your facts together before you bring them here. None of your claims make sense.
There are a lot of people on this thread who have valid criticism of dermarolling and the believers here take it like a good sport. You on the other hand just propagate bitterness and ill-will.
 

spring15

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My hair is alot longer in after picture but microneedling has thickened my hair up drastically.

Nice pal. How many times a week are you needling & applying minoxidil? Do you apply minoxidil right after needling?
 

samantha3333

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Good to see many people here are not blinded and consumed by hair loss induced bitterness. I remember there’s a woman on Heralopecia. She spent years and years commenting on posts telling people spironolactone and rogaine dont work so now she’s in a hair system. Literally majority of her comments are just that.
 

Necr0sis

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I really want to know what the consensus is on what is the appropriate and optimal amount of wounding, for the derminator 2 in particular.

With the D2 set to fast at 1.5, the slightest amount of pressure can change my wounding from “just like sunburn” like many people claim is correct, and bleeding.

I’m sure mild bleeding is normal due to preexisting skin lesions on the scalp (zits, ingrown hairs, etc) that may be hit while derma rolling. I just hate getting paranoid after my sessions when I see blood and worry I’m causing some damage that may worsen hair loss
 
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