Starting To Wonder If Dht Is Really Relevant In male pattern baldness.....

HelpMyHair!!

Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
11
Starting to really wonder if elevated DHT levels in the scalps of balding men is anything more than a symptom of the real underlying problem with male pattern baldness.

Firstly, I do believe it plays a part, and ACCELERATES the condition, but maybe isn't part of the real equation.
Also, I've read all the studies, etc. This is just a theory.

-Finasteride, Dutasteride, DHT blockers, help. However, they are extremely limited in how much they are able to help, let alone they cannot reverse the condition.

-HRT, estrogen has not only stopped male pattern baldness, and or regrew hair......it has completely reversed male pattern baldness in many patients.

-Classic male pattern baldness nearly always follows the same exact pattern. Either one of 2 things has to be true.
A) Every man with Androgenic Alopecia is born with an over sensitivity to Androgens.....only on the male pattern baldness hairs though. DHT is essential to body and beard hair growth. DHT does not affect the hair on the rest of head not in the male pattern baldness area. Why does the same androgen affect hair follicles, on the same person positively except for the male pattern baldness areas on the head?
Or
B) There is another cause.

That leads me to scalp tension, bone structure, and circulation. I know this isn't a new "theory" , but it makes total sense.

-The hair loss is always in the same pattern.
-Studies have shown that the balding areas on the scalp are the highest tension areas on the scalp.

What if this was the chain of events:

1) Scalp tension, bone structure, or some other underlying cause created an environment where certain areas of male scalps begin to be starved for blood flow oxygen (true, has been shown in studies).

2) As a result of the starvation, inflammation occurs in the follicles.

2) The Body sends, creates, more whatever..... DHT to the scalp, because its normally essential in hair growth, and has anti-inflammatory qualities.

3) DHT creates some kind of fibrosis in the follicle, shrinking it. The follicle is now being fed reduced oxygen, blood, and is getting pounded by DHT which is having a negative affect instead of the usual positive one.

Again, this isn't very technical, but here are some things I think that support this kind of possibility.

-Women make way more estrogen, less T then men. Women have smaller skulls. Women usually do not have deterioration of the fat tissue under the scalp until after menopause.


-Finasteride can slow, halt, and sometimes have a minor regrowth effect. But, it cannot reverse male pattern baldness like has been seen in HRT many times.
Maybe this explains the huge difference of results between people. Perhaps the finasteride "super responders" only had a minor circulation/scalp tension issue. Blocking DHT in this person may stop the negative affect DHT is having on the oxygen/blood starved follicles, and allow them to somewhat recover. But it does not address the root underlying cause that caused the inflammation in the first place.

-Minixodil is a vasodialator, and it's effects are limited to religious application, and the results are lost very quickly after stopping it. EVEN if Finasteride is used in combination with it, blocking DHT. This makes 0 logical sense. If minixodil grows a hair, through a follicle, which goes terminal......and you are blocking DHT with finasteride from the underside, it makes no logical sense that finasteride would not maintain that hair.....unless circulation is the underlying cause.

-Maybe this is why microneedling is effective. It stimulates blood flow to the area, helping starved follicles get more oxygen/nutrients.

Is it possible male pattern baldness can be cured 100%, by simply removing any underlying circulation/oxygen problem, even surgically if needed? Perhaps our skulls grow, or we age, and it creates more tension on the scalp over time. As the fat layer deteriorates, the follicle derm pap is being crushed by increased downward pressure from the skull, and from the "cushion" being deteriorated from underneath?

Maybe estrogen, along with some androgenic effects, restores the fat layer under the scalp, and the scalp is well nutritioned again, and this is why some HRT patients have completely reversed male pattern baldness and went from NW6 to NW1 in studies?


Sorry for the long rant, just made a lot of sense to me and wanted to share. Again, its not very technical, but its based on a LOT of reading, studying etc. There are many other phenomenons, that kind of further this train of thought.

Maybe the study on those guys with a total 5ar deficiency only tells part of the story? Yes, they don't ever get AA. However, maybe its not because of the lack of DHT, maybe its because of their increased estrogen (I dont know if this was a by-product of the condition or not, correct me if I'm wrong).

Maybe this explains various stages of baldness in newborns? Maybe as the skull moves, or whatever, it causes small, temporary circulation issues.

Maybe males who do not suffer from AA, just have a better hormonal balance between E and T? Has there ever been a study done to see if AA males have MORE androgen receptors than those without AA in the male pattern baldness areas of the scalp?
Maybe in those who do not have AA, their estrogen level, or balance creates a stable fat layer under their scalp so the follicles never become starved (regardless of head shape).


Rant off, flame if needed. Would love some dialogue or discussion though!
 

Ritchie

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
296
Starting to really wonder if elevated DHT levels in the scalps of balding men is anything more than a symptom of the real underlying problem with male pattern baldness.

