This Guy Got Insane Regrowth With Daily Dermarolling (along With finasteride And minoxidil)

[infinitepain]

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...inasteride-results-7-mo-treatment-pics.44087/

This guy was a massive finasteride responder obviously, but he points to the best regrowth happening by using dermarolling at 0.5mm daily then applying minoxidil.

The question is: how isn't this insane? daily dermarolling isn't enough time for it to wound, even if he says there's no bleeding, the microwounds are there for sure... so what's going on?

And lol at applying lotions right after dermarolling. Wouldn't that be painful?

 

[Alphalete]

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...inasteride-results-7-mo-treatment-pics.44087/

This guy was a massive finasteride responder obviously, but he points to the best regrowth happening by using dermarolling at 0.5mm daily then applying minoxidil.

The question is: how isn't this insane? daily dermarolling isn't enough time for it to wound, even if he says there's no bleeding, the microwounds are there for sure... so what's going on?

And lol at applying lotions right after dermarolling. Wouldn't that be painful?

I don't think his hairloss was entirely genetic (due to DHT), rather because of an inflammated scalp. By treating it with perilla leaves and nizoral, his issues subsided.

 

[infinitepain]

I don't think his hairloss was entirely genetic (due to DHT), rather because of an inflammated scalp. By treating it with perilla leaves and nizoral, his issues subsided.

DHT causes inflammation...

it must be mostly the finasteride and minoxidil


this guy got insane regrowth in 6 months from finasteride:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...-with-finasteride-after-6-months-pics.107836/

I wonder why the hell these guys are such good responders

 

[Mook]

Yeah there’s something odd going on with this guys hair, he was a diffused Norwood 4 and literally is now a nw0 with amazing density. He has a few youtube videos where you can really see it. I’ve never seen someone grow their temples back like that without an hair transplant, I really don’t know how he did it.

 

[arnoldd]

Yeah there’s something odd going on with this guys hair, he was a diffused Norwood 4 and literally is now a nw0 with amazing density. He has a few youtube videos where you can really see it. I’ve never seen someone grow their temples back like that without an hair transplant, I really don’t know how he did it.

Who is ? What regimen did he use ?

 

[infinitepain]

I tried Perilla Leaves from 6 months, never helped with the itch.
He's from Finland, the website which sells Perilla Leaves is from Finland. He's selling an ebook (10€ for 65 pages).
I don't know what to think about him, but he's here to sell something. Finasteride saved his hair. Not Perilla Leaves from Finland. Maybe Dermarolling helped a bit.

I know, and if he is a scammer telling people to dermaroll daily that could be brutal for people's hair. I mean we dont know if he is legit or not, but rolling with 1.5mm daily seems nuts isnt it?

 

[itchymadscalp]

I know, and if he is a scammer telling people to dermaroll daily that could be brutal for people's hair. I mean we dont know if he is legit or not, but rolling with 1.5mm daily seems nuts isnt it?

I didn't say he was a scammer, did I ?
I just said he has something to sell, a book (10$ for 65 pages lol) at least. When I see that, I prefer to be suspicious.

 

[infinitepain]

I didn't say he was a scammer, did I ?
I just said he has something to sell, a book (10$ for 65 pages lol) at least. When I see that, I prefer to be suspicious.

Indeed, but then again, if I had a massive successful story and I could bank on it, I would probably too.. buts its safe to assume theres something going on.

What do you think about the 1.5mm daily?

 

[infinitepain]

@infinitepain : I tried ... and it was a fail. But I have a very agressive hairloss. I can't be sure if it's useless or not.

Well, that guy said that he had very agressive hairloss.
What makes you say Kane are scammers on your sig? I was considering some RU.

What is left for you to try before going ER?

 

[IdealForehead]

Yeah there’s something odd going on with this guys hair, he was a diffused Norwood 4 and literally is now a nw0 with amazing density. He has a few youtube videos where you can really see it. I’ve never seen someone grow their temples back like that without an hair transplant, I really don’t know how he did it.

Guys that can do this are genetically gifted and nothing more. In most men hair follicles fibrose and scar off after 1-3 years of being gone. Many as soon as a few months.

So most of us can NEVER get back long dead follicles barring some new nonexistant stem cell technology of the future.

But maybe 1-5% of guys dont get that fibrosis. The hair follicles just go quiet and as soon as you add an effective treatment they spring back into life.

None of us choose our genetics or follicle scarring speed. All we can each do is get on the best treatments possible as soon as we can and hope for the best.

 

[infinitepain]

Guys that can do this are genetically gifted and nothing more. In most men hair follicles fibrose and scar off after 1-3 years of being gone. Many as soon as a few months.

