Propecia | Page 3 | HairLossTalk Forums

Propecia

Discussion in 'Men's General Hair Loss Discussions' started by Administrator, Apr 15, 2002.

  1. Hairtoday...

    Hairtoday... New Member

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    I was just wondering whether anybody else suffered with greasy skin as a result of Proscar; never had the problem before but since I've been taking it, been suffering with excessive amounts of spots, which I guess are a result of the increased greasiness :wink: of my skin??
     
  2. HairlossTalk

    HairlossTalk Senior Member

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    Increased oiliness is common during the first few months, and sometimes in cycles after the first few months when using Propecia/Proscar/Finasteride. The inhibited binding of Testosterone to the 5-alpha reductase enzyme results in some free floating Testosterone. Thus increased T levels, which can result in pubescent-like conditions such as oily skin, acne, increased and decreased sex drive, etc.

    This is why it is important to take a regular, consistent dosage of Propecia and not fluctuate too much. Your hormones work like a pendulum, swinging back and forth until they reach equilibrium. Till then you may have high testosterone, low testosterone, high libido, then low libido.. .. but eventually it will even out and your body will overcompensate where it needs to. This is why side effects tend to dissipate over time with treatments like Propecia/Proscar/Finasteride.

    HairLossTalk.com
     
  3. Still Good Looking

    Still Good Looking New Member

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    Good post AJB!!!
    Was on Propecia a year ago for 6 months, and it seemed to work, but for some stupid reason I stopped taking it. Been back on it for 6 months again now, and I can't say I've seen any regrouth YET, but my mood has been really bad this time around. I guess you can say I'm suffering from a bit of depression. I haven't ruled the cause to be Propecia just yet. My life has changed allot recently, I've been insanely busy this summer, friends are all getting married, basically just a bunch of emotional stresses. I'm going to make some "lifestyle" changes soon though...(quit smoking, drink less, and exercise). I hope it works.
    This is a subject that should be looked into and considered but all who are on finasteride...
    but there is no better high than seeing regrouth!!!

    P.S. Any suggestions for online purchases of Propecia in CANADA???
    Seems a little pricey @ $100.00/month.
     
  4. Dismembered

    Dismembered New Member

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    I am trying to get rid of my supply. I have about seven weeks supply left of Propecia still in the silver sheets. They will expire May of 2003. If you are interested you can email me at dismem9121@hotmail.com.

    I will sell it cheaper then the pharmacy, but I am not touching this stuff ever again. I get really bad Telogen Effluvium and I am hoping my hair will recover from it again.
     
  5. DS

    DS New Member

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    :?: Whats Telogen Effluvium mean????? :?
     
  6. Dismembered

    Dismembered New Member

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  7. AJB

    AJB New Member

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    Re: Still Good Looking

    I hate to say it, but it gets worse.

    There's another neurosteroid that is affected by finasteride. It's called allotetrahydrodeoxycorticosterone (long name...call it THDOC for short). It is a metabolite of deoxycorticosterone (Doctor), an adrenal stress hormone. Part of the body's "stress response" is to produce corticosteroids like Doctor, which has lots of differente effects relevant to "fight or flight". Anyway, Doctor is coverted through two steps (the final step relying on 5-alpha reductase) into THDOC, which has a similar function to allopregnanolone: It is an enhancer of GABA signaling. So, when you are confronted with a stressor, your body releases corticosteroids, you get a jolt from that, and then at least one of them, Doctor, is converted into a relaxing neurosteroid.

    I think the implication of this is clear: Finasteride may interfere with your body's ability to produce an emotional calm after a stressor. If one is experiencing a lot of turmoil in one's life, I just have to wonder if taking finasteride makes it harder to cope with it.

    The details of this study can be found here:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

    There's another troubling study here:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

    In this study, rats were subjected to physical stress, or treated with an anxiogenic drug. In both cases, finasteride potentiated the response to anxiety in the brains of these rats, by lowering allopregnanolone levels.

    Damn, damn, damn.

    I didn't want to believe it, but I'm starting to become more and more convinced: This stuff may literally not be good for your mental health. There are more and more studies each month and they all tell the same story: finasteride is essentially an anxiogenic drug in both biochemical and behavioral animal models. It's reasonable to conclude it could have the same effect in humans, since these animal models are used to screen drugs for their potential anxiolytic or antidepressant properties. I'm deeply concerned now, and I don't know what the best response should be.
     
  8. richlocks

    richlocks Established Member

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    AJB,

    how long have you been taking finasteride? How are your results so far??

    I'd really like to see what Bryan would think of all this.

    Hopefully we can take finasteride until something better comes along. Possibly if the efficacy of topical finasteride is proven, or fluridil, or RU is released, etc.
     
