This Whole Thing Reminds Me Of Racism And Discrimination

[Afro_Vacancy]

If the right wing populists in Europe emerge as victors, it won't nearly be for the same reason as Trump. While Europe has much bigger immigrant-problems than USA, it would indeed be an easy win for them if they voted ''right'' for the same reasons. But they don't, and they won't. In Europe the problems emerge from a more practical, everyday-sensing reality. It's not a protest vote. It's a vote against the very people they are sorounded by and live with. Against their unability to blend in.

Cheers

While it may very well be the end result, I don't believe Germany's subjugation of the rest of Europe is intentional. Rather it's a product of the system they (we) live in. Capitalism. Place one apple between two rivals and see if they end up splitting it, if hyngry. Hardly. Congratulations, we've done it. Survival of the smartest. Carl Marx had it all figured out?

Cheers

This article I coincidentally read today reads like your posts, it has a similar analysis of Germany:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-afd-isnt-germanys-alt-right/

The AfD Isn’t ‘Germany’s Alt-Right’
The country is not on the verge of lurching toward a neo-fascist alternative to its current PC regime.
By PAUL GOTTFRIED • April 17, 2017

 

[Guzam]

@Guzam is a poster who is likely to have an informed opinion on Germany's increasing global geopolitical strength, and their subjugation of the rest of Europe.

Hey man. Germany has always been the economic and political powerhouse of continental Europe. It's a common saying that 'Germany is too great for Europe, too insignificant for the rest of the world'. Germany shares with both Britain and France a deep feeling of grandeur, which practically is an nation-wide Alpha attitude which has roots in the Judeo-Christian culture and old Nationalism. One thing that always kept Germany down compared to U.K. and France was their inability to build an empire abroad, for various causes. As a consequence, their need of expansion has always been focused on Europe itself, and not on the rest of the world like France and U.K. Interestingly, they have been trying to guide and dominate Europe since their unification under Bismarck. Germany changed shape, name and ways throughout history many times, but always sought expansion and influence in Europe because Germany is too small for the greatness of the Germans. From a warrior nation, which sought expansion through war, they became an economic power, seeking expansion through markets since the Wirtschaftswunder, the economic miracle of post WW2. The EU is a German proxy to unite Europe under one market, one central bank, one currency, and one fürher (which means 'he who guides') which is the German economy. If the EU will become one nation, Germany will finally find what it was seeking: the critical mass to become a Superpower, greater than the USA. As of now, the EU GDP is the biggest in the world.

Anyway, they are f*****g up one thing which is the management of immigrants. This is an alien issue which could actually change history and plunge Europe in an indefinitely long damaged state in a century or less. Importing large quantities of antagonistic cultures (Islamic and African ones) can cause a demographic shift which last time happened with the Dorian invasion and the collapse of the Bronze Age civilization. This causes civil war in the long run. German politicians, and politicians in general, either downplay or ignore the long term effect of importing enclaves of antagonistic cultures.

 

[yetti]

I wasn't aware that ~24% of Jews and ~30% of Hispanics had supported Trump.

Are you surprised by either of those numbers? ... for me, the Jewish vote is unsurprising, its heavily in favor of the Democratic candidate as usual. 24% is a very low percentage. 30% Hispanic vote did surprise people, it's very low of course but many expected it to be even lower.

 

[Exodus2011]

ok so about the knowing foreigners part yetti and david, i was going to say its important to remember how little someone can represent their nations overall culture, and how other group memberships matter much more

for example i've talked to people online in like at least 10 countries but they are far from representing each nation. the kinds of people i talk to are like me, outcast-ish and mentally ill. that "group membership" defines them much more than their birth nation. the same goes for me. i grew up in rural southern america. yes people here are quite often uneducated, ignorant, conservative, and racist but i'm the complete opposite.

i havent talked to anyone foreign in real life for a very long time because of my location. i used to live in raleigh which had a lot of immigrants but they usually stuck with their own kind so i never got to know them.

i knew some foreign exchange students but again think about it, those would be preselected as the ambitious and adventurous types. they were the ones who decided to study abroad.

another aspect of globalization you guys haven't mentioned is the newest generation seems to be much more homogenous. the internet makes us all so much more connected. we are all online, using social media and consuming western media. ISIS on twitter and facebook, the number of nations represented just going on a forum like here, etc.