So most of us can NEVER get back long dead follicles barring some new nonexistant stem cell technology of the future.

But maybe 1-5% of guys dont get that fibrosis. The hair follicles just go quiet and as soon as you add an effective treatment they spring back into life.

None of us choose our genetics or follicle scarring speed. All we can each do is get on the best treatments possible as soon as we can and hope for the best.

How do you even know it's scalp fibrosis or anything else? his scalp looked fucked up in some of the pics:

Are you kidding me? this is insane.

 

[IdealForehead]

How do you even know it's scalp fibrosis or anything else? his scalp looked fucked up in some of the pics:

View attachment 83706

Are you kidding me? this is insane.

You can't know. That's the point. Only way to know is try the most aggressive treatment you can and see what happens.

Probably you could tell if you did a scalp biopsy also. I bet in a guy like that it would show a lot of very tiny follicles were still there dormant, there is a greater percent of stem cells associated with the follicles, and/or the scarring to the follicles is less.

Some guys are just luckier than others.

 

[InBeforeTheCure]

Probably you could tell if you did a scalp biopsy also. I bet in a guy like that it would show a lot of very tiny follicles were still there dormant, there is a greater percent of stem cells associated with the follicles, and/or the scarring to the follicles is less.

Tiny follicles are still there in the vast majority, and they aren't dormant either - they still go into anagen and produce (tiny) hair. Like this:

Source: Jahoda

You can see the tiny vellus hairs if you look closely.

If you're old and have been bald for 20 years, maybe those follicles are destroyed...

In the frontal (bald) area of Androgenetic Alopecia, perifollicular inflammatory infiltrate was observed in the majority of cases (90%). Meanwhile, no fibrosis was observed in 40% and only 10% showed marked fibrosis and complete destruction of hair follicles in the old age group with advanced Androgenetic Alopecia. These results are close to those observed by El-Domyati et al.16 who reported inflammatory reaction in female subjects with Androgenetic Alopecia with destruction of follicular structure and replacement by fibrous tracts in severe cases. Meanwhile, Abell26 reported an inflammatory reaction in 75% of balding patients, focal fibrosis in 25%, and destruction of follicular structures in 5%.

Source: El-Domyati et al.

 

[IdealForehead]

Tiny follicles are still there in the vast majority, and they aren't dormant either - they still go into anagen and produce (tiny) hair. Like this:

View attachment 83710

Source: Jahoda

You can see the tiny vellus hairs if you look closely.

If you're old and have been bald for 20 years, maybe those follicles are destroyed...



Source: El-Domyati et al.

One of the theories is that once the arrector pili muscle detaches from the follicle it becomes irreversible.

So for example in autoimmune alopecias where the muscle stays attached to the hair follicle full recoveries are common. But in androgenic alopecia full recovery is rare.

This theory and others are discussed here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987717310411

Whatever the case may be it is clear from people's experiences only the minority of men with androgenic alopecia will get a major recovery.

 

[InBeforeTheCure]

One of the theories is that once the arrector pili muscle detaches from the follicle it becomes irreversible.

So for example in autoimmune alopecias where the muscle stays attached to the hair follicle full recoveries are common. But in androgenic alopecia full recovery is rare.

Yeah, I don't buy that for a second, for a few reasons:
1) There's no evidence that the APM is required for terminal hair growth. In fact, sea otters don't have APMs and their hair does just fine.
2) The connection to the APM is severed during hair transplants. After transplanting the new hair follicle, the follicle establishes a new APM connection. Also, Tsuji's hair germs (using just the dermal papilla cells and epithelial stem cells of the follicle) also organize perfectly fine into a fully functional HF, and these establish APM connections as well.
3) Actually, A.G.A is highly reversible in many cases. It's just that current treatments don't effectively reverse it. One exception: Strong anti-androgens combined with 17beta-estradiol. Even though not everyone who uses these gets amazing results, reversal of multiple Norwoods happens reasonably often. With conventional treatments, this happens very rarely. But the results of transgenders blow away a lot of these ideas.

I think to best explain this phenomenon, we should look at analogous characteristics of similar traits to A.G.A. What are similar traits to A.G.A? Any other developmental hair growth trait, basically. Unibrows, eyebrow thickness, beard thickness, body hair, etc. We can see this from the genetics of these traits. I discussed this before:

But A.G.A becomes hard to reverse very early.

