The Relationship Between Caffeine Growth And Cox Inhibition

[spollardo]

yes exactly, depending on an individuals aromatase levels.

Sorry, I meant how much do you think the one is responsible for growth as opposed to the other?

in my case they started as small invisible fuzzies on the temples and get a little bit thicker every 2-3 months or so. Probably will take at least 2 years until maximum thickness. however, my non-slick bald diffusion areas thickened up fast.

Interesting. How can you be sure how much to attribute to the dht inhibition and how much to attribute to the E though?

but then the problem is that with low levels of sex hormones long term has a risk of developing bone mineral density problems, like osteoporosis.

By low sex hormones do you mean low androgens from the anti androgen? Aren't you already on cypro also? By the way, how aggressive is your hair loss generally, like what would you progress to if you stopped taking everything right now?

another issue is that with high amounts of E, you are likely to experience some level of testicular atrophy, there are different tolerances to this but T production and fertility may be very difficult to get back after stopping E. Also if a breast gland becomes too developed it is permanent unless you get it surgically removed.. this is some hardcore sh*t, lol.

Yeah no kidding... How much longer do you think you'll keep at it and how long have you been doing it?

 

[bridgeburn]

Sorry, I meant how much do you think the one is responsible for growth as opposed to the other?

well, it works together with synergy. reduce androgens to stop or slow hairloss, increase in E for regrowth.

Interesting. How can you be sure how much to attribute to the dht inhibition and how much to attribute to the E though?

weaker regimens like the big 3 or duta usually doesnt cause dramatic results for those with severe hairloss like I had.

By low sex hormones do you mean low androgens from the anti androgen? Aren't you already on cypro also? By the way, how aggressive is your hair loss generally, like what would you progress to if you stopped taking everything right now?

both T and E maintain bone density. so it's risky to not have either one.
very aggressive, the left side is what I looked like before:

How much longer do you think you'll keep at it

as long as I can handle it.

how long have you been doing it?

started june/july but I have changed my regimen a few times and gradually increased my E dose over time.

 

[spollardo]

well, it works together with synergy. reduce androgens to stop or slow hairloss, increase in E for regrowth.

So you don't think the reduction in DHT results in any regrowth at all independent of any increase in E? Surely since there's (at least) some success from PGD2 blocking this isn't the case?

very aggressive, the left side is what I looked like before:

Wow, those are crazy results especially in such a short time. Hard to argue with that lol.

as long as I can handle it.

Well, presumably you'll stop the E at least once you've got your full head back?

 

[HairCook]

You should make sure ppl are aware that messing with tranny stuff can f*** you up permamently, beyond pfs bullshit.

There is also not such easy thing as "I become a tranny and then go back and maintain with finasteride/dutasteride". If the thin ice you are walking on breaks, you got a problem.

 

[bridgeburn]

So you don't think the reduction in DHT results in any regrowth at all independent of any increase in E? Surely since there's (at least) some success from PGD2 blocking this isn't the case?

i think maybe so if it is done early enough but after a certain point gene expression is reprogrammed. castration for some regrows recently lost hair. and anedoctally from what ive seen, regrowth with finasteride/ dutasteride is more likely when you start treating baldness early.

Well, presumably you'll stop the E at least once you've got your full head back?

idk, im kinda afraid to stop, lol.

You should make sure ppl are aware that messing with tranny stuff can f*** you up permamently, beyond pfs bullshit.

true. I warned him of this. finasteride is really like candy in comparison

 

[inmyhead]

well, it works together with synergy. reduce androgens to stop or slow hairloss, increase in E for regrowth.

weaker regimens like the big 3 or duta usually doesnt cause dramatic results for those with severe hairloss like I had.

both T and E maintain bone density. so it's risky to not have either one.
very aggressive, the left side is what I looked like before:
View attachment 76669

View attachment 76670


as long as I can handle it.

started june/july but I have changed my regimen a few times and gradually increased my E dose over time.

Your face started to look less manly.. Isn't that scary to you?

 

[spollardo]

You should make sure ppl are aware that messing with tranny stuff can f*** you up permamently, beyond pfs bullshit.

There is also not such easy thing as "I become a tranny and then go back and maintain with finasteride/dutasteride". If the thin ice you are walking on breaks, you got a problem.

Oh yeah don't worry lol, I'm mostly just interested in his ideas toward hair loss and his regime. I'm unlikely to go beyond dutasteride or maybe some duta+seti/fevi combo personally.

i think maybe so if it is done early enough but after a certain point gene expression is reprogrammed. castration for some regrows recently lost hair. and anedoctally from what ive seen, regrowth with finasteride/ dutasteride is more likely when you start treating baldness early.

If part of the problem of regrowth from dht inhib alone is a change in gene expression why do you think further regrowth from wounding to reactivate dormant follicles is possible?

idk, im kinda afraid to stop, lol.

