RIKEN Announcement: Succeeded in Developing Tech for HF Regenerative Medicine: Study to be Published Feb 10

[trialAcc]

Actually you can, you are not certain it will work, but many times it just does.
Treatments for androgenic alopecia have a hard time being consistent between mice and humans because this is a disease that just doesen't show in them.
However, Tsuji's research is about hair cloning, and not some treatment for Androgenetic Alopecia, so i think there's a higher chance that findings will be consistent.
Remember that if a molecule doesen't show efficacy, there's not much you can do, but with hair cloning they will be able to adjust and gradually find the optimal process.

That's not the reason that treatments are not consistent between mice and humans, it's because mouse models are constructed to replicate the expression of single genes or symptoms and then to test for the efficacy of that single thing.

When this translates to humans, that single thing might not be sufficient to reverse the condition alone or the targeting of that single thing might not be achievable without toxic or unintended downstream effects. Androgenic alopecia is a perfect example of why these things don't translate well because it's a very polygenic condition that can be targeted from multiple angles. All of the prior mouse models that "cured" baldness or regrew hair probably did so quite well when JUST the follicle or AR is targeted on the mouse, but the issue is that you can't target JUST the follicles on the human body without effecting things systematically and destroying other body systems. Otherwise you could just get the strongest topical AA possible and you'd basically have a cure, infact I think we already have examples of this in some of the strongest AAs on the market used for things like cancers. I'm sure one of the more experienced/knowledgeable posters here could quote you some very potent AAs that would essentially cure hair loss (not regrowth), but can't be used because they can't be used in doses needed without going systematic.

 

[frank33]

Well the problem with mice study is that the mice is used have modified genes, like no immune defense and things like that, then you can do almost anything do a mouse and things will happen.

But since humans have immune defense, then its quite hard to work around. Because the immune defense does what it can do remove what attacks the body, the body even starts to compensate for on going treatments. That is why its more interesting to see long term treatments and clinical trails, so we know if the body starts to fight and compensate for the treatment.

And when overcome the immune defense problem, then there is the blood flow, will humans be able to re-create that blood flow?

Many here have big dreams about high density hair, and it have shown that if you just re-create high density hair again, then it will die out because of the lack of blood flow.

I'm all in for RIKEN way to move forward.

But i'm simply more interested in the long term, and if they actually can make it work, this is also why i'm more of a fan boy to the Replicel approach with regeneration. To me that seems to be more approachable, than doing maybe 10.000 nylon strings into the scalp and hope for the best in the long term.

But let us see how it goes with RIKEN, and their first proof of concept in humans, or their first phase 1. Would be great with a 24 months study or more.

How could immune defense be a problem when you are using your own cells?
Mice used don't have modified genes, they modify them to undestand their relation with diseases, but this is not the case.
Again, no immune defense problem to overcome as long as you are using your own cells.
Blood flow doesen't seem to be a problem in hair transplants, not even in crazy Zarev's 12k+ FU

That's not the reason that treatments are not consistent between mice and humans, it's because mouse models are constructed to replicate the expression of single genes or symptoms and then to test for the efficacy of that single thing.

When this translates to humans, that single thing might not be sufficient to reverse the condition alone or the targeting of that single thing might not be achievable without toxic or unintended downstream effects.

These are some reasons why treatments don't work when tried on mice, but this does not deny that every treatment tried on mice doesen't have to fight with miniaturization and down regolated wnt pathway etc. caused by Androgenetic Alopecia which, i repeat once again, is a non existent condition in mice.
Just imagine trying to grow hair in a human without the disease!

 

[trialAcc]

How could immune defense be a problem when you are using your own cells?
Mice used don't have modified genes, they modify them to undestand their relation with diseases, but this is not the case.
Again, no immune defense problem to overcome as long as you are using your own cells.
Blood flow doesen't seem to be a problem in hair transplants, not even in crazy Zarev's 12k+ FU


These are some reasons why treatments don't work when tried on mice, but this does not deny that every treatment tried on mice doesen't have to fight with miniaturization and down regolated wnt pathway etc. caused by Androgenetic Alopecia which, i repeat once again, is a non existent condition in mice.
Just imagine trying to grow hair in a human without the disease!

It doesn't need to be existent in mice. They construct models around biomarkers that mimic the biomarkers in real disease.

 

[frank33]

It doesn't need to be existent in mice. They construct models around biomarkers that mimic the biomarkers in real disease.

And that's why they fail many times.
They will say: "this treatment upregulates wnt, this other reduces local dht by 60%", but they can't say how that treatment will work against the real disease.
Would you test a treatment for Alzheimer's disease in a healthy person? Well, maybe you wouldl be able to tell if the drug is able to reduce beta amyloid accumulation, but are you sure that this would be beneficial for the patient cognitive functions?

 

[Pls_NW-1]

am I the only one in this forum who actually has no idea?
i only come here to read updates. Whether it finally "works" No idea how, the main thing is new hair

Well I'm personally on this forum for treatment lol. I am 17yo and I highly doubt there will be any "cure" for this "disease".
From what I've seen in this year full of researching this condition, HRT and ADT seem like the only thing next to a "cure".

