Topical Finasteride which "locks into the scalp to avoid systemic absorption"
- Thread starter bbbeeeppp2
- Start date
There is 5AR present in the scalp so T to DHT conversion does occur there, however as mentioned above 5AR is also present in other parts of the body so the inhibitor would have to go systemic if you wanted to inhibit the other sources.
However this is not the complete story as DHT per-se is not bad for hair, it is the level of DHT. If you look at this article from Journal of Endocrinology(1998) (http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/156/1/59.full.pdf) you can see that non-balding hair dermal papilla cells also have DHT present but at around half the level of balding.
So what is important is the level of DHT in the scalp, however I'm not sure it is possible to lower the level enough without going systemic. Personally I think DHT inhibition is a dead end in terms of future treatments, what we need is something that inhibits the DHT attaching to the androgen receptor in the follicle or breaks down the DHT back to T. DHT is n't the enemy, the enemy is the increased number of androgen receptors.
However this is not the complete story as DHT per-se is not bad for hair, it is the level of DHT. If you look at this article from Journal of Endocrinology(1998) (http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/156/1/59.full.pdf) you can see that non-balding hair dermal papilla cells also have DHT present but at around half the level of balding.
So what is important is the level of DHT in the scalp, however I'm not sure it is possible to lower the level enough without going systemic. Personally I think DHT inhibition is a dead end in terms of future treatments, what we need is something that inhibits the DHT attaching to the androgen receptor in the follicle or breaks down the DHT back to T. DHT is n't the enemy, the enemy is the increased number of androgen receptors.
its looking good... apparently they are using a new silicon based vehicle which will reduce systemic absorption ti 1/18th of oral finasteride at the same dose! man if this stuff comes through in the next 3-4 months id be so fkn grateful...
idk if this info was posted before but it seems like they really got the right formulation this time
idk if this info was posted before but it seems like they really got the right formulation this time
barfacan
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 525
I mostly agree, however i believe the inflammatory cascade that occurs after DHT attaching is the real culprit. Although i do agree that there is still DHT floating around systemically, so what stops it from travelling to the follicles and continuing the balding process if all you're doing is inhibiting T >DHT within the scalp? Besides, if the daily dosage is 1MG applied topically, then 1/18th of that is still > .05 MG (which still is enough to fall under the flat dose response, i.e same side effects). A nice detailed explanation from them as to WHY they think this formula works would be very nice, but i don't think we'll get it.
- Reaction score
- 1,332
A guy used that formulation from H&W. Got the same sides he got on oral finasteride. The funniest thing was this and I quote him;
Apparently H&W didn't even understand the difference between 0.25% and 2.5% in terms of concentration of their formulation :uglylol:.. Much research much..
They are awesome at FUT hair transplants though.
Apparently H&W didn't even understand the difference between 0.25% and 2.5% in terms of concentration of their formulation :uglylol:.. Much research much..
They are awesome at FUT hair transplants though.
- Reaction score
- 1,332
They just don't know what the hell they are talking about mate;
Just like they don't know what the hell they are talking about with their "locking into the scalp to avoid systemic absorption", bunch of utter nonsense.
- Reaction score
- 11,938
No, it's from a European company called polichem that is paying for phase 3 trials.
shookwun
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 6,092
When you apply medication topically it's not guaranteed to penetrate the epidermis of the skin let alone effectively inhibit all surface area of the scalp. With a 25ml dropper at 1m ED how much area can you expect to cover aside from spot reducing the effects of DHT?
I don't see this drug as a alternate substitute to finasteride. Androgens affect the whole scalp, all though I believe certain areas are targeted more heavily for those with the traditional male pattern baldness. This is why oral drugs such as finasteride are most optimal because it's traveled within the blood stream, and targets every follicle that is binded by DHT, and reduces the effects.
The main point is androgens affect the entire scalp, and topically applying medication isn't effective at reducing DHT on all areas of the scalp.
I don't see this drug as a alternate substitute to finasteride. Androgens affect the whole scalp, all though I believe certain areas are targeted more heavily for those with the traditional male pattern baldness. This is why oral drugs such as finasteride are most optimal because it's traveled within the blood stream, and targets every follicle that is binded by DHT, and reduces the effects.
The main point is androgens affect the entire scalp, and topically applying medication isn't effective at reducing DHT on all areas of the scalp.
