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That would explain the huge shedding people experience when they stop massaging their scalp for even a day. Rebound effect?
Scalp Massages And Their Potential For Regrowth
- Thread starter MyThinningConfidence
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That would explain the huge shedding people experience when they stop massaging their scalp for even a day. Rebound effect?
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I haven't heard of anyone else having this rebound effect but it has happened to me although it takes about a week of no massages, the 3 times I've stopped massaging my head I've had major sheds with hundreds of hairs coming out in the shower and my scalp starts to show a bit again, it typically recovers within 3-4 weeks though. No impact on the long blonde vellus hairs though, they are usually pretty consistent. Actually I had a shed fairly recently since I stopped massaging and rolling for about a week due to being sick with the flu, I can usually get by a day or two of skipping but any longer and I start shedding over the next couple of days.
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There is kenogen and exogen phases in normal hair cycle, this is the key of sheding hairs with massage, that without dude improve blood circulation
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I’ve been doing a fair amount of research on scalp massages / mechanical stimulation as a hair loss treatment and think that it has a lot of potential. Rob at Perfect Hair Health does a great job of building a scientific case around it along with recommended diet and lifestyle changes that help stop and reverse hair loss.
I started on the Big 3 in summer 2013 when I had aggressive crown loss and looking at old pictures, some mild frontal hair loss. I was an extremely good responder with major regrowth. While my crown is still thin (not noticeable really unless you examine closely), I maintained on the Big 3 for 5 years and would say I’m currently a NW1.5 or NW2.
This summer I started doing research into scarring / fibrosis / calcification as the culprit behind hair loss and think there’s solid evidence supporting that theory. I’ve been doing 2x 20 minute scalp massages per day for the past two months and expect to continue for the next 6-8 months. Like others I started hearing crunching during the massages a few weeks in so hoping that’s a positive sign.
I’m still using finasteride and topical minoxidil (stopped Nizoral as giving up shampoo is one of the recommended lifestyle changes) but if my crown thickens up I’ll plan on quitting minoxidil first and then finasteride later. That’ll likely be a few months down the road and I’ll be watching my hair very closely when/if I do transition off. If I end up not losing any ground after the transition, that’ll be a strong case for mechanical stimulation as a way to prevent and reverse hair loss.
I started on the Big 3 in summer 2013 when I had aggressive crown loss and looking at old pictures, some mild frontal hair loss. I was an extremely good responder with major regrowth. While my crown is still thin (not noticeable really unless you examine closely), I maintained on the Big 3 for 5 years and would say I’m currently a NW1.5 or NW2.
This summer I started doing research into scarring / fibrosis / calcification as the culprit behind hair loss and think there’s solid evidence supporting that theory. I’ve been doing 2x 20 minute scalp massages per day for the past two months and expect to continue for the next 6-8 months. Like others I started hearing crunching during the massages a few weeks in so hoping that’s a positive sign.
I’m still using finasteride and topical minoxidil (stopped Nizoral as giving up shampoo is one of the recommended lifestyle changes) but if my crown thickens up I’ll plan on quitting minoxidil first and then finasteride later. That’ll likely be a few months down the road and I’ll be watching my hair very closely when/if I do transition off. If I end up not losing any ground after the transition, that’ll be a strong case for mechanical stimulation as a way to prevent and reverse hair loss.
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Rob was originally where I got the idea from the massages and he does a far better job at explaining things than I do, a lot of this page is primarily the research I did independent of Rob's site to test the legitimacy of scalp massages as an effective hair growth option. I wanted to believe it worked but it seemed far too simplistic to actually regrow hair but I was pleased to see there was actually quite a lot of scientific backing to it.
I could never do the recommended 2x20 minute massages, primarily due to being depressed and not really having a lot of energy to do a lot, balding really puts your mood on a low so staying consistent I hard. I instead just opted for a minimum of 5 minutes a day massaging my scalp and put more in if it felt necessary. I tried to treat it objectively using scalp pliability and the sounds of the crunches as a way to measure how much I should massage. Here's a picture of how loose my scalp is, it's even looser after finasteride. Rob still recommends the 2x20 minute ones though and I think I can see why after starting finasteride on top. You really need to break up that fibrosis a lot with the massages as it slowly reforms back to that hardened with limited bloodflow. I can't say that last sentence is actually the case but there is an obvious difference in scalp quality before and after a massage and ideally you want your scalp in this better condition for as much as the day as possible for optimal blood and nutrient supply to the follicles. Very interestingly I noticed the state of my scalp when jumping on finasteride was awfully similar to how it was after intensely massaging but with just less effort, I'll be contacting Rob in the next few days hoping he'll be able to shed some more light on that. I've been on finasteride for 3 weeks now.