Firstly, I do believe it plays a part, and ACCELERATES the condition, but maybe isn't part of the real equation.
Also, I've read all the studies, etc. This is just a theory.

-Finasteride, Dutasteride, DHT blockers, help. However, they are extremely limited in how much they are able to help, let alone they cannot reverse the condition.

-HRT, estrogen has not only stopped male pattern baldness, and or regrew hair......it has completely reversed male pattern baldness in many patients.

-Classic male pattern baldness nearly always follows the same exact pattern. Either one of 2 things has to be true.
A) Every man with Androgenic Alopecia is born with an over sensitivity to Androgens.....only on the male pattern baldness hairs though. DHT is essential to body and beard hair growth. DHT does not affect the hair on the rest of head not in the male pattern baldness area. Why does the same androgen affect hair follicles, on the same person positively except for the male pattern baldness areas on the head?
Or
B) There is another cause.

That leads me to scalp tension, bone structure, and circulation. I know this isn't a new "theory" , but it makes total sense.

-The hair loss is always in the same pattern.
-Studies have shown that the balding areas on the scalp are the highest tension areas on the scalp.

What if this was the chain of events:

1) Scalp tension, bone structure, or some other underlying cause created an environment where certain areas of male scalps begin to be starved for blood flow oxygen (true, has been shown in studies).

2) As a result of the starvation, inflammation occurs in the follicles.

2) The Body sends, creates, more whatever..... DHT to the scalp, because its normally essential in hair growth, and has anti-inflammatory qualities.

3) DHT creates some kind of fibrosis in the follicle, shrinking it. The follicle is now being fed reduced oxygen, blood, and is getting pounded by DHT which is having a negative affect instead of the usual positive one.

Again, this isn't very technical, but here are some things I think that support this kind of possibility.

-Women make way more estrogen, less T then men. Women have smaller skulls. Women usually do not have deterioration of the fat tissue under the scalp until after menopause.


-Finasteride can slow, halt, and sometimes have a minor regrowth effect. But, it cannot reverse male pattern baldness like has been seen in HRT many times.
Maybe this explains the huge difference of results between people. Perhaps the finasteride "super responders" only had a minor circulation/scalp tension issue. Blocking DHT in this person may stop the negative affect DHT is having on the oxygen/blood starved follicles, and allow them to somewhat recover. But it does not address the root underlying cause that caused the inflammation in the first place.

-Minixodil is a vasodialator, and it's effects are limited to religious application, and the results are lost very quickly after stopping it. EVEN if Finasteride is used in combination with it, blocking DHT. This makes 0 logical sense. If minixodil grows a hair, through a follicle, which goes terminal......and you are blocking DHT with finasteride from the underside, it makes no logical sense that finasteride would not maintain that hair.....unless circulation is the underlying cause.

-Maybe this is why microneedling is effective. It stimulates blood flow to the area, helping starved follicles get more oxygen/nutrients.

Is it possible male pattern baldness can be cured 100%, by simply removing any underlying circulation/oxygen problem, even surgically if needed? Perhaps our skulls grow, or we age, and it creates more tension on the scalp over time. As the fat layer deteriorates, the follicle derm pap is being crushed by increased downward pressure from the skull, and from the "cushion" being deteriorated from underneath?

Maybe estrogen, along with some androgenic effects, restores the fat layer under the scalp, and the scalp is well nutritioned again, and this is why some HRT patients have completely reversed male pattern baldness and went from NW6 to NW1 in studies?


Sorry for the long rant, just made a lot of sense to me and wanted to share. Again, its not very technical, but its based on a LOT of reading, studying etc. There are many other phenomenons, that kind of further this train of thought.

Maybe the study on those guys with a total 5ar deficiency only tells part of the story? Yes, they don't ever get AA. However, maybe its not because of the lack of DHT, maybe its because of their increased estrogen (I dont know if this was a by-product of the condition or not, correct me if I'm wrong).

Maybe this explains various stages of baldness in newborns? Maybe as the skull moves, or whatever, it causes small, temporary circulation issues.

Maybe males who do not suffer from AA, just have a better hormonal balance between E and T? Has there ever been a study done to see if AA males have MORE androgen receptors than those without AA in the male pattern baldness areas of the scalp?
Maybe in those who do not have AA, their estrogen level, or balance creates a stable fat layer under their scalp so the follicles never become starved (regardless of head shape).


Rant off, flame if needed. Would love some dialogue or discussion though!
there are currently like 2 active threads about this topic
 

whatevr

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
3,171
Maybe males who do not suffer from AA, just have a better hormonal balance between E and T? Has there ever been a study done to see if AA males have MORE androgen receptors than those without AA in the male pattern baldness areas of the scalp?
Maybe in those who do not have AA, their estrogen level, or balance creates a stable fat layer under their scalp so the follicles never become starved (regardless of head shape).