 

[hairblues]

ok so about the knowing foreigners part yetti and david, i was going to say its important to remember how little someone can represent their nations overall culture, and how other group memberships matter much more

for example i've talked to people online in like at least 10 countries but they are far from representing each nation. the kinds of people i talk to are like me, outcast-ish and mentally ill. that "group membership" defines them much more than their birth nation. the same goes for me. i grew up in rural southern america. yes people here are quite often uneducated, ignorant, conservative, and racist but i'm the complete opposite.

i havent talked to anyone foreign in real life for a very long time because of my location. i used to live in raleigh which had a lot of immigrants but they usually stuck with their own kind so i never got to know them.

i knew some foreign exchange students but again think about it, those would be preselected as the ambitious and adventurous types. they were the ones who decided to study abroad.

another aspect of globalization you guys haven't mentioned is the newest generation seems to be much more homogenous. the internet makes us all so much more connected. we are all online, using social media and consuming western media. ISIS on twitter and facebook, the number of nations represented just going on a forum like here, etc.

sounds like you agree with @yetti
That it's not 'ignorant Americans'
It's more about location and exposure within various countries.
You make a great point about internet..that was my opinion even monitoring someones viewing choices..You in a rural area have so much more viewing options in your home then you would have had 20 years ago via a local movie theater. Same with music.

 

[RegenWaiting]

This is s good point

In USA, for most part, refugees are integrated very well.
I remember in Miami in the early 80s (i lived there partially growing up over many years) we were dealing with Cuban immigrants and Haitan later years...and their were some bumps in road not going to lie but within a few years even just in Miami community they integrated really well.

Now with refugees that came here i think we USA handle them from Mid East so much better than Europe...

So when on this forum for example ALL the guys in Europe who were dealing wth the negatives of their own countries taking in refugees and its negative effect on country--they were so supportive of Trump and his pro American message...MEanwhile this is all 'emotion' because factually USA taking those refugees would have been better then them going to Europe.
We are ruthless with following and monitoring our refugees in comparison to Europe..Europe is NOT set up for it.
And we intergrate mid east Refugees so much better than in Europe.
So Now you have Trump winning so what happens? those refugees that would have come here probably won't and they will wind up MORE so in Europe. So why the European guys were so Pro Trump..I don't understand.
And this Pro Russian Anti Nato stuff I really don't understand from European interests.
I understand what they 'think' but it's not realistic to actuality.
Maybe they are too young and don't remember USSR agenda..and no one is more the 'sprit' of old USSR than Putin.

About the Russia versus USA; that really is one hell of a debate and rivarly that goes way back to, i.m.o., even before the WW2(time-out). And since the rivarly is mostly idealistic, one would have so many arguments back and forth, oh my...(!) Ideally, and maybe, the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. To me at least, it's clear none of those is a BigBadWolve and the other an angel. There is flaws to both systems (ideas), and many others (3rd parties) have been wronged by their prospects and infleunce. In the end howewer, I guess, the winner will be the one who writes history - if there will be anybody to write that is.

 

[hairblues]

About the Russia versus USA; that really is one hell of a debate and rivarly that goes way back to, i.m.o., even before the WW2(time-out). And since the rivarly is mostly idealistic, one would have so many arguments back and forth, oh my...(!) Ideally, and maybe, the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. To me at least, it's clear none of those is a BigBadWolve and the other an angel. There is flaws to both systems (ideas), and many others (3rd parties) have been wronged by their prospects and infleunce. In the end howewer, I guess, the winner will be the one who writes history - if there will be anybody to write that is.

