Saw Palmetto, and other vitamins

[markelbentley]

I just got a bottle of 240 mg saw palmetto. I read somewhere that the beta sitosterol in saw palmetto was the main DHT inhibiting ingredient. Will any bottle of saw palmetto work or do i have to find one with certain amounts of this beta-sitosterol. Also how what dosage should i take. Also how many mg of MSM and Green tea?

 

[viperfish]

There is no real support showing saw palmetto's effectiveness for hairloss taken internally. Maybe some slight support for using it as a topical (questionable). Your wasting your time taking saw palmetto. If your gonna use saw palmetto you might as well go get propecia!

 

[Red Rose]

There are several studies showing that SP inhibits DHT and/or blocks androgen receptors in other tissues that are affected by DHT.

There is far more evidence that Saw Palmetto CAN work for hair loss than there is that it can't.

 

[Whoome?]

If ya really wanna try saw, where ever you go make sure you read the label and it states that its standardized to contain 85-95% fatty acids /sterols. Thats the active ingrendient

 

[HairlossTalk]

There are several studies showing that SP inhibits DHT and/or blocks androgen receptors in other tissues that are affected by DHT.

There is far more evidence that Saw Palmetto CAN work for hair loss than there is that it can't.

Please provide this evidence. In your description please explain why there are over 100 studies showing SP effective with DHT in the prostate but zero successful studies showing it effective with DHT and hair loss on the scalp. The irony of this must be sufficiently explained away in order for your explanation to be solid. Look forward to it, as I am sure you made the above statement after hours of research, rather than just parrotting something you heard someone say who also had done none

Try to understand there are a ton of things that "inhibit DHT". That does not mean they inhibit the correct form *cough*sawpalmetto*cough* to a significant enough extent to affect hair loss. Saw Palmetto failed miserably in a study to successfully reduce circulating DHT levels in the blood when taken orally. Its possible this is not necessary for the Prostate to be helped, but all evidence available shows that this is necessary for hair loss to be stopped or reversed.

The bottom line is, we don't know for sure, but I have found over 6 years of watching people "err on the side of assuming it DOES work" that this was the wrong thing to assume. They saw no results, only shed like wild, and ultimately dropped it for Finasteride. So this is the position I feel is most wise to take when giving advice.
HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

Please also read this article - click here ---> Saw Palmetto

BTW this thread is being moved to the appropriate section of the forum with unproven and experimental treatments.

 

[markelbentley]

thanks for the info. actually i read a lot of positive threads about SP on other forums. Im already on the big 3, but just wanted to make sure i was doing everything. I guess more isnt always better.

 

[mvpsoft]

I took saw palmetto for years for prostate, and I kept losing my hair. After two months on the big three (except I replaced finasteride with dutasteride after one month when I found out it is more effective), my shedding has now stopped. Hopefully I'll see some regrowth.

For me, saw palmetto had zero effect on combatting hair loss.

 

[Armando Jose]

If serenoa repens is used topically it could be useful.
Theses studies are not concluyents, but it seem indicate a good direction.
Armando

A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial to determine the effectiveness of botanically derived inhibitors of 5-alpha-reductase in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia.
Prager N, Bickett K, French N, Marcovici G.
Clinical Research and Development Network, Aurora, CO,
USA.
J Altern Complement Med 2002 Apr;8(2):143-52

P. Morganti, Fabrizi G, James B, et al. "Effect of
Gelatin-Cystine and Serenoa Repens Extract on Free
Radicals Level and Hair Growth," Journal of Applied
Cosmetology, 1998;16:57-64.

 

[Red Rose]

Please provide this evidence. In your description please explain why there are over 100 studies showing SP effective with DHT in the prostate but zero successful studies showing it effective with DHT and hair loss on the scalp

If there are no studies proving that it works for hair loss, then it doesn't mean that its proves that it can't work for hair loss :!:

 

[HairlossTalk]

No offense but that is the dumbest logic I have ever heard.

There's no proof that pissing on your own head wont stop hair loss either. So go do it.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[grinja the ninja]

I have been on SP for nearly three months, so if I am going to see some improvement it should happen soon (minimum 3 months for any treatment due to hair cycling). I am going to wait until the end of 4 months.

However I am a bit spooked by the studies showing that it doesn't seem to reduce plasma levels of DHT. This doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't work, as it might be the 5ar in your scalp that locally produces DHT and so all you need is free testosterone making it to your scalp.

For example, if SP works well on the prostate but no where else, couldn't it allow more free testosterone to reach your scalp as it is not being reduced at the prostate??? Speculation obviously, until we really know how it works.

People still seem unsure of how the crap actually works, is it the fatty acids or the beta-sitosterol? :roll:

I am still willing to try it topically although I am getting jittery taking it orally, still shedding...I think...