Alright man... I'm a little worried for you haha

 

[bridgeburn]

Your face started to look less manly.. Isn't that scary to you?

no, hairloss is scary to me

 

[bridgeburn]

If part of the problem of regrowth from dht inhib alone is a change in gene expression why do you think further regrowth from wounding to reactivate dormant follicles is possible?

its hard to say for sure since reduction in Dht does technically increase the estrogen to androgen ratio some compared to what it was before. although def not in female ranges of course. there are several things which can affect genes, Pge2 actually affects some of thd same pathways as estrogen for example. I think the body does not make a flying f*** of an effort to protect hair if the genes dont instruct it to, but with wounding attention is given to the wound site andthe body must repair it andmaybe by accident it will happen to repair some of the damaged follicles in the area. Wounding also increases growth factors.but of course hormones will damage the follicle again if they are not reduced and the amount of reduction required will vary for individual. for most its not enough, Swiss temples said he burned his scalp with that chemical and got little stubble however it didnt grow past that point. I tried dermarolling for a long time but it didn't seem to help me. of course, there are some dermarolling studies so i dont think its bullshit and some claim at least some success with it here. but who knows if even with wounding they could still lose the regrowth again. The individuals sensitivity levels/skin thickness would be a factor and the exact conditions of the method and needle size. certainely there is some interesting evidence in wounding!

this is just one case, and i highly dont suggest we repeat it Lol.

Alright man... I'm a little worried for you haha

Hahaha, me too

 

[spollardo]

Pge2 actually affects some of thd same pathways as estrogen for example.

So you're saying that estrogen basically acts like a "new hair growth" hormone on the scalp, positively affecting the pathways that cause hair growth? Almost like the yin to the yang of androgens? Does this affect hair generally (i.e. existing hair) or just hair that is yet to grow in? I have read that estrogen increases % of hair in anagen phase. Btw do you have more reading on E and hair growth?

 

[bridgeburn]

Does this affect hair generally (i.e. existing hair) or just hair that is yet to grow in?

Btw do you have more reading on E and hair growth?

It does stimulate existing hair as well. keeping it in anagen stage longer. according to studies it actually causes hair to grow slower yet stay in the anagen stage longer with the exception of the frontotemporal region where it causes longer anagen and faster elongation of existing hair.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11358723
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12190948
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15955089

not about hair, but shows estrogen affect on accelerating wound healing:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10514397

 

[spollardo]

It does stimulate existing hair as well. keeping it in anagen stage longer. according to studies it actually causes hair to grow slower yet stay in the anagen stage longer with the exception of the frontotemporal region where it causes longer anagen and faster elongation of existing hair.
View attachment 77734
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11358723
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12190948
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15955089

not about hair, but shows estrogen affect on accelerating wound healing:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10514397

Good stuff, thanks a lot. I wonder then if another cause for improved growth with dutasteride over finasteride is that it also increases estrogen levels more, not just reduces follicle DHT levels more.

By the way, I know it's basically only said that 5ar type 2 is the only enzyme producing DHT that will affect follicles, but do you think it's possible that other DHT could as well? Since DHT is autocrine, I would assume not...?

 

[bridgeburn]

I wonder then if another cause for improved growth with dutasteride over finasteride is that it also increases estrogen levels more, not just reduces follicle DHT levels more.

yes i think so, estrogen according to one of the studies i posted indirectly reduces Dht some too. theoretically reducing more 5ar can lead to less Dht and more T so also more E and then in turn a bit further more reduction of Dht.

By the way, I know it's basically only said that 5ar type 2 is the only enzyme producing DHT that will affect follicles, but do you think it's possible that other DHT could as well? Since DHT is autocrine, I would assume not...?

Dutasteride has been shown to be more effective than finasteride. I think that serum Dht also contributes to the problem at least to an extant. This could be because like you said of the slightly more increase in E with dutasteride regardless of the follicle Dht. or maybe a fraction of serumn levels could find its way to the follicle before being processed. i don't know so I'm speculating a bit, but even though it doesn't cause immediate affects it could cause other indirect effects affecting long term. These are just theories but say it gets in the scalp skin but not in the derma papilla yet causes fibrosis in the nearby scalp skin. or the Dht which even though doesn't get to the follicle could downregulate Estrogen reducing the amount of adipose fat in the scalp which in turn reduces the amount of aromatase in our scalp and hair and less protection even to T!
According to some studies someone showed me on this site, T and E causes negative feedback on the HPG axis but DHT doesn't, which does make DHT particularly nasty, that would mean that 5ar would to an extant increase the amount of Testosterone being produced whenever it combines with T!

 

[spollardo]

Dutasteride has been shown to be more effective than finasteride. I think that serum Dht also contributes to the problem at least to an extant. This could be because like you said of the slightly more increase in E with dutasteride regardless of the follicle Dht. or maybe a fraction of serumn levels could find its way to the follicle before being processed. i don't know so I'm speculating a bit, but even though it doesn't cause immediate affects it could cause other indirect effects affecting long term. These are just theories but say it gets in the scalp skin but not in the derma papilla yet causes fibrosis in the nearby scalp skin. or the Dht which even though doesn't get to the follicle could downregulate Estrogen reducing the amount of adipose fat in the scalp which in turn reduces the amount of aromatase in our scalp and hair and less protection even to T!
According to some studies someone showed me on this site, T and E causes negative feedback on the HPG axis but DHT doesn't, which does make DHT particularly nasty, that would mean that 5ar would to an extant increase the amount of Testosterone being produced whenever it combines with T!