Now, if you compare genes for different traits related to hair growth -- beard thickness, unibrow, male pattern baldness, eyebrow thickness, and alopecia areata -- the genes associated with each are very similar, except for alopecia areata which is a clear outlier (involving mostly immunity-related genes). Of the 50 genetic loci associated with unibrows, 21 are also associated with A.G.A (42 percent). Eyebrow thickness shares 6 out of 10 (60 percent) with A.G.A. Beard thickness shares 3 out of 8 (37.5 percent). These genes are mostly members of major HF developmental pathways (Wnt, EDA, Shh, BMP, etc.) or transcription factors that control members of those pathways (Sox2, Runx1, Trps1, Blimp1, etc.). [Add: Also target genes of those pathways that carry out their functions - ex. BCL2 for A.G.A, and Cyclin D1 for A.G.A and unibrows - target genes of Hedgehog signaling in HF stem cells and the outer root sheath that regulate cell survival and proliferation respectively]. The outlier, alopecia areata, shares 0 out of 14 with A.G.A.

In other words, the genes determining whether you have short unpigmented vellus hair or long dark terminal hair between your eyes overlap heavily with the genes that determine whether you have short unpigmented vellus hair or long dark terminal hair on your temples. Or the same over a wider or narrower region of skin above your eyes, and so on. Given the tremendous overlap, sex hormones might influence hair growth by modulating the key developmental pathways (Wnt, EDA, Shh, BMP, etc.) and the transcription factors that control these pathways.

So I suspect the answer to "Why are androgens required for progression of A.G.A but not for maintaining miniaturization of affected hairs?" is probably similar to the answer to "Why are androgens required for development of terminal facial hair but not their maintenance?" And the answer to "Why is it so hard to turn A.G.A-affected vellus hairs terminal again?" is probably similar to "Why is it so hard to grow terminal hair all over my forehead?" I don't know the answers to these questions.

Note: Genetic loci with p < 1e-5 counted for A.G.A.

What can conventional treatments do for facial hair growth, or forehead hair growth? Well, here are some "good responders" to minoxidil.

That's a lot of peach fuzz, but will those girls ever grow a beard like this on just minoxidil?

Probably not. Minoxidil isn't enough to compensate for lack of the powerful hair follicle development program the genetic data implicate (probably launched in response to DHT). Same might apply to A.G.A - minoxidil very rarely regrows thick terminal hair in slick bald areas (one of the very rare exceptions is of course Somebody). Meanwhile, one thing that does seem to activate the fundamental developmental pathways in frontal scalp HFs is 17beta-estradiol, but that's a post for another time.

This theory and others are discussed here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987717310411

Come ooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

Whatever the case may be it is clear from people's experiences only the minority of men with androgenic alopecia will get a major recovery.

With the proper tools, a lot more probably would.

 

[IdealForehead]

Yeah, I don't buy that for a second, for a few reasons:
1) There's no evidence that the APM is required for terminal hair growth. In fact, sea otters don't have APMs and their hair does just fine.
2) The connection to the APM is severed during hair transplants. After transplanting the new hair follicle, the follicle establishes a new APM connection. Also, Tsuji's hair germs (using just the dermal papilla cells and epithelial stem cells of the follicle) also organize perfectly fine into a fully functional HF, and these establish APM connections as well.
3) Actually, A.G.A is highly reversible in many cases. It's just that current treatments don't effectively reverse it. One exception: Strong anti-androgens combined with 17beta-estradiol. Even though not everyone who uses these gets amazing results, reversal of multiple Norwoods happens reasonably often. With conventional treatments, this happens very rarely. But the results of transgenders blow away a lot of these ideas.

I think to best explain this phenomenon, we should look at analogous characteristics of similar traits to A.G.A. What are similar traits to A.G.A? Any other developmental hair growth trait, basically. Unibrows, eyebrow thickness, beard thickness, body hair, etc. We can see this from the genetics of these traits. I discussed this before:



What can conventional treatments do for facial hair growth, or forehead hair growth? Well, here are some "good responders" to minoxidil.

View attachment 83722

View attachment 83723

That's a lot of peach fuzz, but will those girls ever grow a beard like this on just minoxidil?

View attachment 83724

Probably not. Minoxidil isn't enough to compensate for lack of the powerful hair follicle development program the genetic data implicate (probably launched in response to DHT). Same might apply to A.G.A - minoxidil very rarely regrows thick terminal hair in slick bald areas (one of the very rare exceptions is of course Somebody). Meanwhile, one thing that does seem to activate the fundamental developmental pathways in frontal scalp HFs is 17beta-estradiol, but that's a post for another time.



Come ooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.



With the proper tools, a lot more probably would.

Yeah i think thats fair to say that most people with strong antiandrogens plus estrogen can get 1-2+ norwoods back.

We are having a thread right now on estrogen and it seems to be primarily ER-beta binding that stimulates hair to go into anagen from estrogens.