  9. Still Good Looking

    Still Good Looking New Member

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    OH OH

    That stinks!

    But let's not forget...they don't indicate at what amount FN was tested. Most testing is done by injecting massive amounts of the drug in question. 1 mg a day is not going to dramatically alter your mood swings. Maybe someone with serious emotional problem would be significantly affected. But in most cases I wouldn't worry about it too much.
    For now FN is all we got guys! I know there's always Monox, but most people get the best results buy including FN in there regiment...and it's not without it's costs. Eat right, stay fit, take vitamins, stay positive, and get plenty of cardio (running, rollerblading, biking). This will give your scalp and mood the best chance they have.

    SGL
     
  10. richlocks

    richlocks Established Member

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    I agree.. it's probably MASS amount of finasteride with those studies.

    I do agree minoxidil does a great deal for growth.. but it has it's side effects as well..

    good words SGL..
     
  11. AJB

    AJB New Member

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    SGL

    Hey, SGL,

    I'm not sure what the mg/kg conversion for humans and other animals is, so I can't say whether or not the amounts in the studies I cited would be considered hugely excessive, comparatively speaking, in humans.

    However, I think one can approach the question of dose this way: Above 5mg/day in humans, finasteride seems to have little additional effect. I have read in several places that there may be no point in giving people a dose above 5mg/day of finasteride, because the decrease in DHT levels above 5mg/day are not much different (I saw an abstract where they were treating men with 100mg/day!...in this case there was about an 80% reduction in DHT, vs. 70% at 10mg/day...it's here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract). In fact, there is really only a very small difference in effect between 1 and 5mg finasteride.

    Also, finasteride is highly specific. No study has been able to demonstrate its action at any site but 5-alpha reductase. It does not bind to any homone receptor, or any other hormone-metabolizing enyzme that anyone is aware of.

    Finasteride, at extremely high doses, does start to inhibit type I 5-alpha-reductase. In other words, at massive doses, finasteride, at worst, starts to behave a little like dutasteride.

    So, I think it's unlikely one can blame the effects of finasteride in these animal studies on excessive dose. As has been clearly demonstrated in humans, adding more finasteride than is needed to completely inhibit type-II 5-alpha reductase does little more than the normal therapeutic dose.

    If combined inhibition of both types of 5-apha reductase were somehow to blame, at any rate, then I'd stay the hell away from dutasteride. IMHO, I am doubtful of such an explanation.
     
  12. richlocks

    richlocks Established Member

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    No, it's more like your explanation is the doubtful one.

    You're not making ANY sense.

    These studies on animals could not have been carried out in any longer of a time period than studies on humans.. Yet the adverse effects found in these animals have not been found in the human studies, simple as that.

    So it's either that animals behave differently to finasteride, or the excess dosage does something other than lower DHT. It's not like finasteride's has a one and only function of reducing DHT.

    If you take 10 grams of aspirin it may not make your headache better than the normal dosing, but it'll sure have some other nasty side effect.. death maybe? lol
     
  13. AJB

    AJB New Member

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    richlocks

    I don't think an overdose of finasteride can be compared to an overdose of aspirin. Finasteride is a much "cleaner" drug. Again, men taking twenty times the recommended dose of finasteride had, on average, ten percent less DHT than those taking twice the recommended dose (for benign prostate hyperplasia). There were no other reported effects. If a person takes twenty times the recommended dose of aspirin, they're in trouble.

    At any rate, the effects on neurosteroids that I mentioned above can be entirely explained by finasteride's mechanism of action. Again, some steroid hormones are converted to the active neurosteroids by 5-alpha reductase (5AR). If type II 5AR accounts for about 70% of the body's 5AR activity, even a 1mg/day dose will greatly reduce the amount of these neurosteroids.

    As for reported side effects, you have to take the clinical trial data with a grain of salt. For instance, the "official" reported rate of sexual dysfunction for Prozac is less than five percent above placebo. Yet every newspaper or magazine article I have ever read about it lists sexual problems as the #1 troubling side-effect of that drug. Most clinicians consider it the rule rather than the exception, a considerably different conclusion than what was arrived at in the original clinical trials. I have read in many places that doctors think the incidence of sexual side-effects in those taking finasteride is greater than reported in the original trials as well (though I would say the disparity is not as great). Also, if one is not asked about a certain side effect, it doesn't show up in the trial data. If you aren't looking for changes in mood or anxiety, you won't find them, unless the effect is very dramatic.