These are all pretty interesting ideas! Yeah I can see how that although the remaining DHT from type 1 enzyme might not directly affect he follicle, it could certainly have a lot of other indirect effects.

What do you think of the idea that finasteride and dutasteride, while dutasteride inhibits more DHT overall, finasteride kills certain other enzymes and dutasteride also kills others (with lots of overlap), meaning that finasteride could be useful with dutasteride in a supplementary sense? Or do you think perhaps even if there was one it would be so minuscule as to be not worth it?

Also kinda related... Why do you think there are reports that some people see worsening of their condition after switching finasteride to dutasteride?

 

[bridgeburn]

What do you think of the idea that finasteride and dutasteride, while dutasteride inhibits more DHT overall, finasteride kills certain other enzymes and dutasteride also kills others (with lots of overlap), meaning that finasteride could be useful with dutasteride in a supplementary sense?

Hmmmm, no idea. Ive never heard that before lol. I have also wondered if combining finasteride with dutasteride would be more effective than dutasteride alone. but ive never seen a study which showed that, if you find one please share. there was a study showing taking .5mg dutasteride once a week in addition to finasteride everyday is better than finasteride alone.

Or do you think perhaps even if there was one it would be so minuscule as to be not worth it?

for an extreme regimen like mine. definitely miniscule at that point lol. but for others maybe although it may be hard to know if results are just from dutasteride and adding finasteride is just wasting money.
unless someone was losing ground with finasteride switched to dutasteride, and then someday loses ground again and then adds finasteride and gains ground.

Also kinda related... Why do you think there are reports that some people see worsening of their condition after switching finasteride to dutasteride?

I have heard that people with different genomes may respond to one drug but not the other. IdealForehead for example said that he got Dht levels tested and that both finasteride and dutasteride doesn't reduce his Dht.

 

[spollardo]

but ive never seen a study which showed that, if you find one please share.

Sorry... Don't actually have one, just saw someone on this forum say they saw something that suggested that would be the case.

there was a study showing taking .5mg dutasteride once a week in addition to finasteride everyday is better than finasteride alone.

Doesn't this kinda go without saying? Since dutasteride should just be help to block more overall anyway

unless someone was losing ground with finasteride switched to dutasteride, and then someday loses ground again and then adds finasteride and gains ground.

Yeah, I suppose this would be the only real way to tell, and perhaps the only time it's worth it lol...

I have heard that people with different genomes may respond to one drug but not the other. IdealForehead for example said that he got Dht levels tested and that both finasteride and dutasteride doesn't reduce his Dht.

Huh, that's pretty daunting. I assume that's a very rare case... I wonder what could cause that. Not had my hormones tested but I did experience very mild transient testicle ache so I assumed it was working from that.

Which also makes me wonder, did you get your hormones tested and how have you been sides wise? I'm not sure what causes the testicle ache exactly but I assume you must have some degree of sides?

 

[bridgeburn]

Which also makes me wonder, did you get your hormones tested and how have you been sides wise? I'm not sure what causes the testicle ache exactly but I assume you must have some degree of sides?

no i didnt get tested, I imagine it would be an awkward conversation with the doctor, like why do have such high E amd low T? lol, I hear its expensive to get Dht tested too.
I got lots of sides of course, but to me its a good sign. My dick still works so thats all that matters Lol.

 

[spollardo]

no i didnt get tested, I imagine it would be an awkward conversation with the doctor, like why do have such high E amd low T? lol, I hear its expensive to get Dht tested too.

Haha, yeah that might be a little awkward... Probs not worth testing DHT unless you don't seem to be getting results as well I suppose. I mean, I assume your body is either gonna metabolise the finasteride/dutasteride or not, right?

My dick still works so thats all that matters Lol.

What sort of sides you been getting if you don't mind me asking?

 

[inmyhead]

no i didnt get tested, I imagine it would be an awkward conversation with the doctor, like why do have such high E amd low T? lol, I hear its expensive to get Dht tested too.
I got lots of sides of course, but to me its a good sign. My dick still works so thats all that matters Lol.

What sides? Btw, are you software engineer? You look like one lol

 

[bridgeburn]

Btw, are you software engineer?

no

What sides?

What sort of sides you been getting if you don't mind me asking?

I dont make sperm, when I orgasm usually nothing comes out, or its like literally one drop of clear fluid. All of my acne went away. All of my chest hair is miniturizing. I have gyno, nipples are really big and puffy. My sex drive is whatever i want it to be, my body doesnt urge me to use my dick if i choose not too but i can still be aroused whenever i want. my right side of my mustache has a patch that doesnt grow well, lol. and I think my high metabolism slowed down some.