As a result I am adding genistein which is a selective ER-beta agonist to my topical hairloss solution. That plus daro gives a combo of androgen deprivation/castration with the favorable type of estrogenic stimulation, ideally with both effects primarily localized.

Overall you're more optimistic about prospects for new therapies reversing Androgenetic Alopecia than me though. Maybe in 10 years we'll have something revolutionary but I'm not expecting much sooner.

 

[InBeforeTheCure]

Yeah i think thats fair to say that most people with strong antiandrogens plus estrogen can get 1-2+ norwoods back.

We are having a thread right now on estrogen and it seems to be primarily ER-beta binding that stimulates hair to go into anagen from estrogens.

As a result I am adding genistein which is a selective ER-beta agonist to my topical hairloss solution. That plus daro gives a combo of androgen deprivation/castration with the favorable type of estrogenic stimulation, ideally with both effects primarily localized.

Overall you're more optimistic about prospects for new therapies reversing Androgenetic Alopecia than me though. Maybe in 10 years we'll have something revolutionary but I'm not expecting much sooner.

FWIW, I'm not optimistic about the prospects of such a therapy over the next 10 years either, but do think it could be done some day. I'm much more optimistic about cell-based therapies -- especially Tsuji -- in the nearer future.

 

[IdealForehead]

FWIW, I'm not optimistic about the prospects of such a therapy over the next 10 years either, but do think it could be done some day. I'm much more optimistic about cell-based therapies -- especially Tsuji -- in the nearer future.

Yeah maybe. My opinion now and always is if you want to do something revolutionary for your hair you gotta do it on your own. Can't sit around waiting for Tsuji, etc.

Every year you wait is more hair. And I think even if we don't have all the answers on why hair does what it does, there's enough info and enough chemicals out there that most of us should be able to stop and at least partially reverse our hair loss if we really want.

If the future brings something lucky great. Otherwise if a person does their homework, works hard, and doesn't wait too long to treat, luck is not really needed.

 

[infinitepain]

Yeah, I don't buy that for a second, for a few reasons:
1) There's no evidence that the APM is required for terminal hair growth. In fact, sea otters don't have APMs and their hair does just fine.
2) The connection to the APM is severed during hair transplants. After transplanting the new hair follicle, the follicle establishes a new APM connection. Also, Tsuji's hair germs (using just the dermal papilla cells and epithelial stem cells of the follicle) also organize perfectly fine into a fully functional HF, and these establish APM connections as well.
3) Actually, A.G.A is highly reversible in many cases. It's just that current treatments don't effectively reverse it. One exception: Strong anti-androgens combined with 17beta-estradiol. Even though not everyone who uses these gets amazing results, reversal of multiple Norwoods happens reasonably often. With conventional treatments, this happens very rarely. But the results of transgenders blow away a lot of these ideas.

I think to best explain this phenomenon, we should look at analogous characteristics of similar traits to A.G.A. What are similar traits to A.G.A? Any other developmental hair growth trait, basically. Unibrows, eyebrow thickness, beard thickness, body hair, etc. We can see this from the genetics of these traits. I discussed this before:



What can conventional treatments do for facial hair growth, or forehead hair growth? Well, here are some "good responders" to minoxidil.

View attachment 83722

View attachment 83723

That's a lot of peach fuzz, but will those girls ever grow a beard like this on just minoxidil?

View attachment 83724

Probably not. Minoxidil isn't enough to compensate for lack of the powerful hair follicle development program the genetic data implicate (probably launched in response to DHT). Same might apply to A.G.A - minoxidil very rarely regrows thick terminal hair in slick bald areas (one of the very rare exceptions is of course Somebody). Meanwhile, one thing that does seem to activate the fundamental developmental pathways in frontal scalp HFs is 17beta-estradiol, but that's a post for another time.



Come ooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.



With the proper tools, a lot more probably would.

What do you think about Somebody's claims? he said he saw the most regrowth with daily dermarolling. How is it even possible to dermaroll daily? he says he doesn't press too much, only partial scarring or something... still, I don't see a good idea in doing that daily, but I can't deny the pictures.

 

[infinitepain]

Yeah maybe. My opinion now and always is if you want to do something revolutionary for your hair you gotta do it on your own. Can't sit around waiting for Tsuji, etc.

Every year you wait is more hair. And I think even if we don't have all the answers on why hair does what it does, there's enough info and enough chemicals out there that most of us should be able to stop and at least partially reverse our hair loss if we really want.

If the future brings something lucky great. Otherwise if a person does their homework, works hard, and doesn't wait too long to treat, luck is not really needed.

I have forgoten to ask: What are your thyroid levels? do you have a decent bloodwork done on this?