Starting To Wonder If Dht Is Really Relevant In male pattern baldness.....

[HelpMyHair!!]

Give a woman DHT and she will bald in the MPΒ pattern.

Not necessarily. Hell, not all men go bald, and most have plenty of DHT.

 

[Joe1111]

Yeah

Starting to really wonder if elevated DHT levels in the scalps of balding men is anything more than a symptom of the real underlying problem with male pattern baldness.

Firstly, I do believe it plays a part, and ACCELERATES the condition, but maybe isn't part of the real equation.
Also, I've read all the studies, etc. This is just a theory.

-Finasteride, Dutasteride, DHT blockers, help. However, they are extremely limited in how much they are able to help, let alone they cannot reverse the condition.

-HRT, estrogen has not only stopped male pattern baldness, and or regrew hair......it has completely reversed male pattern baldness in many patients.

-Classic male pattern baldness nearly always follows the same exact pattern. Either one of 2 things has to be true.
A) Every man with Androgenic Alopecia is born with an over sensitivity to Androgens.....only on the male pattern baldness hairs though. DHT is essential to body and beard hair growth. DHT does not affect the hair on the rest of head not in the male pattern baldness area. Why does the same androgen affect hair follicles, on the same person positively except for the male pattern baldness areas on the head?
Or
B) There is another cause.

That leads me to scalp tension, bone structure, and circulation. I know this isn't a new "theory" , but it makes total sense.

-The hair loss is always in the same pattern.
-Studies have shown that the balding areas on the scalp are the highest tension areas on the scalp.

What if this was the chain of events:

1) Scalp tension, bone structure, or some other underlying cause created an environment where certain areas of male scalps begin to be starved for blood flow oxygen (true, has been shown in studies).

2) As a result of the starvation, inflammation occurs in the follicles.

2) The Body sends, creates, more whatever..... DHT to the scalp, because its normally essential in hair growth, and has anti-inflammatory qualities.

3) DHT creates some kind of fibrosis in the follicle, shrinking it. The follicle is now being fed reduced oxygen, blood, and is getting pounded by DHT which is having a negative affect instead of the usual positive one.

Again, this isn't very technical, but here are some things I think that support this kind of possibility.

-Women make way more estrogen, less T then men. Women have smaller skulls. Women usually do not have deterioration of the fat tissue under the scalp until after menopause.


-Finasteride can slow, halt, and sometimes have a minor regrowth effect. But, it cannot reverse male pattern baldness like has been seen in HRT many times.
Maybe this explains the huge difference of results between people. Perhaps the finasteride "super responders" only had a minor circulation/scalp tension issue. Blocking DHT in this person may stop the negative affect DHT is having on the oxygen/blood starved follicles, and allow them to somewhat recover. But it does not address the root underlying cause that caused the inflammation in the first place.

-Minixodil is a vasodialator, and it's effects are limited to religious application, and the results are lost very quickly after stopping it. EVEN if Finasteride is used in combination with it, blocking DHT. This makes 0 logical sense. If minixodil grows a hair, through a follicle, which goes terminal......and you are blocking DHT with finasteride from the underside, it makes no logical sense that finasteride would not maintain that hair.....unless circulation is the underlying cause.

-Maybe this is why microneedling is effective. It stimulates blood flow to the area, helping starved follicles get more oxygen/nutrients.

Is it possible male pattern baldness can be cured 100%, by simply removing any underlying circulation/oxygen problem, even surgically if needed? Perhaps our skulls grow, or we age, and it creates more tension on the scalp over time. As the fat layer deteriorates, the follicle derm pap is being crushed by increased downward pressure from the skull, and from the "cushion" being deteriorated from underneath?

Maybe estrogen, along with some androgenic effects, restores the fat layer under the scalp, and the scalp is well nutritioned again, and this is why some HRT patients have completely reversed male pattern baldness and went from NW6 to NW1 in studies?


Sorry for the long rant, just made a lot of sense to me and wanted to share. Again, its not very technical, but its based on a LOT of reading, studying etc. There are many other phenomenons, that kind of further this train of thought.

Maybe the study on those guys with a total 5ar deficiency only tells part of the story? Yes, they don't ever get AA. However, maybe its not because of the lack of DHT, maybe its because of their increased estrogen (I dont know if this was a by-product of the condition or not, correct me if I'm wrong).

Maybe this explains various stages of baldness in newborns? Maybe as the skull moves, or whatever, it causes small, temporary circulation issues.

Maybe males who do not suffer from AA, just have a better hormonal balance between E and T? Has there ever been a study done to see if AA males have MORE androgen receptors than those without AA in the male pattern baldness areas of the scalp?
Maybe in those who do not have AA, their estrogen level, or balance creates a stable fat layer under their scalp so the follicles never become starved (regardless of head shape).


Rant off, flame if needed. Would love some dialogue or discussion though!

Yeah but the fact that estrogen reverse it makes it hormonal. I think that some people are more predisposed but its possible do deactivate it in some ways that we still don't know

 

[BetaBoy]

Not necessarily. Hell, not all men go bald, and most have plenty of DHT.