I know and work with many Russians who left when it was still USSR...They don't speak fondly of it. And they don't speak fondly of Putin. So it's not media I get this from I get it from the actual people who lived it, left it and still have family there. Some of these people i know going back to the 90s. Im not saying they are big bad wolf but their have been a lot of pro putin postings anti HRC postings on this forum in particular--and i think some people are more than naive about Putins long term objective and were overly paranoid about HRC.

 

[yetti]

I know and work with many Russians who left when it was still USSR...They don't speak fondly of it. And they don't speak fondly of Putin. So it's not media I get this from I get it from the actual people who lived it, left it and still have family there. Some of these people i know going back to the 90s. Im not saying they are big bad wolf but their have been a lot of pro putin postings anti HRC postings on this forum in particular--and i think some people are more than naive about Putins long term objective and were overly paranoid about HRC.

Agree. I lived and worked in both a former satellite state of the soviet union soon after it collapsed, and also a former republic of the soviet union, for several years. poor, with cars that didnt work and cardboard in their bread, they despised the soviet union and were glad that it had disappeared. now, a generation later, with state controlled media and nostalgia, i think some attitudes have changed in the former republics, though i still dont think you'd find many fans in e. europe. ... there was always a sentimental feeling about aspects of it in the former republics but for sure it wasnt seen as a system that worked.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Agree. I lived and worked in both a former satellite state of the soviet union soon after it collapsed, and also a former republic of the soviet union, for several years. poor, with cars that didnt work and cardboard in their bread, they despised the soviet union and were glad that it had disappeared. now, a generation later, with state controlled media and nostalgia, i think some attitudes have changed in the former republics, though i still dont think you'd find many fans in e. europe. ... there was always a sentimental feeling about aspects of it in the former republics but for sure it wasnt seen as a system that worked.

It's precisely because they suffered in the 1990s that Putin's popularity is high.

The USSR opened up. Gorbachev wanted the USSR to be like the other western countries, to be able to communicate and trade with the USA the way Switzerland and Sweden. The US leadership's response was to interfere in the Russian elections and help install the incompetent Boris Yeltsin, and later on to pry as many former sovet satellites as possible into NATO and the EU, and to break up the former Yugoslavia into irrelevant micro-states. Russia was basically dying in the 1990s, and it's had a bit of a resurgence under Putin.

One of the guys in my political discussion group is very close to Michael McFaul, who was recently ambassador to Russia and is widely credited with engineering many of the "colour revolutions" that took place in the 1990s and 2000s. All of this information is corroborated.

As it is there is no long-term solution. Russia wants to survive as a regional power and maintain good living standards, education and technology, for its citizens. The United States wants to break up Russia, absorb its natural resource wealth, and discard its last competitor in the global market for weapons sales. This is a zero sum game so there is likely no globally satisfactory solution.

In the 1970s, a temporary peace was achieved, also called detente, because US leadership decided to focus its foreign policy on increasing control of the third world, rather than on confronting Russia. It worked very well, in part because Soviet leadership during that time was quite weak.

 

[yetti]

It's precisely because they suffered in the 1990s that Putin's popularity is high.

The USSR opened up. Gorbachev wanted the USSR to be like the other western countries, to be able to communicate and trade with the USA the way Switzerland and Sweden. The US leadership's response was to interfere in the Russian elections and help install the incompetent Boris Yeltsin, and later on to pry as many former sovet satellites as possible into NATO and the EU, and to break up the former Yugoslavia into irrelevant micro-states. Russia was basically dying in the 1990s, and it's had a bit of a resurgence under Putin.

One of the guys in my political discussion group is very close to Michael McFaul, who was recently ambassador to Russia and is widely credited with engineering many of the "colour revolutions" that took place in the 1990s and 2000s. All of this information is corroborated.

As it is there is no long-term solution. Russia wants to survive as a regional power and maintain good living standards, education and technology, for its citizens. The United States wants to break up Russia, absorb its natural resource wealth, and discard its last competitor in the global market for weapons sales. This is a zero sum game so there is likely no globally satisfactory solution.

In the 1970s, a temporary peace was achieved, also called detente, because US leadership decided to focus its foreign policy on increasing control of the third world, rather than on confronting Russia. It worked very well, in part because Soviet leadership during that time was quite weak.

