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Revivogen

Discussion in 'Men's General Hair Loss Discussions' started by Administrator, Apr 15, 2002.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I am guessing you have little understanding of mass transport so I will stick to empirical discussion. 5% minoxidil is more effective than 2% minoxidil because of the concentration more so than because of the total exposure (or total "dose").

    If you put 20 mg of drug on your scalp you do not get a dose of 20 mg. You get an exposure of 20 mg. Your dose will be dependant upon many factors, concentration being one of the most important.

    Choosing a wildly underdefined scenario for simplicity, if you applied 20 mg of chemical to a membrane in a solution of 2 ml over an area 50 square inches and achive a 5 mg penetration of the membrane (due to competing rate mechanisms such as evaporation of solvent or reaction) you would expect an alternate 20 mg of chemical applied to a membrane in a solution of 1 ml over the same area of 50 square inches to have closer to double the rate of penetration and reasonably expect a penetration of closer to 10 mg than to 5 mg as in the first case.

    Yes, I understand that this was a simple mistake on your part. I did not choose them, those products that I know little about were the topic of the post above mine and I used them as an arbitrary example, which I properly noted:

     
  2. dis

    dis Member

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    I am just wondering if someone is using the cream version of the spironolactone, could that hinder Revivogen from being absorbed if you apply the spironolactone first? I normally use generous amounts of the spironolactone cream to make sure that it gets passed my hair and onto my scalp.

    Lately I have been using Revivogen first and then the 5% spironolactone cream about 1 - 1.5 hours after applying Revivogen.
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Oh, BTW, sorry to open a post with, what appears to be in retrospect, bordering on an insult. I been doing that lately on the web, I think it's the Internet version of kicking the dog because the wife is being mean to me. Sorry, I don't even realize I'm doing it and it is upsetting to me to act in that way. I'll try to be more considerate :)
     
  4. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    Oh, I'm familiar with what you're saying, I just don't think it's all that relevant in this "real-world" situation.

    The fact that 5% minoxidil is more effective than 2% minoxidil (at the standard doses that are used, of course) is indeed an empirical observation, but your EXPLANATION for that effect is not! IMHO, the effect is due simply to the greater amount of the drug which is deposited on your scalp, not the difference in the concentrations of the starting solutions (see below for further comments on that subject).

    I don't really care much for the subtleties and nuances of "exposure" vs. "dose". I consider "dose" to be the total amount of the drug that gets applied to my scalp, regardless of concentration. Absorption is a separate issue.

    Yes, but what I'm trying to suggest to you is that those purely theoretical considerations don't necessarily mean all that much in the Real World of applying hairloss products to your scalp! Here's a simple example of what I'm talking about (and it's ONLY an example):

    2% Rogaine contains a lot more alchohol (and less propylene glycol) than 5% Rogaine. What do you think happens when you drop a milliliter of that stuff on your scalp? I'll tell you what happens: a lot of it (most of it?) quickly evaporates, causing the dissolved minoxidil to concentrate even more in the available PPG. In other words, whenever you use EITHER version, once the alcohol dries, you're left with a slurry of PPG with dissolved minoxidil sitting on your scalp, and it doesn't differ that much from one version to the other. By simply doubling the QUANTITY of the 2% version that you apply, the difference would shrink any more. When you look at it in that light, do you really think the fact that the original starting solutions sitting inside their bottles were 2% and 5% (respectively) makes much difference at all? Of course not.

    Theoretical discussions of what happens with different concentrations of chemicals across a membrane are all well and good, but sometimes the PRACTICAL real-world considerations like the above are more relevant.

    Bryan
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Bryan, you're wrong. You need to go get an independent opinion on this subject from somebody else, not me.

    If you believe that 5% minoxidil is more effective more because a larger dose is applied to your scalp and less because of the increased concentration then you are simply wrong. And "No," I now don't believe you understand mass transport, but maybe you just decided to gloss over it for some reason.

    Increased concentration of a topical drug is not a matter of theory, it is simply the way things work. I gave that example not to propose a theory but rather to try to illustrate the mechanism to you in a simplified format. It is also the way you breath (oxygen in and CO2 out) and the way nutrients pass into your bloodstream from your digestive tract and the way that toxins are removed by your liver and kidneys and the way that ALL chemicals enter your body through your skin etc. etc. etc. Partitioning coefficients, chemical potential, reactive transport mechanisms, electrical potential, equimolar diffusion, static potential, and Knudsen diffusion all play a part but I am mentioning these only for the sake of completeness.

    Take an example of a product that is familiar to you with what you might consider a less defined dose such as Nizoral. 2% Nizoral will have a different effect on your scalp than 1 % Nizoral. How much of either you put on your head is less important than the concentration, although both have an effect.

