Starting To Wonder If Dht Is Really Relevant In male pattern baldness.....

[HelpMyHair!!]

Also how is tension defined, by slightly contracted muscles? I saw a study where women had non-patterned frontal hair loss due to botox injections for wrinkles.

Bad circulation could be addressed with lowering your blood pressure or doing some other non-proven methods.

Fat layer deterioration, have any more info on this and how to reverse it?

I'm not sure, but here is a study done on M/F scalps. Thicknesses of the layers under the scalps, and a distinct difference between the dermis, and epidermis, and hypodermis in balding scalps versus normal ones.

Balding scalp dermis, epidermis, and hypodermis layers were anywhere from 24%-44% thinner in balding scalps compared to non-balding scalps.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

The ones with plenty of DHT in their scalp do bald though don't they. Seen enough female to male transition photos to know that hair gets decimated as a result of androgen supplementation.

To each their own, but it has to make some of us wince to see someone "toss away good hair".

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I think that this approach is in the ballpark but I am not sure that it provides any information related to reversing hair loss. Relaxation medications are still not going to work without estrogen because you have no way to "heal" the fibrosis except for possibly micro-needling. Women and children have an entirely different scalp environment from adult cis-males and I try to re-iterate this to guys expecting cosmetically significant hair regrowth. Estrogen has profound skin and healing effects that leathery male skin lacks. Sorry.

 

[Catagen]

To each their own, but it has to make some of us wince to see someone "toss away good hair".

What do you think of female bodybuilders who use AAS, they even seem to keep their hair quality?
But FtMs always lose hair quality at least if they are lucky, do we know some FtMs who were on T for 20+ years I bet they would be very receded or completely bald.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Once thing could be dosage discipline. MtFs, including myself at times, are often notorious for exceeding recommended hormonal dosages thinking that more E means better, faster results. I would be willing to bet that many FtMs go a little higher on the T than advised but I don't know statistically. I used to be much less cognizant of the need not to switch meds a lot or shock the system with new things or things at much higher serum levels.

I believe that estrogen is generally innocuous to the system. The only harm related to using too much that I know of is fusing breast ducts. Anti-androgens and androgens, on the other hand, seem to often be jarring to the system and frequently when people mention sheds, it seems as though they are on spironolactone, bica or androcur or are FtMs although they only seem to make up about 5 percent of the DIY boards. This could be because wisely, unlike MtFs, FtMs only use T and they don't juggle five different meds as is very common for MtFs.

So there are two ways to go for MtFs, basically. They can use estradiol only, titrating upwards gradually and statistically, this works as well or better than anything else.

Or they can use the Dr. Will Powers program which is un-Goddessly complicated:

Bicalutamide 25-50mg + oral/sublingual estrogen 2-8mg for about 6 months then switch to 200mg rectal progesterone + estrogen shots, and can continuously verify E1/E2 ratios, DHT, luteinizing ....etc.

My massive shed was almost certainly due to spironolactone and my going up to 200 mg without titrating upward gently. I will never touch the stuff again but not because it doesn't grow hair; it does but when people ask if we are weaker on female hormones, generally, I don't notice this except for stairs and walking fast. But on spironolactone, it was almost stereotypical to what you guys would expect. I couldn't open peanut butter jars; I couldn't push the lawn mower any longer. I would sweat copiously and there was general fatigue. I dumped it in May.

 

[whatintheworld]

I think stress response is a very underrated factor when it comes to triggering the male pattern baldness gene.

There are so many examples of people I know who were very stressed, particularly in college in rigorous math and engineering courses, who began losing their hair early. Academic stress is one thing but personal one is another and I have seen many cases of that too.

What I think happens is that the body, as an anti-inflammatory response to this stress, triggers genetic expression that sort of negates non-essential parts of your organism, such as hair. So this is perhaps how male pattern baldness is triggered in some people that otherwise do not have an obvious family history one or two generations down.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I think stress response is a very underrated factor when it comes to triggering the male pattern baldness gene.