You blame the US too much and do not have a poor word for communism. That's cool but you should know that it was not only in the 90s that the Soviet Union and its republics were poor. When I was there, for example, for half the absolutely freezing winter there was no hot water. People would wake up two hours early to boil water on the stove to take a bath in. Finally holes were dug all over the city to do something underground that would lead to hot water getting into homes. But the wide, deep holes were never filled in and so they were a constant hazard for falling into and suffering grave injury. This was the Soviet Union, in which everything went wrong because no one had an incentive to make it work right, and I could give you a million real-life examples of what it was like to live there and how people actually felt about it... which was very poorly.

 

[hairblues]

You blame the US too much and do not have a poor word for communism. That's cool but you should know that it was not only in the 90s that the Soviet Union and its republics were poor. When I was there, for example, for half the absolutely freezing winter there was no hot water. People would wake up two hours early to boil water on the stove to take a bath in. Finally holes were dug all over the city to do something underground that would lead to hot water getting into homes. But the wide, deep holes were never filled in and so they were a constant hazard for falling into and suffering grave injury. This was the Soviet Union, in which everything went wrong because no one had an incentive to make it work right, and I could give you a million real-life examples of what it was like to live there and how people actually felt about it... which was very poorly.

Yeah I don't know anyone from Russia from that time period in person, actual live walking talking people I have had conversations with face to face over the years--not from 'online political forums'--who would agree with what he posted.
My friends Father was in the KGB, she still owns an apartment in Moscow, her Mother is a journalist in Israel... she wept like a child at times about Putins rise when she goes back over the years and sees the changes. It makes her sick.
I have visited her building over the years ALL Russian and all pro America even mostly historically Republican..Loved Regan Loved Bush (not a fan myself) its just buildings and buildings of Russians. They call it Little Odessa.
Go take a walking tour and talk to the people sitting in their lawn chairs on the side walks over the Summer and you are not going to find many Pro Putin people or many who agree with what he wrote.
This is the danger of getting information from Political Forums as opposed to the people who actually experienced it during the time period face to face.
Just my opinion and experience.
I am not an expert or a scholar and I don't pretend to be one, I just know a lot of people who actually 'lived' it.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

You blame the US too much and do not have a poor word for communism. That's cool but you should know that it was not only in the 90s that the Soviet Union and its republics were poor. When I was there, for example, for half the absolutely freezing winter there was no hot water. People would wake up two hours early to boil water on the stove to take a bath in. Finally holes were dug all over the city to do something underground that would lead to hot water getting into homes. But the wide, deep holes were never filled in and so they were a constant hazard for falling into and suffering grave injury. This was the Soviet Union, in which everything went wrong because no one had an incentive to make it work right, and I could give you a million real-life examples of what it was like to live there and how people actually felt about it... which was very poorly.

Russia had a very weak hand in the 20th century. They lost over 40 million people in the two world wars (USA lost ~1 million), and were isolated from the other western countries after world war II. Given the circumstances they did reasonably well. They simply did not have a margin of manoeuvre. Obviously, their living standards would have been higher if they had suffered fewer casualties and waste in WW2 for example, but that's not a reasonable position. They could have done better having open and fair trade with the western countries, but the western countries say no. It's not an option available to them.

If you're playing chess, and you start off missing 4 pawns, a rook, and both bishops, you're going to have a very hard time. That's just how it is. If you can then compete for nearly a century's worth of moves, you're doing a lot right.

Have you ever started a chess match missing 4 pawns, a rook, and both bishops? No? Neither have I.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

not from 'online political forums'- ... danger of getting information from Political Forums

I never stated nor implied that most of my information came from forums. It is unfortunate that you feel the need to come up with inane, incorrect assumptions, rather than simply saying the truth, that you don't know where my information comes from.

Obviously, most of my awareness of Russia comes from interactions with Russian ex-pats, as well as deliberate exposure to international media, rather than forums. I wasn't giving much thought to Russia prior to 2008, when I began to know some people who have spent time or grew up in the region.