    I am quite willing myself to express some doubt about how significant the effects of finasteride on mood are. However, I have seen several people report that finasteride made them moody, and I myself have seen some suprising effects in my response to acohol. I think it's reasonable to suspect that, since finasteride does have a definite effect on the central nervous system, both in its inhibition of androgen, and its effect on neurosteroids, that a person taking finasteride could actually feel this effect manifested as depressed mood. I think discussion of personal experiences might help shed light on the subject.
     
  14. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    I have questions about those two studies which aren't answered in the abstracts. I'm going to get the full studies at the med library, and report on them afterwards...

    Bryan
     
  15. Max

    Max New Member

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    19 year old needs advice

    Hi there,

    I've been using Propecia for about 10 months now, and started using minxodil 5% about three months ago.

    My hair is still thinning, and it seems to be doing so rapidly....i can definitly see far more scalp than i could at, say, four months ago.

    I think the minoxodil is making my head itch, and pretty badly....Im curious if this could cause more hairloss than without using it.

    Also, being that im only 19, this is especially terrifying and expensive....but i would like to know what else i should be using to make a difference at all....because the two dermotologists that i've been to dont know anything other than 'rogain' and propecia.

    Any and all suggestions are appreciated.

    Thanks
    /Max
     
  16. Hairtoday...

    Hairtoday... New Member

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    Max,
    If you have some kind of underlying scalp problem such as flaking scalp from the minoxidil, this can hinder the effectiveness of any treatment. Might be worth trying Nizoral and T-Gel to calm the irritation; it's done the trick for me although judging by posts, everybody responds differently. Other board members should be able to recommend other products that work for them.
    Hope this helps.
     
  17. -pipo-

    -pipo- New Member

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    Max,
    What you may be experiencing is an allergic reaction to the propylene glycol contained in Rogaine. It is a humectant that is supposed to prevent your skin from drying out due to the alcohol content. I myself am allergic to it and had to stop using Rogaine brand as it was causing more hairloss than it was preventing.
    minoxidil is eessential to growing hair I believe.....So there are a few things you can do.....1) you can buy pg free Minoxidil from Dr. Lee 2) do what I did and mix Folligen into my regimen. Although it contains pg as well, it got my scalp baack to an irritation free state, I scratch my head now maybe once a month. 3) or go with a combonation of the two...I use Dr. Lee's regular minoxidil as it has less pg, but not so little that other ingredients have to be added so as to leave the hair greasy.
    Anyway, go on Folligen...trust me, the first month on it youll want to stop using it as the irritation will seem worse, then after a month youll be like "ahhhhhhhhhh" "thats nice"..........g'luck
    pipo
     
  18. Max

    Max New Member

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    Thanks alot. I've got a few more questions...

    Im taking 1mg of propecia, should i up this dosage? My hair loss appears pretty rapid, but i have long hair so its not as apparent. Also, should I be using minoxodil[5%] all over my head? I typically use it on the vertex as directed, as well as the front and middle of my head. Should I quit doing this?

    Also, I believe SOD was mentioned....should i begin using that right away? I want to take the most aggressive stance possible concerning my hair loss. Again, any advice is greatly appreciated, because to tell you the truth, I'm pretty freaked out.

    Thanks again,
    Max
     
  19. -pipo-

    -pipo- New Member

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    Max,
    It takes a long time for Propecia to start to work, so dont up the dosage. If anything, doing that could throw your hormones out of whack and you might have a massive shed.
    Dont stop using minoxidil....what you need to do right away imo is to get an SOD....This is the Folligen I mentioned...you can get it (get the spray form, its the best) at http://www.folligen.com. Whatever minoxidil you use, Folligen will get you over the irriation....but this takes a month of use of Folligen, and try it twice a day at foirst.
    Minoxidil can be used on any part of the head. Instructions read "vertex only" bc Rogaine is not allowed to claim it works on the hairline bc they never tested it there. However, it does work on the hairline and if you have hair loss there i would reccomend it.
    Anyway, get on aN SOD fast....preferably Folligen, and after a month of minoxidil, folligen and Propecia yopull start seeing some minor results....after 3 months you should stop losing hair and start actually growing back if you are a good responder....g'luck, let me know how it goes
    pipo
     
  20. straycat

    straycat Member

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    propecia vs booze

    hi guys.

    i'm taking propecia for near a month now and i'm only gonna look close in the mirror on the 6 month, then on the 12 month mark.
    just 2 questions:

    1. it says on the box not to take propecia and alcohol. does this mean 'right' when you take it, each day; for a range of several hours after or quit drinking?

    2. taking propecia before midnight, one day, and after midnight, some others, could mix up the '1 pill a day' rule of thumb? taking it each day at the same time can speed up results?


    if it works, i'll send the pictures i've already taken, htl.

    thanx.
     

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