 

[Pls_NW-1]

I just want to make a point.

All - to - most companies aren't actually cloning hair, they multiply hair from scratch with the usage of stem cells -> regenerative medicine.

So in conclusion: the hair will just be like your natural hair, falling out due to androgens. I'm not willing to explain further, I think it is clearly obvious that you will have to stick further with AA's to maintain what you have, and re-do the procedure to cosmetically "have hair". And thats just a BIG IF, if it even works, on human.

The only thing which would help AndroGENETIC alopecia is something to affect the AR gene in the pilosebacous unit. But this won't happen; never. Thats too much Sci-Fi, even more than Tsuji's or Stemson's dream, to "cure" male pattern baldness.

I'm done.

 

[frank33]

I just want to make a point.

All - to - most companies aren't actually cloning hair, they multiply hair from scratch with the usage of stem cells -> regenerative medicine.

So in conclusion: the hair will just be like your natural hair, falling out due to androgens. I'm not willing to explain further, I think it is clearly obvious that you will have to stick further with AA's to maintain what you have, and re-do the procedure to cosmetically "have hair". And thats just a BIG IF, if it even works, on human.

The only thing which would help AndroGENETIC alopecia is something to affect the AR gene in the pilosebacous unit. But this won't happen; never. Thats too much Sci-Fi, even more than Tsuji's or Stemson's dream, to "cure" male pattern baldness.

I'm done.

No, they clone DHT resistant FU from the donor area. So just like transplated hair don't fall, this won't either.

 

[Pls_NW-1]

No, they clone DHT resistant FU from the donor area. So just like transplated hair don't fall, this won't either.

They CAN'T CLONE hair, thats why they had to redo their research, its about multiplying hair from scratch.

 

[frank33]

They CAN'T CLONE hair, thats why they had to redo their research, its about multiplying hair from scratch.

Not from scratch, they take DPC from your HF.
What is your definition of cloning?
Do you expect HF to reproduce themselves?
HF are organs made by 20 different cell types.

 

[frank33]

am I the only one in this forum who actually has no idea?
i only come here to read updates. Whether it finally "works" No idea how, the main thing is new hair

Don't worry, we just pretend to understand

 

[waynakyo]

Donations being sought for Riken clinical testing to cure baldness | The Asahi Shimbun: Breaking News, Japan News and Analysis

www.asahi.com

Very interestjng article
They need 4.8M Dollar.

The team is seeking 500 million yen ($4.8 million) in donations from companies and individuals. The money will be used not only for clinical testing on the safety of the hair transplant technology, but also for other trials, such as regenerating teeth.

“Transplanting follicles has the advantages of not being life-threatening and easily removable if something went wrong since it would be placed on the skin surface," said team leader Takashi Tsuji. "We are asking for support in our research and development because this is a problem concerning a wide part of the population and because this could lead to promoting a new industry from Japan.”

"They will first conduct clinical testing on bald men because the mechanism for that condition is better understood."


The safety of the technology has already been confirmed through testing on animals, and the team had gained approval to begin human clinical testing when its business partner could not proceed with development.

I think we should contact them through the Hair loss cure 2020 guy or the Follicle thought, and tell them if they commit the money to hair follicle only on bald men, we would chip in. Who is in? I know we may never see a return on this money, but listen these guys are part of a government agency, and have a technology with enormous potential, they are unlikely to steal the money and just go home.

What say you? Should I contact these guys?

 

[frank33]

I think we should contact them through the Hair loss cure 2020 guy or the Follicle thought, and tell them if they commit the money to hair follicle only on bald men, we would chip in. Who is in? I know we may never see a return on this money, but listen these guys are part of a government agency, and have a technology with enormous potential, they are unlikely to steal the money and just go home.

What say you? Should I contact these guys?

I'm in

 

[Roeysdomi]

I think we should contact them through the Hair loss cure 2020 guy or the Follicle thought, and tell them if they commit the money to hair follicle only on bald men, we would chip in. Who is in? I know we may never see a return on this money, but listen these guys are part of a government agency, and have a technology with enormous potential, they are unlikely to steal the money and just go home.

What say you? Should I contact these guys?

Pointless . They are not dumb.

the fact they want donation rather then invesment ( which i belive they can get easily) just show they have bigger plan then what we actually know.
hairloss cure is literely gold mine.
there is no limit to the amount of money you can make ! There are new balding ppl Each year . They already have a plan which they dont tell us. Im not sure whats the plan yet but its bigger then what we see.

 

[MrV88]

Pointless . They are not dumb.

the fact they want donation rather then invesment ( which i belive they can get easily) just show they have bigger plan then what we actually know.
hairloss cure is literely gold mine.
there is no limit to the amount of money you can make ! There are new balding ppl Each year . They already have a plan which they dont tell us. Im not sure whats the plan yet but its bigger then what we see.

Cloning organs like hearts, liver, etc that have transplantation lists of years. If this would be possible Banks will start soon giving loans for cloned organs etc. (Do you know Repo Men?)

Next stop cloned Bodies and/or parts, Military use etc.