 

[hairblues]

[QUOTE="David_MPN, post: 1470695, member: 117379"t.

Have you ever started a chess match missing 4 pawns, a rook, and both bishops? No? Neither have I.[/QUOTE]

Real life is not 'chess' where you start out with exactly even playing fields like for like...this analogy is irrelevant to actual reality or history.
Confusing the principles of chess game to think strategically is not the same as expecting to have an even playing field as an excuse for relative failure/success, And has little to do with the actual conversation.

 

[hairblues]

I never stated nor implied that most of my information came from forums. It is unfortunate that you feel the need to come up with inane, incorrect assumptions, rather than simply saying the truth, that you don't know where my information comes from.

Obviously, most of my awareness of Russia comes from interactions with Russian ex-pats, as well as deliberate exposure to international media, rather than forums. I wasn't giving much thought to Russia prior to 2008, when I began to know some people who have spent time or grew up in the region.

I got it from you and the many times paraphrasing and talking in detail about the political forums which you admire and say you visit often.
I never once heard you mention knowing ex-pats from Russia or former Soviet Union in your real daily life.
It's not an unreasonable assumption its based off your many, many previous postings on politics and on Russia. It is not like this subject matter has not come up maybe a dozen times since I joined this forum and you have been an active poster on the topic.

and its not obvious your awareness comes from real life face to face ex pats NOT from my life experience and I can be wrong of course but I feel pretty confident assuming I know more of them in person than you do just logistically where I grew up have lived and worked. I have worked with many of them over the years and have also studied with them and under them over the years. Intimatly.
Maybe you know a few in passing but I doubt you are finding many or nearly enough in real life to support or legitimize what you posted earlier.

And by the way inane' means 'stupid' so again you can dish out the insults like it is nothing but can't handle when it comes back to you.
If I was to go at you right now in a very authentic transparent manner--you would think I was being 'mean' to you, or as if I was looking to 'fight'--when you clearly lay little word traps to provoke and insult people in a very polished manner as opposed to me who will just say transparently what I mean.
Yet you write sh*t like that as if its nothing...that is what I mean by you are inauthentic.
It is sneaky.
And passive aggressive
And you can dish it out but can't handle it if when it comes back to you.
Honestly though you are not even worth it
Have a nice day David--the weather is lovely...

 

[yetti]

Russia had a very weak hand in the 20th century. They lost over 40 million people in the two world wars (USA lost ~1 million), and were isolated from the other western countries after world war II. Given the circumstances they did reasonably well. They simply did not have a margin of manoeuvre. Obviously, their living standards would have been higher if they had suffered fewer casualties and waste in WW2 for example, but that's not a reasonable position. They could have done better having open and fair trade with the western countries, but the western countries say no. It's not an option available to them.

If you're playing chess, and you start off missing 4 pawns, a rook, and both bishops, you're going to have a very hard time. That's just how it is. If you can then compete for nearly a century's worth of moves, you're doing a lot right.

Have you ever started a chess match missing 4 pawns, a rook, and both bishops? No? Neither have I.

I am sorry but this conversation is getting very silly. The town I lived in, there was only one copy machine. It was in the governent building. Any person in the entire town who wanted to make a photocopy had to do it there, under the watchful eye of a government monitor. The people were not trusted to make a single photocopy on their own. Tell me how this is something the "western countries" did to them, and also tell me how they would possibly be able to do, well, any kind of business or work without being able to easily copy and distribute a document. I can go on. You are in a weird la la land about this.

 

[pjhair]

The town I lived in, there was only one copy machine. It was in the governent building. Any person in the entire town who wanted to make a photocopy had to do it there, under the watchful eye of a government monitor. The people were not trusted to make a single photocopy on their own.

This sounds horrible. I have read elsewhere that common folks in USSR were really unhappy. They used to dream about visiting other countries beyond the iron curtain and enjoy the food and music. I don't know how accurate that is.