The ones with plenty of DHT in their scalp do bald though don't they. Seen enough female to male transition photos to know that hair gets decimated as a result of androgen supplementation.

 

[Catagen]

The ones with plenty of DHT in their scalp do bald though don't they. Seen enough female to male transition photos to know that hair gets decimated as a result of androgen supplementation.

Female bodybuilders keep their hair pretty well unlike FtM's who all get hair loss, even the ones you wouldn't classify as balding have had mild hair loss and loss of hair quality, what is happening here?

 

[HelpMyHair!!]

I didnt read the whole thing, but isnt most of what you are saying is just the accepted theory today about hairloss? I think this is the consensus. Dht+tension+inflamation+low blood flow = dead follicle, basically. Am I wrong?

Sort of

I'm saying
Underlying cause- Tension, circulation, oxygen, something.

Underlying cause causes follicle to start skewing the androgens inside the follicle itself, which leads to inflammation, which triggers the body to send more DHT to help, which actually furthers the damage. I think too much DHT is not the problem. Too little Estrogen is.

The ones with plenty of DHT in their scalp do bald though don't they. Seen enough female to male transition photos to know that hair gets decimated as a result of androgen supplementation.

Right, but what I'm getting at is, I think DHT in the scalp is a symptom of another, or a few root causes. Not the cause.

Again, just thoughts, and could be 100% wrong.

 

[BetaBoy]

Right, but what I'm getting at is, I think DHT in the scalp is a symptom of another, or a few root causes. Not the cause.

I appreciate that I just can't see it myself when faced with studies directly correlating high scalp DHT levels with MPΒ, and transplantation studies that discredit the tension, circulation, oxygen angle. It seems to me that DHT is an open and shut cause of genetically driven androgenic alopecia.

 

[Armando Jose]

Men without Androgenic Alopecia- Most times have similar T, DHT in their system, but do not experience follicle termination, in the pre-determined pattern.

Important level of androgens in scalp hairs are made inside them, and there s not significant differences among sexes

It is a key

 

[HelpMyHair!!]

I appreciate that I just can't see it myself when faced with studies directly correlating high scalp DHT levels with MPΒ, and transplantation studies that discredit the tension, circulation, oxygen angle. It seems to me that DHT is an open and shut cause of genetically driven androgenic alopecia.

Definitely agree that DHT has a negative effect at the end of whatever is happening.

I'm trying to figure out why, it ONLY effects the follicles in the male pattern baldness region though. I just can't fathom that the pattern, in nearly every male pattern baldness case is genetic. The HRT patients who completely reverse male pattern baldness is another thing that makes it more baffling.
If its genetic, and one is pre-determined to have miniaturization, and follicle death at a certain point, how is it completely reversed when HRT comes into play?

I am not sure if any long term studies have been done on transplant patients, but dont even DHT resistant hairs eventually start to miniaturize when transplanted on top if hormones aren't regulated?
Anybody have any data on this?

 

[Catagen]

I am not sure if any long term studies have been done on transplant patients, but dont even DHT resistant hairs eventually start to miniaturize when transplanted on top if hormones aren't regulated?
Anybody have any data on this?

Some people have miniaturization in the donor area in addition to the regular areas.

 

[Paulito9x9]

I appreciate that I just can't see it myself when faced with studies directly correlating high scalp DHT levels with MPΒ, and transplantation studies that discredit the tension, circulation, oxygen angle. It seems to me that DHT is an open and shut cause of genetically driven androgenic alopecia.

What do you think about the arguments against the transplantation studies provided here https://perfecthairhealth.com/hair-transplants-debunk-scalp-tension-hair-loss/ ?

 

[Mandar kumthekar]

I had been fond of these theories years ago but now i know that hairs are programed from birth to fall after puberty.DHT sensitivity concept is not myth its real science. Hairs transplant success debunked these theories long ago.

 

[BetaBoy]

Definitely agree that DHT has a negative effect at the end of whatever is happening.

I'm trying to figure out why, it ONLY effects the follicles in the male pattern baldness region though. I just can't fathom that the pattern, in nearly every male pattern baldness case is genetic. The HRT patients who completely reverse male pattern baldness is another thing that makes it more baffling.
If its genetic, and one is pre-determined to have miniaturization, and follicle death at a certain point, how is it completely reversed when HRT comes into play?

I am not sure if any long term studies have been done on transplant patients, but dont even DHT resistant hairs eventually start to miniaturize when transplanted on top if hormones aren't regulated?
Anybody have any data on this?

It is well established that ΑGΑ is genetic. HFs do not “die” in ΑGΑ affected regions they simply get smaller every cycle.

I was referring to transplantation of miniaturised hairs to areas of the body that are both highly vascular and of limited tension and yet once transplanted the HF’s continue to miniaturise.

 

[Catagen]

It is well established that ΑGΑ is genetic. HFs do not “die” in ΑGΑ affected regions they simply get smaller every cycle.