I'm too spooked to take propecia as I believe you can almost always find a plant based way to treat most problems without resorting to synthetics with uncertain side effects.

Anyway, I would love to hear more anecdotal evidence that SP has actually worked for people, if its out there.....Of course we would all love access to a cheap, non-drug company treatment that was shown to work - but there seems too much doubt about it for the moment. Damn.

 

[HairlossTalk]

I took saw palmetto for years for prostate, and I kept losing my hair. After two months on the big three (except I replaced finasteride with dutasteride after one month when I found out it is more effective), my shedding has now stopped.

This reflects nearly 6 years worth of Saw Palmetto reports by hundreds of users. I don't know where all these posts are that show people having success on saw palmetto *alone* because we have never seen one.

For me, saw palmetto had zero effect on combatting hair loss.

You and me both. I used it for quite some time by itself before I started on propecia. Nothing but shedding, lost time, and lost hair. Propecia almost immediately stopped the hair loss when I switched to it.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

However I am a bit spooked by the studies showing that it doesn't seem to reduce plasma levels of DHT.

Exactly. This is the reason it was not shown to be effective for hair loss, according to those who are far more intelligent than myself. I appreciate that you're willing to try something unproven and see how it works for you. I can respect that. Why? Because you are aware of the data and you're not in denial like mister Rose is about it. If it does work for you, please let us know. And thank you for not having blinders on your eyes while doing so. That is called intelligence. Good luck!

I sat at the desk of a woman who ran one of the only hair loss saw palmetto studies on the planet - Angela Christiano at Columbia University in New York City. She looked me straight in the eyes and said "The stuff did absolutely nothing". If you want to argue, Rose, argue with her. She knows way more about why it does not work than you do, or I do.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Whoome?]

Study A: Human prostatic steroid 5 alpha-reductase isoforms--a comparative study of selective inhibitors.

This study suggests that Finistride (active ingredient of Propecia) only inhibited the Type 2 form of 5 alpha reductase where Saw Palmetto extract inhibited both type 1 and 2 forms of 5 alpha-reductase and was more potent than Fenistride.

AUTHOR
Iehlé C; Délos S; Guirou O; Tate R; Raynaud JP; Martin PM

JOURNAL
J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol, 54: 5-6, 1995 Sep, 273-9

ABSTRACT
The present study describes the independent expression of the type 1 and 2 isoforms of human 5 alpha-reductase in the baculovirus-directed insect cell expression system and the selectivity of their inhibition. The catalytic properties and kinetic parameters of the recombinant isozymes were consistent with published data. The type 1 isoform displayed a neutral (range 6-8) pH optimum and the type 2 isoform an acidic (5-6) pH optimum. The type 2 isoform had higher affinity for testosterone than did the type 1 isoform (Km = 0.5 and 2.9 microM, respectively). Finasteride and turosteride were selective inhibitors of the type 2 isoform (Ki (type 2) = 7.3 and 21.7 nM compared to Ki (type 1) = 108 and 330 nM, respectively). 4-MA and the lipido-sterol extract of Serenoa repens (LSESr) markedly inhibited both isozymes (Ki (type 1) = 8.4 nM and 7.2 micrograms/ml, respectively; Ki (type 2) = 7.4 nM and 4.9 micrograms/ml, respectively). The three azasteroids were competitive inhibitors vs substrate, whereas LSESr displayed non-competitive inhibition of the type 1 isozyme and uncompetitive inhibition of the type 2 isozyme. These observations suggest that the lipid component of LSESr might be responsible for its inhibitory effect by modulating the membrane environment of 5 alpha-reductase. Partially purified recombinant 5 alpha-reductase type 1 activity was preserved by the presence of lipids indicating that lipids can exert either stimulatory or inhibitory effects on human 5 alpha-reductase.



Study B: Testosterone metabolism in primary cultures of human prostate epithelial cells and fibroblasts.

This Study shows that Finistride and 4-MA inhibited the formation of some testostrone Metabolites (including DHT), where as Saw Palmetto inhibited the formation of all the Testostrone metabolites studied.