There are so many examples of people I know who were very stressed, particularly in college in rigorous math and engineering courses, who began losing their hair early. Academic stress is one thing but personal one is another and I have seen many cases of that too.

What I think happens is that the body, as an anti-inflammatory response to this stress, triggers genetic expression that sort of negates non-essential parts of your organism, such as hair. So this is perhaps how male pattern baldness is triggered in some people that otherwise do not have an obvious family history one or two generations down.

That might be correct but the problem is that at least in the past, male pattern baldness was being diagnosed as Telogen Effluvium which misled the person and nowadays, could result in delay of treatment with finasteride/Min. Some hair loss attributed to stress, probably never returns which then gives us what appears to be a mixed cause.

I had a massive shed to baldness and it all grew back much nicer but in general, it is difficult to coax hair to grow once it is gone. This is probably true for MtFs as well although there are many cases of full recovery from slick bald scalp. Nevertheless, MtFs who start with all or substantially all of their hair, usually end up with this gradual process of improvement over time that might be hard to recognize due to being more subtle than "regrowth". The situation often appears to be less straightforward for balding cis-females, which has surprised me.

If the fibrosis theory is correct then it might be possible to have two different types of baldness associated with inflammation and XY's. My worry for guys under your theory is that both stress and male pattern baldness hair loss could conceivably cause fibrosis of follicles. If this is true, then sheds perhaps due to Telogen Effluvium should be taken just as seriously as male pattern baldness.

 

[whatintheworld]

That might be correct but the problem is that at least in the past, male pattern baldness was being diagnosed as Telogen Effluvium which misled the person and nowadays, could result in delay of treatment with finasteride/Min. Some hair loss attributed to stress, probably never returns which then gives us what appears to be a mixed cause.

I had a massive shed to baldness and it all grew back much nicer but in general, it is difficult to coax hair to grow once it is gone. This is probably true for MtFs as well although there are many cases of full recovery from slick bald scalp. Nevertheless, MtFs who start with all or substantially all of their hair, usually end up with this gradual process of improvement over time that might be hard to recognize due to being more subtle than "regrowth". The situation often appears to be less straightforward for balding cis-females, which has surprised me.

If the fibrosis theory is correct then it might be possible to have two different types of baldness associated with inflammation and XY's. My worry for guys under your theory is that both stress and male pattern baldness hair loss could conceivably cause fibrosis of follicles. If this is true, then sheds perhaps due to Telogen Effluvium should be taken just as seriously as male pattern baldness.

I think my male pattern baldness started as a telogen effluvium. I remember getting out of the shower one day and the whole shower floor was covered in hair. I was in absolute shock, and thought for a while it would grow back because it "seemed" to have the signs of telogen effluvium.

However, now I think I understand it was just a different pathway for the male pattern baldness gene to get triggered. I was under the greatest stress of my life at the time, having panic attacks every other day, it was really hellish. Now, this may all just be a coincidence and I could be wrong. However, seeing as I am the first high Norwood in my family from my entire family tree, either side, cousins, uncles, grandfathers, great grandfathers, whichever way you look, I think this is the most likely explanation for my particular case.

 

[HelpMyHair!!]

I think that this approach is in the ballpark but I am not sure that it provides any information related to reversing hair loss. Relaxation medications are still not going to work without estrogen because you have no way to "heal" the fibrosis except for possibly micro-needling. Women and children have an entirely different scalp environment from adult cis-males and I try to re-iterate this to guys expecting cosmetically significant hair regrowth. Estrogen has profound skin and healing effects that leathery male skin lacks. Sorry.

Oh, I'm in 100% agreement with you. I think Estrogen solves the problem, regardless of circulation, head shape etc.

The billion dollar question is, how to create that environment in ONLY certain areas

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I think my male pattern baldness started as a telogen effluvium. I remember getting out of the shower one day and the whole shower floor was covered in hair. I was in absolute shock, and thought for a while it would grow back because it "seemed" to have the signs of telogen effluvium.