I was referring to transplantation of miniaturised hairs to areas of the body that are both highly vascular and of limited tension and yet once transplanted the HF’s continue to miniaturise.

And healthy ones dont?

 

[HelpMyHair!!]

I had been fond of these theories years ago but now i know that hairs are programed from birth to fall after puberty.DHT sensitivity concept is not myth its real science. Hairs transplant success debunked these theories long ago.

Here is an excerpt of what I'm trying to say exactly.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4174066/#!po=1.61290

I think the author is on the right path, noting the pressure on the follicles in the male pattern baldness area increases after T/DHT begin to deteriorate the fat layer under the scalp skin.

I am arguing that increased DHT in balding hair follicles is 2-3 steps AFTER the root cause.

What possible genetic reason would a hair follicle have to start producing more DHT, in male pattern baldness areas only, and not anywhere else? There has to be another factor involved that the follicle is RESPONDING to, putting it into "more DHT" mode.

The fact that this happens, primarily, in the same exact areas only in certain people, makes me believe there is some other underlying cause.

The fact that women do not experience this furthers this theory.

The fact that castrated men only stop balding, not reverse it, furthers this theory.

If Androgen sensitivity was THE reason, then Dutasteride should 100% reverse male pattern baldness.

The fact that HRT patients who are transitioning from M to F can completely REVERSE male pattern baldness is nearly confirmation. It is said (and I think confirmed) that women do not deteriorate the fat "cushion" under the scalp skin until menopause.
Perhaps HRT restores this cushion in M to F transition patients, and THAT is the reason male pattern baldness is reversed?

Maybe not.

 

[HelpMyHair!!]

It is well established that ΑGΑ is genetic. HFs do not “die” in ΑGΑ affected regions they simply get smaller every cycle.

I was referring to transplantation of miniaturised hairs to areas of the body that are both highly vascular and of limited tension and yet once transplanted the HF’s continue to miniaturise.

I dont think Androgenetic Alopecia being genetic is confirmed, or proven in any way. Are there confirmed bio-markers that have been established that show male pattern baldness is inherited if you have A, B or C?

Maybe it is considered "genetic" because scalp tension, bone structure and shape, or circulation issues to the follicle, or fat layer deterioration can be similar to the father who had the same issues?

I'm no expert by any means, but I'm not buying the "certain hair follicles are pre-determined to be androgen sensitive, and miniaturize over time" theory.

Way too many variables that discredit this line of thinking in my opinion.

Completely eliminating T, and DHT is not enough to reverse the problem. Only slow it down.That shows there is more to it.
It IS reversible in HRT patients however, so there is a "cure" possible......

 

[HelpMyHair!!]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5782443/#!po=2.77778

Here is a study, done on Androgenic Alopecia males, by injecting botox into the scalp to relieve tension.
Very small study, but very interesting results.....

 

[Catagen]

I dont think Androgenetic Alopecia being genetic is confirmed, or proven in any way. Are there confirmed bio-markers that have been established that show male pattern baldness is inherited if you have A, B or C?

Maybe it is considered "genetic" because scalp tension, bone structure and shape, or circulation issues to the follicle, or fat layer deterioration can be similar to the father who had the same issues?

I'm no expert by any means, but I'm not buying the "certain hair follicles are pre-determined to be androgen sensitive, and miniaturize over time" theory.

Way too many variables that discredit this line of thinking in my opinion.

Completely eliminating T, and DHT is not enough to reverse the problem. Only slow it down.That shows there is more to it.
It IS reversible in HRT patients however, so there is a "cure" possible......

Its not well understood how it reverses in HRT patients, it doesn't reverse in some individuals, especially in those who were losing hair for a longer time.

 

[Catagen]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5782443/#!po=2.77778

Here is a study, done on Androgenic Alopecia males, by injecting botox into the scalp to relieve tension.
Very small study, but very interesting results.....

Could you use muscle relaxant medication to relieve tension on the scalp? It should work according to scalp tension theory.

 

[HelpMyHair!!]

Could you use muscle relaxant medication to relieve tension on the scalp? It should work according to scalp tension theory.

Hmmm, thats an interesting idea. I'm wondering if its actually "tension", or bad circulation, or deterioration of the fat layer.

No clue which one it is/could be, but there HAS to be something to this. No way its strictly androgen sensitivity , and short-circuiting hair follicles in the same pattern every time IMO.

 

[Catagen]

Hmmm, thats an interesting idea. I'm wondering if its actually "tension", or bad circulation, or deterioration of the fat layer.

No clue which one it is/could be, but there HAS to be something to this. No way its strictly androgen sensitivity , and short-circuiting hair follicles in the same pattern every time IMO.

Also how is tension defined, by slightly contracted muscles? I saw a study where women had non-patterned frontal hair loss due to botox injections for wrinkles.

Bad circulation could be addressed with lowering your blood pressure or doing some other non-proven methods.

Fat layer deterioration, have any more info on this and how to reverse it?