My experience with communism comes from India. Communist parties stifled the development of Indian state of West Bengal, one of the only two Indian states they ruled for an extended period of time. One another thing that I have noticed is that Indian leftists and communists are fiercely anti-US. They despise any kind of US-India alliance even at the cost of national interest. They continuously encourage India to be soft towards Pakistan, a country that has regularly carried out terrorist attacks in India. They hate Israel a country that has been a friend to India but love Pakistan as they are a Muslim country. Indian lefties love sucking Muslim dicks.

Ignorant lefties in the US get their information about India from Indian leftists who hate the US. Indian lefties regularly contribute to NY times and other media outlets posing as friends. They have portrayed the current Indian government as oppressive because it's right wing. It's ironical as the current Indian govt is fiercely pro-US and is trying to establish stronger ties with US and Israel. I despise Indian lefties and communists for their unholy alliance with Islam and their hate for the US. Basically, right wingers in India tend to be pro-US and anti-Islam and Indian lefties tend to be anti-US and pro-Islam. You see a pattern?

Evangelical Christians in the US hate Indian right wingers though as they tend to be Hindus and against any kind of religious conversion. As a result, evangelicals strongly support left wing and even communist parties in India. It's laughable actually to see American evangelicals align with Indian lefties and communists who despise the US.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

If I was to go at you right now in a very authentic transparent manner

You are very angry and belligerent all the time, which is why I've given up on you. I gave you an honest chance and I'm happy with that.

Since you're the only person on the forum who behaves this way -- and you in turn get into lots of fights with lots of different posters -- I know it's you and not me.

the weather is lovely...

I hope you go out and enjoy it rather than stay indoors all day rather than ruminate in your anger.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I am sorry but this conversation is getting very silly. The town I lived in, there was only one copy machine. It was in the governent building. Any person in the entire town who wanted to make a photocopy had to do it there, under the watchful eye of a government monitor. The people were not trusted to make a single photocopy on their own. Tell me how this is something the "western countries" did to them, and also tell me how they would possibly be able to do, well, any kind of business or work without being able to easily copy and distribute a document.

You lived there in the 1990s correct? That's when the country was borderline dying. That was part of my point. It's largely due to how badly the country was doing in the 1990s that Putin's popularity is very high now.

Similarly, it's been pointed out by others that if Trump succeeds in creating middle-class jobs he'll end up being tremendously popular, as he'll have stopped the misery now characterizing large swaths of America, in places like Flint, Michigan that don't even have clean water. However, honestly, I don't think he will.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

This sounds horrible. I have read elsewhere that common folks in USSR were really unhappy. They used to dream about visiting other countries beyond the iron curtain and enjoy the food and music. I don't know how accurate that is.

My experience with communism comes from India. Communist parties stifled the development of Indian state of West Bengal, one of the only two Indian states they ruled for an extended period of time. One another thing that I have noticed is that Indian leftists and communists are fiercely anti-US. They despise any kind of US-India alliance even at the cost of national interest. They continuously encourage India to be soft towards Pakistan, a country that has regularly carried out terrorist attacks in India. They hate Israel a country that has been a friend to India but love Pakistan as they are a Muslim country. Indian lefties love sucking Muslim dicks.

Ignorant lefties in the US get their information about India from Indian leftists who hate the US. Indian lefties regularly contribute to NY times and other media outlets posing as friends. They have portrayed the current Indian government as oppressive because it's right wing. It's ironical as the current Indian govt is fiercely pro-US and is trying to establish stronger ties with US and Israel. I despise Indian lefties and communists for their unholy alliance with Islam and their hate for the US. Basically, right wingers in India tend to be pro-US and anti-Islam and Indian lefties tend to be anti-US and pro-Islam. You see a pattern?

Evangelical Christians in the US hate Indian right wingers though as they tend to be Hindus and against any kind of religious conversion. As a result, evangelicals strongly support left wing and even communist parties in India. It's laughable actually to see American evangelicals align with Indian lefties and communists who despise the US.

Are Indians aware that India is the cool place to go to for Israelis after their military service? Or is it too obscure for such a gigantic country to be aware of?