I would highly recommend not tapering off The Big 3 if you want to avoid any tragedies, Nizoral you could easily give up since the regrowth properties of daily use alone are still only as effective as 2% minoxidil which is fine but not a great deal. Only worthwhile if you're experiencing seborrheic dermatitis alongside balding or if you have spare cash and want to go all out. If you taper off of minoxidil you will almost definitely shed as the hairs grown are reliant on it, Rob himself had a fairly bad shed tapering off minoxidil when he moved to massages years ago. I think it took him a few months for it to grow back but the end results was better than minoxidil. Minoxidil is actually pretty bad at regrowing hair alone and should only really be used in conjunction with microneedling treatments. Finasteride will also help prevent the balding process with a lot less work and I personally found it to be a good choice to add to my regime just 3 weeks ago to help maintain what I've regrown. Based on my research it's incredibly safe to use and the potential side effects aren't that bad, especially considering some other drugs out there. That said I've experienced zero side effects myself. There isn't really a natural alternative to finasteride since the side effects come directly from inhibiting DHT, not the drug itself. The main way to get around this is by indirectly inhibiting DHT and there are a lot of ways to do this but it's likely going to require a lot more work on your end along with inferior results to finasteride alone. If you're not experiencing sides on finasteride I'd definitely stick to it but you could easily remove nizoral if wanted and slowly taper off minoxidil to cut down on costs.
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Doing 2x20 minute massages is definitely tough. Majority of the time I’m able to fit them in but a couple of days a week I can only fit in 1 massage. That’s impressive how loose your scalp is...I’m definitely not there yet but hopefully in a few months. Will be interesting to see what Rob says regarding finasteride and scalp effect.
Going off the Big 3 is definitely going to be a tough choice. While Nizoral isn’t hard (already been off for about two months), more worrisome will be Mionxidil and Finasteride. My view is that if the theory behind scalp massages is correct - that chronic inflammation results in fibrosis and calcification which then results in miniaturizing of hair, then I can at least go off Minoxidil. If fibrosis and calcification is reversed, then the main mechanism which Minoxidil works (increasing blood flow) won’t be needed anymore since normal blood circulation will be restored to the scalp. I’ll only plan on transitioning off Minoxidil if my crown thickens and will be expecting a shed.
Regarding going off Finasteride, that’s the scary one especially since like you I haven’t experienced any sides so there isn’t much upside for me to transition off other than cost. However, if the root cause of hair loss comes from chronic inflammation and the lifestyle and diet changes recommended by Rob does stop chronic inflammation, then theoretically won’t need Finasteride to prevent future hair loss. It’ll probably be 6-12 months before I transition off Finasteride and that’ll only be if I transition off Minoxidil successfully.
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I wouldn't say the extra bloodflow from minoxidil wouldn't be needed anymore as minoxidil bolsters bloodflow to the follicles anywhere on the body, essentially creating hairs that would have never existed in the first place. You can apply it to grow facial hair, chest hair and even knuckle hair reportedly by someone on Reddit who accidentally got Rogaine all over their hands during application. I have no idea if it's legitimate but the premise is the same that minoxidil will grow hair anywhere, even in places where it typically wouldn't grow so well.
Theoretically if minoxidil's regrowth mechanism was primarily bloodflow then sufficient massaging would be able to retain, or at least minimize the shedding of the hair when tapering off minoxidil. I think the realistic expectation though would be some shedding going off min and then regrowing hair slowly over the months following. There isn't really enough information around this situation in particular and everyone is different so you're sort of playing with fire here. It's a hard choice so you'd need to weigh the benefit of quitting minoxidil versus the potential for hair shedding.
The worst part about minoxidil and finasteride is the fact that it's pretty much a lifelong subscription and once you start taking one of them you can't really quit without losing basically all the benefits you've received from them in the previously.
I believe hair loss is a symptom to something else not functioning well in our body. That can include:
This video below from Dr. John Bergman give a better understanding and solutions for hair loss.
- Liver disorder
- Auto immune system disorder
- Skin/scalp inflammation
- Poor diet (lack of sulfur,zinc for hair growth)
- Lack of sun exposure (for vit.D)
- Physical/Chemical/Emotional stresses.
This video below from Dr. John Bergman give a better understanding and solutions for hair loss.
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The reason for doing scalp messages is to cause acute inflammation, so rubbing in an anti-inflammatory agent while doing the massage seems counter productive
Is there any reason to cause acute inflammation? What do you expect to gain from it? Can massage cause acute inflammation?
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The things you listed do have an impact on hairloss but each one is rather minimal, I have heard some good things about topical application of garlic through some anecdotal experiences I found, supposedly from the zinc but I've never found a study that actually covers it. It might do something very minimal in terms of regrowth but the use of garlic/onion is most likely broscience heavy.
The idea of acute inflammation is the exact same as microneedling, in it's most basic form it increases bloodflow to the hair follicle bloodflow = follicle growth = hair
Some info I've just got from searching "sulfur for hair"
Sulfur is often referred to as one of the building blocks of hair, with good reason. Our hair is comprised of a durable protein called keratin, which is high in sulfur content. ... Lastly, sulfur also has been linked to treating, relieving, and decreasing the occurrences of psoriasis, dandruff, eczema, and folliculitis.