    That's not the way an ethanol PPG solution would react. This is a transient evaporation of a binary solution (considering the minoxidil as non-vol) and one component will not evaporate entirely whilst another remains entirely. It is a time dependant process, and since there is only one "plate" or "equilibrium stage" you will find that most of both the PPG and the ethanol will be in both the evaporate and the condensate, particluarly initially, and especially in consideration that there is a competing product stream (which is what we are concerned with) trying to remove the chemicals into the scalp by the aforementioned processes and no rafinate stream, despite the relative volatilities.
     
  6. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    Oops...a computer glitch. I didn't get the last part of your previous post, so I'll respond separately.

    Bryan
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    OK! Should we start a new thread somewhere else? This really isn't Revivogen related anymore. You're the mod, let me know!

    You know, I am kind of curious what these concentrations are. Let's put aside the proper mechanisms of phase equilibria/equilibrium processes, evaporation, phase partitioning, and diffusion etc.., and make this really simple (although incorrect extreme case that cannot happen). And let's say that the following things happen in order, the extreme case of what you are presenting, closest to your claim:

    1. NONE of the Eth - PPG - minoxidil penetrates the scalp, THEN

    2. ALL of the alcohol evaporates from the topical solution, THEN

    3. NONE of the PPG evaporates from the topical solution, THEN

    4. The PPG - minoxidil begins to penetrate the skin to the extent that it will.

    OK, even though things don't work this way even theoretically, you claim that because 5% minoxidil contains more alcohol that the final concentration of minoxidil in PPG will be the same despite the starting concentration.

    What is the concentration of EtOH in each of these two respective products that would make your claim valid? It's a REALLY big difference unless one of them contains almost no EtOH.

    Interesting discussion, thanks!
     
  8. hairtodaygonetomorrow

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    REVIVOGEN QUESTION

    Guys, I've been on Revivogen for almost 6 months now, and I'm very disappointed. I think my hair has gotten worse from the product... now I'm aware this could be a shedding stage, or something to that effect, but when I started, the hair on my head, (not crown or sides) was very thick, and it's now thinned considerably. My question is.... and I can't imagine this is the case, but could Revivogen contributed, or made my plight to keep my hair, WORSE? I've read this from other people, but not everyone stayed with the program for a full 6 months to a year. I'm considering discontinuing use. I questioned the products stamp of approval by this site, but did receive positive feedback results from the mods, based on independent studies, so I figured I'd keep on the program. Any thoughts?

    Thanks.
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: REVIVOGEN QUESTION

    If you are commited to topicals, I would contact Dr Lee for his consult skills. He is not that high on the ingredients in Revivigen obviously but has some alternatives for you to use.
     
  10. hairtodaygonetomorrow

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    How do I contact Dr. Lee, and "consult skills" sounds like I have to pay him?
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I believe there is a small fee for his consult (I think it is $35). If you access his website (http://www.minoxidil.com) there are details on how to do this. If you call, he will also chat with you on the process. He is good folks.

    Good luck.
     
  12. hairtodaygonetomorrow

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    I'm at the point where I think this fight is pretty pointless, but maybe I'll give it a shot. Thanks Brucelee.
     
  13. Dreamatek

    Dreamatek Member

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    Revivogen and L-arginine

    I just got off Propecia and I am using Revivogen morning and night. I also just got L-arginine (Natural Grow). Should I put that stuff on before or after Revivogen and how long should I wait between?

    I also started taking L-lysine, theres nothing but good things I heard about it. http://www.hairlosshelp.com/html/patentlysine.cfm
    Also taking MSM and Zinc. I'm taking a natural thyroid vitamen called Thyriod which will balance out my hormones that Propecia may have changed (I don't have a thyriod problem, already had a blood test).
    So Hopefully this will stop the increased shedding and out of Telogen Effluvium that Propecia has given me.

    I'm going to order spironolactone, got to fill out the Dr. Lee form for it though first. So I may just alternate Revivogen and spironolactone, one in the morning and one at night. Not sure the best solution for these topicals.
     
  14. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    I really respect your knowledge (I assume that you are indeed a chemist?) and I'm sure you know all the exquisite details of how molecules diffuse across membranes, but I still think you're assuming too much about the topical absorption of minoxidil. I think it's too complicated a process to assume that the concentration in the vehicle is the only thing that matters.

    Here's a simple example of what I mean: have you read the chapter on hairloss in Durk Pearson & Sandy Shaw's book "Life Extension"? They describe the interesting therapy that Durk had been using, which consisted of dissolving estrogen and testosterone esters in DMSO and applying it to the scalp. Here's what they say at one point:

    "The solvent used to deposit these hormone esters in the scalp must be low in toxicity, high in fat solvent power, able to rapidly penetrate the skin, and miscible (mutually soluble) with water. DMSO meets these requirements very well. The testosterone cypionate and estradiol dipropionate dissolve slowly in dry DMSO but precipitate out of solution when a small amount of water is added. This is exactly what happens when the solution is applied to your scalp. The DMSO carries the hormone esters through the dry waxy oily dead outer layer of skin. When it reaches the upper layer of living cells, however, their high water content causes the prompt precipitation of the hormone esters right where you want them. The DMSO soon spreads throughout your body, but most of the very hydrophobic hormone esters are left behind in the scalp where they belong."