- Reaction score
- 11,938
Finasteride tablets say that pregnant women are not even supposed to touch the tablets. That's how easily it supposedly gets absorbed. So there's a dissonance between that safety precaution, which implies you can't be with a pregnant woman while on topical finasteride, and the claims of this medicine that there will be no absorption into the bloodstream of the man using it.
Hairlosscureby2020.com made a post about it,they insist in the absence of side effects...my doubt right now is, the people who used this topical and posted their experiences on Italian forums were using the same product h&w are going to sell?
- - - Updated - - -
Also, they claim that a Dutasteride formulation will be made next.
- - - Updated - - -
Also, they claim that a Dutasteride formulation will be made next.
- Reaction score
- 4
Hi felipe do you have a source of this information? they claim no sides compared with oral use?
- Reaction score
- 1,332
It's damn obvious why they removed the blog post. Saying that it doesn't go systemic is utterly misleading and not true and the FDA would rape them apart if they would start claiming such a thing.
No offense again, they are great hair surgeons but H&W don't have any clue of any scientific matters.
I mean if you think that 2.5% = 2.5mg/ml , then you really don't know what you are talking about.
No offense again, they are great hair surgeons but H&W don't have any clue of any scientific matters.
I mean if you think that 2.5% = 2.5mg/ml , then you really don't know what you are talking about.
distracted
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 141
This topical finasteride seems like a piece of crap. Certainly doesn't belong in cutting edge unless its side effect free, which it is clearly not. On to the next...
- Reaction score
- 1,332
Science performed at it's worst;
https://3pfizs243h34c09mn6s0ul69-wp...evaluation-finasteride-solution-DR-HASSON.pdf
Actually taking an in vitro model and then making an estimation of plasma levels of some sub-par calculation. Man...
Legit science, much legit science. Then why is there so much variability in systemic accumulation in many subjects in vivo? In other words, some people through topical application of some compounds do get systemic accumulation while others not at all or have it way reduced (I mean other compounds than finasteride here, finasteride will go systemic anyway in every subject through topical application.)
What about actually taking real human subjects, letting them apply your solution on their scalp and taking baseline and further blood tests at some time later?
Truthfully I think at least Polichem knows how to perform studies, while these clowns, do have a thing or two to learn.
Then again Polichem their problem is that they look at 0.1ml and 0.2ml of their solution and base their reduced systemic levels of that, which is totally obvious. Can't even cover your scalp with 0.1ml or 0.2ml.
One could apply 0.1ml of 15% minoxidil and one could apply 1ml of 15% minoxidil, pretty sure that the latter will show (way) more systemic accumulation in the same subject.
https://3pfizs243h34c09mn6s0ul69-wp...evaluation-finasteride-solution-DR-HASSON.pdf
Actually taking an in vitro model and then making an estimation of plasma levels of some sub-par calculation. Man...
Legit science, much legit science. Then why is there so much variability in systemic accumulation in many subjects in vivo? In other words, some people through topical application of some compounds do get systemic accumulation while others not at all or have it way reduced (I mean other compounds than finasteride here, finasteride will go systemic anyway in every subject through topical application.)
What about actually taking real human subjects, letting them apply your solution on their scalp and taking baseline and further blood tests at some time later?
Truthfully I think at least Polichem knows how to perform studies, while these clowns, do have a thing or two to learn.
Then again Polichem their problem is that they look at 0.1ml and 0.2ml of their solution and base their reduced systemic levels of that, which is totally obvious. Can't even cover your scalp with 0.1ml or 0.2ml.
One could apply 0.1ml of 15% minoxidil and one could apply 1ml of 15% minoxidil, pretty sure that the latter will show (way) more systemic accumulation in the same subject.
OK. I've literally just had the the H&W topical delivered. Pondering whether to use it given the sides which have been reported. Might just take half the doseage and see if there are any sides. I was told nobody has experienced sides. Considering whether just to wait it out for Polichem to come out with theirs, given the structure approach to trial they are undertaking.
inmyhead
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 1,018
How did your get your prescription for it? My derms are not going to fill some shady paper because they dont understand english ahahaha
I just got it from my doctor. They are pretty good with the emails they've sent me. Seem to have no problem with English. Are you giving it a bash?