 

[1919]

Pointless . They are not dumb.

the fact they want donation rather then invesment ( which i belive they can get easily) just show they have bigger plan then what we actually know.
hairloss cure is literely gold mine.
there is no limit to the amount of money you can make ! There are new balding ppl Each year . They already have a plan which they dont tell us. Im not sure whats the plan yet but its bigger then what we see.

I will say this. The fact that they are asking for donations suggests limited interest from investors.
E.g. the current study is not providing enough confidence to experts YET. Hence, we should tame our expectations.
A huge investor behind them would be a good indicator of a robust plan. So while Im banking on the clinical trials to turn the tables, the certainty of success is really up in the air at best.

 

[Pls_NW-1]

i wish elon musk would work on it. Just a week ago, Elon Musk reported in a clubhouse talk about the current state of research into Neuralink.

They are currently working on making monkeys with the chip play video games over their thoughts. That has not happened yet. This is a longer-term goal. However, one or the other monkey from a special institution already has the chip in the brain - and is "happy" with it, according to Musk. The chip will soon be tested on humans.

By the way
Stemson will start in 1.5 years

小黄书视频

www.guangzhoukj.com

Yes, it would be crazy if humanity hasn't solved hair loss within 20-30 years. I wouldn't mind it if we would be wiped out, such a useless race lol.

 

[kiwi666]

Yes, it would be crazy if humanity hasn't solved hair loss within 20-30 years. I wouldn't mind it if we would be wiped out, such a useless race lol.

Is there a way to just ignore / make invisible all your whining comments. You’re worse than a balding female

 

[pegasus2]

i wish elon musk would work on it. Just a week ago, Elon Musk reported in a clubhouse talk about the current state of research into Neuralink.

They are currently working on making monkeys with the chip play video games over their thoughts. That has not happened yet. This is a longer-term goal. However, one or the other monkey from a special institution already has the chip in the brain - and is "happy" with it, according to Musk. The chip will soon be tested on humans.

By the way
Stemson will start in 1.5 years

小黄书视频

www.guangzhoukj.com

Somebody get Musk on this. They are only seeking $4.8 million, and they already approval to begin clinical testing.

The team is seeking 500 million yen ($4.8 million) in donations from companies and individuals. The money will be used not only for clinical testing on the safety of the hair transplant technology, but also for other trials, such as regenerating teeth.

The safety of the technology has already been confirmed through testing on animals, and the team had gained approval to begin human clinical testing when its business partner could not proceed with development.

Donations being sought for Riken clinical testing to cure baldness | The Asahi Shimbun: Breaking News, Japan News and Analysis

www.asahi.com

I can see them getting 4.8MM pretty quickly. Since they've already received regulatory approval to begin, they have a chance to get the first trial done by the end of the year. I'm considering contacting them myself about investing.

 

[waynakyo]

I will say this. The fact that they are asking for donations suggests limited interest from investors.
E.g. the current study is not providing enough confidence to experts YET. Hence, we should tame our expectations.
A huge investor behind them would be a good indicator of a robust plan. So while Im banking on the clinical trials to turn the tables, the certainty of success is really up in the air at best.

From my direct experience with startups:
1- Investors are not like donors. They invest large sums (especially in a project like this) and yes, given the high uncertainty, they are unlikely to invest in a project like that.
2- Investors expect either to be issued shares immediately or have a convertible debt deal. Even if RIken was a private company (they are not) they would be stupid to give any shares for 4 million dollars if the chance of success is several billions. Which is why startups start with family friends.
3- Riken is NOT a private company, so they won't issue shares. They are up to make some deal with investors but it does not sound like the type of deal startup investors usually makes
4- Donors are people who care to spend for the good cause. Even if the chances are limited. No one at CVS stops and says will my $1 donation go for an effective cancer drug?

If I give 300 dollars, I don't think that in 2 years if Riken shuts down that I would feel I got robbed and fooled. I would feel I pitched in for the good cause. Clearly I am not saying put a 300, a $20 by the young folks is better than nothing.

 

[1919]

From my direct experience with startups:
1- Investors are not like donors. They invest large sums (especially in a project like this) and yes, given the high uncertainty, they are unlikely to invest in a project like that.
2- Investors expect either to be issued shares immediately or have a convertible debt deal. Even if RIken was a private company (they are not) they would be stupid to give any shares for 4 million dollars if the chance of success is several billions. Which is why startups start with family friends.
3- Riken is NOT a private company, so they won't issue shares. They are up to make some deal with investors but it does not sound like the type of deal startup investors usually makes
4- Donors are people who care to spend for the good cause. Even if the chances are limited. No one at CVS stops and says will my $1 donation go for an effective cancer drug?

If I give 300 dollars, I don't think that in 2 years if Riken shuts down that I would feel I got robbed and fooled. I would feel I pitched in for the good cause. Clearly I am not saying put a 300, a $20 by the young folks is better than nothing.

This is a great insight. I had not considered that Riken was not a private company. You are right 5 mil can be easily raised so such a deal would be disadvantageous. The conclusion I would draw from this is that asking for donations is not a surprising strategy like I had thought. It is research after all so Id wish this thread would stop being about blind speculation (im a hypocrite).