    Do you see my point? Using the technique above, are you going to maintain that you couldn't deposit the same amount of those hormones by using a larger amount of a lower concentration in that DMSO vehicle? How do you know that there isn't a similar confounding process going on when you apply Rogaine?

    No, but I think it WOULD react that way to a lesser extent, especially given enough time (which might be the whole quibble point in this issue). Have you read the studies on the absorption of topical minoxidil from verious vehicles consisting of different ratios of ethanol and propylene glycol (I believe they're still right here on this site, in full)? If I recall correctly, they also pointed out that the alcohol could evaporate from such a binary solvent system, concentrating the minoxidil in the remaining PPG.

    Because I was curious about what you said, I did some little experiments of my own: I put a couple of mL of PPG (2.07 grams) and a couple mL of Everclear (1.62 grams) in a small beaker (total mixture: 3.69 grams). After a few minutes of vigorous stirring, the mix was down to 3.59 grams (evaporation of some of the alchohol, no doubt). Then I set the beaker down, uncovered, in a clean place at controlled room temperature. I _expected_ to find that after a period of time, the alcohol would evaporate, leaving just the 2.07 grams of PPG. But to my annoyance, after a couple of hours or so had gone by, the weight seemed to stabilize around the 2.52 gram level. But there was no more detectable odor of alcohol!

    I realized what must be happening: PPG is hygroscopic enough that it must be drawing water out of the air! To test THAT theory, I put another couple of mL of PPG (1.94 grams) in another shallow, open container, and set it aside. After another similar period of a couple of hours or so, the weight had increased to 2.3 grams. It had absorbed almost 20% of its weight in water from the air, and that increase was about the same as the discrepancy that I had seen in the first Everclear/PPG mix, which explains the somewhat confounding result I got in that first experiment. But in any event, I conclude that an alcohol/PPG mix _will_ slowly evaporate the alchohol, although I suppose the importance of that when applying Rogaine does in fact remain to be seen.

    Bryan
     
  15. marco

    marco New Member

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    Guys what is Telogen Effluvium?.....I'm currently taking propecia 3mg for about 4 years now and just recently about 2 months ago I started to experiencing some hair loss. I cant use minoxidil due to a bad experience with the product 4yrs ago so I'm a little concerned whith what I should use now Its been 4yrs and so many products have come out and I just dont know what to take I'm thinking you guys could suggest something. Thanks
     
  16. dis

    dis Member

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  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't know, and that's a very good point. Personally, I don't think you want to bet on the exception. DMSO is a very special substance that achieves mass transport in a manner that I think you should look up yourself rather than having me explain it. And yes, it is driven by concentration, only it is specialized in some of the steps by reactive complexes and multi-phase solubility of the complexes vs. the constituents. I could provide an exception even to the very specialized scenario you described above but it is rather complex, if you want to hold me to it I will start another thread exclusively for that purpose.

    And that told you nothing! Why didn't you just look at a phase diagram? I did! A single stage batch distillation will result in substantial evaporation of the PPG before nearly all of the EtOH has evaporated. Go look at a phase digram. Do you realize that you have no idea what water, PPG, or alcohol fraction was either in the vapor or liquid phase when you were finished? You have no idea what happened! You're guessing :)

    Why do you keep wasting your time with "tests" with outcomes that have infinite possible interpretations and not even qualitative results?

    And that process is not even slightly similar. You are performing a single process, batch time-dependant evaporation. When you apply the product to your head, the transport process of interest is the various mechanisms that govern the permeation into the scalp. The evaporation is a competing process that is changing the concentration of all three constituents WHILE the permeation process is occurring. And the concentration is the primary driving force in the permeation process.

    Now, you said that 2% has so much more alcohol that if all the alcohol evaporated from both products they would end up having the same concentration in the remaining PPG.

    What is the fraction of alcohol and the fraction of PPG in each of these two products? If I had that info I would have run the specific numbers already, but it doesn’t say on my bottle. Because there is only a specific range of relative fractions that would make this even possible on a straight mass basis and the range is rather extreme.

    What is the fraction of alcohol and the fraction of PPG in each of these two products so that you claim evaporating the alcohol from both would make the minoxidil-PPG concentrations resulting from each product the same?
    [/quote]
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Brian, we have to start a new thread. This discussion is starting to run a couple pages and not gonig to help anybody with Revivogen. Private Message me with a link to a new thread please :)
     
  19. HairyN

    HairyN Established Member

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    does anyone know if the shampoo has a shelf life?
     
  20. floatableTR

    floatableTR New Member

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    Hello,

    Well I've finally decided to end my year+ run of solo Revivogen and add Folligen(so much time wasted :cry: ) My question is for anyone that uses Revivogen with another topical solution. I was wondering what the length of time is between the application of the two. I wont aply one in the morning, it will only be after 6-7pm. So I was curious can I apply one right after the other or do I need to wait hours between, oooorrr even alternate from one day to the next. Any experiences??
     

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