However, now I think I understand it was just a different pathway for the male pattern baldness gene to get triggered. I was under the greatest stress of my life at the time, having panic attacks every other day, it was really hellish. Now, this may all just be a coincidence and I could be wrong. However, seeing as I am the first high Norwood in my family from my entire family tree, either side, cousins, uncles, grandfathers, great grandfathers, whichever way you look, I think this is the most likely explanation for my particular case.

I think that that is an interesting explication that would answer a lot.

As an aside, males have a lot of stress on them in general, just from being males and I admire you all for that now that I am half and half. But I am running entirely on estrogen and without being able to compare, you just don't have that constant noise in your life, that thing that keeps you on edge, that distracts you, that compels you so you can't think about anything else. I found 35 years of that or however long to be waayy more than enough for me. @bridgeburn felt pretty much the same way once he clearly "crossed over".

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Oh, I'm in 100% agreement with you. I think Estrogen solves the problem, regardless of circulation, head shape etc.

The billion dollar question is, how to create that environment in ONLY certain areas

You know what I would predict though: At first lots and lots of guys would get the treatment but then, just like half of these guys who say that it never occurred to them to go on finasteride or they were busy, we will see a huge number of guys who stay bald because once baldness is just a choice, it loses the stigma. Rich women tended to abandon boob jobs once the great masses could afford them. Then assuming it costs something or implies some degree of pain, you would have all of these procrastinators who mean to get around to it and now, unlike finasteride, there is no rush. You can get baldness reversed on your timetable. Or would baldness then become viewed as sloppy and societal pressure would force most guys to get the treatment? I guess it could be some of both.

But in terms of creating the environment, here's the issue. In whites, the beard and scalp hair process have been finely tuned for thousands and thousands of years. Remember most of these molecules are related to the same chemical structure and many of them can "work" for either males or females. Women have very little T but they still have muscles so E and T are interchangeable for many functions in the body. Now with muscles, there is some difference but with other receptors either seems to work fine without major differences.

This is just my conjecture but I think that growing a substantial beard is highly antithetical to scalp hair growth after puberty. For whites, these are the two main sexually dimorphic feature differences when we view people from a short distance and beards and scalp hair served important signaling functions that probably were not present in other races. Or, it might just be a mutation. I think that it is just very difficult to find a balance where males will grow decent hair and what would that mean? Just like white cis-females or just the same type and texture and squared-off hairline as now without the quality improvements which might be due to estrogen's skin effects? This is the limiting factor to me but regrowth or maintaining coverage for males might be within reach. That's just not the kind of hair that I seek. I had that for 30 years and it was okay or I had slight thinning with mostly full coverage but eh.

 

[whatintheworld]

I think that that is an interesting explication that would answer a lot.

As an aside, males have a lot of stress on them in general, just from being males and I admire you all for that now that I am half and half. But I am running entirely on estrogen and without being able to compare, you just don't have that constant noise in your life, that thing that keeps you on edge, that distracts you, that compels you so you can't think about anything else. I found 35 years of that or however long to be waayy more than enough for me. @bridgeburn felt pretty much the same way once he clearly "crossed over".

Interesting observations indeed.

 

[Paulito9x9]

I think stress response is a very underrated factor when it comes to triggering the male pattern baldness gene.

There are so many examples of people I know who were very stressed, particularly in college in rigorous math and engineering courses, who began losing their hair early. Academic stress is one thing but personal one is another and I have seen many cases of that too.

What I think happens is that the body, as an anti-inflammatory response to this stress, triggers genetic expression that sort of negates non-essential parts of your organism, such as hair. So this is perhaps how male pattern baldness is triggered in some people that otherwise do not have an obvious family history one or two generations down.

Could be something to that. I lost most of my hair at uni. I remember my hair falling onto my math textbooks when cramming for exams. There was also the omnipresent itch.
My second largest shed came when I moved abroad which was naturally accompanied by a lot of stress.

 

[Armando Jose]

There are so many examples of people I know who were very stressed, particularly in college in rigorous math and engineering courses, who began losing their hair early. Academic stress is one thing but personal one is another and I have seen many cases of that too.