Read my posts from #10 onwards in this thread, I think the info there will interest you:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...lla-cells-overexpressing.129335/#post-1907841
 

karatekid

Experienced Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
612
I didnt read the whole thing, but isnt most of what you are saying is just the accepted theory today about hairloss? I think this is the consensus. Dht+tension+inflamation+low blood flow = dead follicle, basically. Am I wrong?
 

Ritchie

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
296
I didnt read the whole thing, but isnt most of what you are saying is just the accepted theory today about hairloss? I think this is the consensus. Dht+tension+inflamation+low blood flow = dead follicle, basically. Am I wrong?
some people on here think it is just "sEnSiTiViTy tO DhT". You will get called mentally ill if you believe otherwise.
 

karatekid

Experienced Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
612
some people on here think it is just "sEnSiTiViTy tO DhT". You will get called mentally ill if you believe otherwise.
Sorry man but the backslash you and mitko get on his thread is because his theory getting much worse than that, and has lots of holes and all kind of weird sh*t involved like the ethnicity of the person...
People here dont deny the role of skull tension per se. It's definitely a combination of factors, not only level of dht sensitivity.
 

Ritchie

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
296
Sorry man but the backslash you and mitko get on his thread is because his theory getting much worse than that, and has lots of holes and all kind of weird sh*t involved like the ethnicity of the person...
People here dont deny the role of skull tension per se. It's definitely a combination of factors, not only level of dht sensitivity.
different ethnitities inherit different skulls so there is nothing wrong with bringing ethicities into the discusiion but when did mitko mention ethnicity? but yeah there is some other thing st play aswell. Right now im trying to figure out why a very rare amount of men with smooth galeas diffuse, it is very rare but some diffuse thin but always keep their hairline intact.
 
Last edited:

pegasus2

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
3,206
different ethnitities inherit different skulls but yeah there is some other thing st play aswell. Right now im trying to figure out why a very rare amount of men with smooth galeas diffuse, it is very rare but some diffuse thin but always keep their hairline intact.

Diffused in NW7 pattern here. Smooth galea though. The best galea you could ask for.
 

Ritchie

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
296
Diffused in NW7 pattern here. Smooth galea though. The best galea you could ask for.
can you send pictures please?or this is just anecdotal evidence which i think you called me out for. i really want to see what causes this
This guy is also diffusing but with an intact hairline with an incredibly smooth galea.
 

Attachments

  • gettyimages-109670080-2048x2048.jpg
    gettyimages-109670080-2048x2048.jpg
    81.6 KB · Views: 142
  • gettyimages-109670081-2048x2048.jpg
    gettyimages-109670081-2048x2048.jpg
    79.7 KB · Views: 140

Ritchie

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
296
there are people who have norwood 1 who do not have the smoothest galeas but everytime i see a balding man with a smooth galea it is a norwood 1-1.5 but diffuse thinning everywhere.
 

pegasus2

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
3,206

Ritchie

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
296
all the pictures are taken above your head?? That does not show that you have a smooth galea. Take a photo from the same angle as the man please. I really actually want to see because i have never seen a man with this galea type who is beyond norwood 1.5, they usually thin out on the entirety of their scalp. I have seen men with slightly bigger galeas who are not balding or receding, but a smooth galea is the healthiest type you could have and these men never recede. They just thin out for some other reason.
 

pegasus2

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
3,206
all the pictures are taken above your head?? That does not show that you have a smooth galea. Take a photo from the same angle as the man please. I really actually want to see because i have never seen a man with this galea type who is beyond norwood 1.5, they usually thin out on the entirety of their scalp. I have seen men with slightly bigger galeas who are not balding or receding, but a smooth galea is the healthiest type you could have and these men never recede. They just thin out for some other reason.

I'm not taking frontal pictures for you. You can get an idea from the overhead shot. It's pretty much the same as the guy you just posted.
 

Ritchie

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
296
I'm not taking frontal pictures for you. You can get an idea from the overhead shot. It's pretty much the same as the guy you just posted.
No, yours are taken from literally right above your head. This guy is atleast eye level.
gettyimages-109670080-2048x2048.jpg gettyimages-109670081-2048x2048.jpg 112.jpg Forest_Whitaker_by_Gage_Skidmore.jpg

If you take the same pictures from the same angles as you of this guy his galea will look flat on top. Since the skin colour is the same all over and the picture is from above, any bumps will be disguised. If you take an ariel shot of a field that isnt flat it will look flat from above as long as the grass texture is the same everywhere, same with concrete or anything.
1103470_v9_ba.jpg

If you dont want to prove it with pics, dont. Just dont accuse me of using anecdotal evidence next time even though i do provide pictures for all my claims.
 

pegasus2

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
3,206
You can take my word for it or not, I don't care. It supports your claim since I have little recession but am massively diffused. I still think there's absolutely nothing to this though.
 
Top