AUTHOR
Délos S; Carsol JL; Ghazarossian E; Raynaud JP; Martin PM

JOURNAL
J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol, 55: 3-4, 1995 Dec, 375-83

ABSTRACT
We compare testosterone (T) metabolism in primary cultures of epithelial cells and fibroblasts separated from benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and prostate cancer tissues. In all cultures, androstenedione (delta 4) formed by oxidation of T by 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17 beta-HSD) represented 80% of the metabolites recovered. The amounts of 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT), formed by reduction of T by 5 alpha-reductase (5 alpha-R), were small: 5 and 2% (BPH) and 8 and 15% (adenocarcinoma) for epithelial cells and fibroblasts, respectively. Northern blot analysis of total RNA from epithelial cells (BPH or adenocarcinoma) attributed the reductive activity to the 5 alpha-reductase type 1 isozyme and oxidative activity to the 17 beta-HSD type 2. In cancer fibroblasts, only little 17 beta-HSD type 2 mRNA was detected. The 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors, 4-MA (17 beta-(N,N-diethyl)carbamoyl-4-methyl-4-aza-5 alpha-androstan-3-one) and finasteride, inhibited DHT formation with a preferential action of 4-MA on epithelial cells (BPH or adenocarcinoma) and of finasteride on fibroblasts from adenocarcinoma. Neither inhibitor acted on delta 4 formation. On the other hand, the lipido-sterol extract of Serenoa repens (LSESr, Permixon, Saw Palmetto) inhibited the formation of all the T metabolites studied [IC50 S = 40 and 200 micrograms/ml (BPH) and 90 and 70 micrograms/ml (adenocarcinoma) in epithelial cells and fibroblasts, respectively]. These results have important therapeutic implications when selecting appropriate treatment options for BPH.



Saw Palmetto

Study C: The effect of Permixon on androgen receptors.

This study shows that Saw Palmetto extract was able to effectively reduce Binding of Testostrone and DHT to their receptors on various tissues.

AUTHOR
el-Sheikh MM; Dakkak MR; Saddique A

JOURNAL
Acta Obstet Gynecol Scand, 67: 5, 1988, 397-9

ABSTRACT
Permixon, the liposterolic extract of the plant Serenoa Repens is a recently introduced drug for the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia. The effect of Permixon on dihydrotestosterone and testosterone binding by eleven different tissue specimens was tested. The drug reduced the mean uptake of both hormones by 40.9% and 41.9% respectively in all tissue specimens. Since hirsutism and virilism are among other gynecological problems caused either by excessive androgen stimulation or excess endorgan response, we suggest that Permixon could be a useful treatment in such conditions and recommend further investigations of the possible therapeutic values of the drug in gynecological practice.

 

[Whoome?]

although I would not suggest using Saw as an alternative to finasteride, but I see no harm in adding it just incase.

 

[HairlossTalk]

It's important to think when you read these things. And ask questions.

This study suggests that Finistride (active ingredient of Propecia) only inhibited the Type 2 form of 5 alpha reductase where Saw Palmetto extract inhibited both type 1 and 2 forms of 5 alpha-reductase and was more potent than Fenistride.

More potent at what? Inhibiting the other type of 5 alpha reductase enzyme. How do we know that is the key for hair growth? We don't. No study exists showing that inhibition of the other type will lead to stopping hair loss. Several studies show that inhibition of the one Propecia inhibits will do just that. If there were 50 types of 5alpha reductase, and 6 of them related to hair loss, it wouldn't matter if you inhibited all the 46 of wrong ones. There is a specificity to all of this.

One cannot just say "Its a DHT inhibitor, therefore it is a hair loss treatment". There is more involved. That is why snake oil salesmen make such a killing by including SP in their fraud products. And almost all of them do it. Going by that definition however, there is no such thing as a snake oil as long as it has Saw Palmetto in it!

Im not a big sell on Prostate studies. These aren't hair loss studies. Thats the major thing missing here.

Lots of things are proven to inhibit DHT. There are a million other factors involved. Vehicle. Serum Reduction. Half Life in the body. It goes on and on and on. People can load me up with a thousand Prostate studies and it wont make that voice of Angela Christiano go away in my head where she actually did a 6 month study with Saw Palmetto and *hair loss*. They even took photographs of the follicles to see if there were any changes at the follicle root level. She said to me flat out "Saw Palmetto does not work".

HairLossTalk.com

 

[oni]

Please listen to Hairloss Talk.

I am getting tired of reading this same type of thread.

I think if you are going to post on this forum please be as kind to read the info available on the site

It's the best site I have found and it only deals in facts.

If you like fiction go to a book store

 

[Red Rose]

Then don't click on a thread entitled "saw palmetto and other vitamins" - it doesn't strike me as rocket science :hairy:

 

[BadHairDecade]

I almost fell for the SP stuff. I read somewhere that it acts like Finasteride. After I did some research and went to just about every hairloss forum it was clear to me that there wasn't enough evidence to support the claim of SP as an effective treatment for hair loss.
I couldn't find one post where someone claimed SP has helped them grow hair.
Then I started on the big three and grew a bunch or hair back.

If it truly worked the way finasteride worked. You'd hear plenty of people complaining of side effects. It can't work the same way and have no reported side effects just because it's "natural" That's just silly.
When you alter hormone levels some people are going to experience side effects. If you see something that says "works like Finasteride without the side effects" you can be assured it's a SCAM.