You may trigger acute inflammation on your scalp, but consider where your body get the building materials for your hair if your diet lack of those nutrients.
Onion/garlic contain lots of sulfur (and zinc also.)
Sulfur is often referred to as one of the building blocks of hair, with good reason. Our hair is comprised of a durable protein called keratin, which is high in sulfur content. ... Lastly, sulfur also has been linked to treating, relieving, and decreasing the occurrences of psoriasis, dandruff, eczema, and folliculitis.
You may trigger acute inflammation on your scalp, but consider where your body get the building materials for your hair if your diet lack of those nutrients.
Onion/garlic contain lots of sulfur (and zinc also.)
I've read Rob's writings as well. Yet only he and the other guy promoting Rob's website (JD Moyer) had significant results. Scalp massages can be done by anyone regardless of age and it's free. So why can't I find tons of success stories of people that stopped hairloss or regrew some of their hair back? I'm not talking about testimonials on Rob's website, I'm talking about success stories on forums and message boards such as this. There just aren't any.
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Likely because it's only helping fix part of the issue, I wouldn't expect to get too far solely on just scalp massages. For the majority of people you need to attack balding at a multitude of angles if you're hoping to get anywhere. The Big 3 plus derma rolling is a good example of this since you're literally doing 4 different things to help give you the best odds combating hairloss. I've only been able to find a few people who had regrowth with a cosmetic benefit with solely scalp massages and it wasn't anything dramatic but it was an okay increase. The majority of people I've found only get these thin white vellus hairs that grow to a decent length although have virtually zero cosmetic benefit since you can only see them in very specific lighting. A lot of it is theoretical without sufficient long term studies but there is a good amount of science and reasoning that it should have some benefit in terms of hair growth.
It's also worth noting that it can be difficult to find success stories online at times, I was unable to to find anyone who had regrowth with solely microneedling which has been proven in studies to be more effective than minoxidil when used alone. It wasn't until I started stalking some randoms profile and found out he only micro needled in the end that people have had success. I later found a couple more too but the point is they didn't really show up until I stopped looking for some time.
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I don’t disagree with you skepticism which is why I’m not ditching Finasteride or Minoxidil at this point.
As to the lack of success stories from scalp massages on forums like these, a logical explanation is that they aren’t effective. However, my counter would be that the recommended approach is hard to follow and therefore few have tried it. Two 20 minute scalp massages per day is a major time commitment and the massage technique is very specific. Couple that with needing up to 10 months to see results and it’s understandable why we don’t see more anecdotes about its success.
I’m not advocating the approach yet, I just think the science behind it makes sense and am experimenting on myself.
A little update on my end:
Perhaps I was wrong about the crunching sound during the massage. The sounds/feeling definitely were originating from my finger tips, and not my scalp. I couldn't recreate it with my knuckles or palm. This isn't to discredit massages though. I still believe that they have the same potential to aid in the fight against hair loss.
Perhaps I was wrong about the crunching sound during the massage. The sounds/feeling definitely were originating from my finger tips, and not my scalp. I couldn't recreate it with my knuckles or palm. This isn't to discredit massages though. I still believe that they have the same potential to aid in the fight against hair loss.
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Thanks for the input, that said the crunches definitely originate from the scalp from my observation. I've also noticed since I've jumped on finasteride my scalp has been much softer and looser and the crunches have been harder to achieve.
Awhile ago I reached out about the scalp massages to someone who is much more educated than I, it was the creator of this hypothesis. They don't have a definite answer to the crunches but here was their take.
"Thanks for reaching out. It’s a great question, and one that’s not always the easiest to answer. I think the evidence tends to suggest that the crunches we sometimes hear from massaging are more likely edema (swelling), and less likely the breaking up of fibrotic tissue. This is mainly because morphologically, fibrotic tissue doesn’t typically detach from healthy tissues and produce noise when manipulated. Rather, it’s the acute inflammation from the massages that promotes anagen-associated growth factors which then help attenuate / metabolize part of that fibrotic tissue as the skin remodels."
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If this anectote can help with the presence of hands on the scalp ..
My new hairdresser told me "it's strange you have more hair on this side", it's the left side, I always play with my hair with my left hand, every day. And I saw that, I catch my hair more easily on this area than all the others above the scalp. This is where there is the most thickness.
I just play with the hair, no pressure on the scalp, and they seem less falling, a slight stimulation helps.
My new hairdresser told me "it's strange you have more hair on this side", it's the left side, I always play with my hair with my left hand, every day. And I saw that, I catch my hair more easily on this area than all the others above the scalp. This is where there is the most thickness.
I just play with the hair, no pressure on the scalp, and they seem less falling, a slight stimulation helps.
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My hairloss started and is worse on one side. This is common.