OK, stress is related to scalp hairs, but stress affect al ALL hairs, it is not patterned issue.

these are the two main sexually dimorphic feature differences when we view people from a short distance and beards and scalp hair served important signaling functions that probably were not present in other races

beards tes but scalp hair can be the same in both sexes, it is only cultural issue.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

OK, stress is related to scalp hairs, but stress affect al ALL hairs, it is not patterned issue.



beards tes but scalp hair can be the same in both sexes, it is only cultural issue.

Well, we often have to limit hair discussions to caucasians because yes, other races struggle with this much less and scalp hair can be similar in Native Americans or Asians but often for whites, you can just look at the hair and there are textural differences and clear differences in terms of things like frizziness. Female scalp hair usually grows in an oval shape, while the adult male hairline is squared off and the hair in front of the ears is always or almost always a huge difference between adult males and females. Even things like back combing are often different and females might have a hard time getting their hair to stay swept back but the male texture assuming full coverage, holds the hair in place. Think southern European males maybe and how they often style their hair or did when I lived there. Maybe Tom Selleck's hair back in the day is an example. There's often like a crunchiness to male hair.

So obviously we are all a bit obsessed with hair but I often think that males in their quest for coverage forget that it's not just hair loss that differentiates the sexes among caucasians. A lot of younger guys hope to get back their pubertal locks via finasteride or minoxidil and unless they just lost it months earlier, that improvement in hair quality rarely happens.

 

[whatintheworld]

OK, stress is related to scalp hairs, but stress affect al ALL hairs, it is not patterned issue.



beards tes but scalp hair can be the same in both sexes, it is only cultural issue.

This is true. But I also lost it on my sides and sort of developed DUPA, and it never grew back.

I also had random patchy spots on my facial hair start appearing and disappearing.

Could everything have been a coincidence? Sure, maybe it would have happened no matter what. But I think stress is an underrated factor for triggering male pattern baldness in some people. I've seen too many examples as evidence, not to mention the academic literature clearly states it as a contributing factor.

How much, well, that's still to be determined.

 

[whatintheworld]

Could be something to that. I lost most of my hair at uni. I remember my hair falling onto my math textbooks when cramming for exams. There was also the omnipresent itch.
My second largest shed came when I moved abroad which was naturally accompanied by a lot of stress.

Yup, that makes sense. I had the itch and burning sensation on my head as well.

University was a factor among many at the time, so everything hit like the perfect storm.

 

[Armando Jose]

there are textural differences

Female scalp hair usually grows in an oval shape, while the adult male hairline is squared off

IMO, there is not such difference among sexes in the same race. Have you any references?

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

IMO, there is not such difference among sexes in the same race. Have you any references?

This is widely acknowledged. Not to be rude, but just look at them:
2. Shape of the hairline
Apart from the position, the shape of the hairline is different as well. A man usually has receded temples that give the hairline an “M” shape. Conversely, the female hair pattern is oval-shaped. It is smoother and full around the facial edge. The temporal area is one of the most important areas. The shape of the outer temple area is especially important, since it's a hallmark of feminine beauty. https://2pass.clinic/en/article/female-hairline-vs-male-hairline-4-main-differences

Virtually all adult white males lose at least some of the hair in front of the ears. It is a dead give-away for a non-juvenile hair line.

 

[Loife]

I actually think the thickness of the skin layers could be the biggest factor and it isn't ever mentioned!
I know it's only on wikipedia but look at this: "The Skin of the scalp has been scientifically examined for thickness. The posterior scalp skin thickness is 1.48 mm; the temporal scalp is 1.38mm; and the anterior scalp thickness is 1.18 mm."

Stating the thinnest layer is the scalp AKA where we lose hair and the thickest is the back where we don't.

Also there is a study showing the difference between female and Males scalp skin layers, I think like estrogen forms the female fat deposits (hips, breast) it also thickens scalp fats.

Also DHT being highly androgenic I would guess similar to steroidal use thins the skin at a higher rate. I think this is what causes male pattern baldness. The pattern must be for a reason!

I would post the links but it won't post because I'm a new member.