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Hey ozzy, I mean ossa,
I don't work for Merck. I'm not even on finasteride.
I don't work for Merck. I'm not even on finasteride.
Propecia- One month Damage Report. I QUIT!
- Thread starter ossa
- Start date
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Re: We're not talking about "non responders":
i didn't know he was only on it a month. he probably would have been a good responder, people who shed a lot in the beginning typically are. now he can enjoy his NW7 I guess.
bubka said:
i didn't know he was only on it a month. he probably would have been a good responder, people who shed a lot in the beginning typically are. now he can enjoy his NW7 I guess.
bubka
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 16
sorry but i still don't know how you can blame it on Merck, sure the timing is there for the corolation... but you were taking a another drug in a form that is NOT fda approved for hairloss, i guess YOU should take some responsibility yourself when considering your reasoning
i am sorry man, but this adverse effect thing and blaming it on Merck is rediculous given your situation
i am sorry man, but this adverse effect thing and blaming it on Merck is rediculous given your situation
O MY GOD!
If any had actually bothered to read....
I've been taking oral minoxidil for two years. The same dose 10 mg a day. I've never made any changes and I've never had a shed from minoxidil.
I take minoxidil under a doctor's supervision , and don't recommend it unless you have a good physician. I've actually never had any adverse effect from it....only benefits: my blood pressure is a little lower and I've grown a lot of hair.
Of course, I only have a temporal (time) correlation between the start of propecia and the onset of my hairloss (2 weeks), but that's all the correlation I could ever hope to have...or need to have. Did you expect that I had done a scalp biopsy and in my CSI style basement had demonstrated an upregulation of a previously undescribed androgen receptor that was being activated by the increased serum testosterone in my circulation. C'mon...for cryin out loud. I started taking Propecia and two weeks later my hair started falling out. This isn't rocket science.
My current hairloss has nothing whatsoever to do with minoxidil....why would it? I've only grown hair from minoxidil, my frontal hairline is a centimeter lower than it was when I started...or when I was eighteen for that matter. Or maybe...just maybe, after two years of taking oral minoxidil in the same dose I just all of a sudden had a massive shed from it that's totally unrelated to the Propecia. Yeah....I'm sure that's it.
Or maybe, it was the chewable flinstones vitamin I took from my nephew a month ago. Could be. Did I mention that I had just returned from a two week vacation at a spa in Chernobyl?
It really doesn't matter whether minoxidil is FDA approved for hair loss by oral administration, it doesn't have any bearing on my situation, nor does it somehow imply that I should somehow be to blame for my hairloss. I am to blame only insofar as I decided to take the propecia. Minoxidil has been great for me and I'll continue to take it.
Why is it so difficult for some people to accept that maybe finasteride isn't the best thing since sliced bread, and it actually may be detrimental to some individuals. I don't like being lectured to or guilted about not sticking with the program or the implication that I'm somehow to blame for the hairloss....
I'm starting to think that defending myself against the Merck cheerleaders on this forum is starting to contribute to my hairloss, so please, please don't post any more nonsensical or insulting responses. I just felt another hair fall out.
If any had actually bothered to read....
I've been taking oral minoxidil for two years. The same dose 10 mg a day. I've never made any changes and I've never had a shed from minoxidil.
I take minoxidil under a doctor's supervision , and don't recommend it unless you have a good physician. I've actually never had any adverse effect from it....only benefits: my blood pressure is a little lower and I've grown a lot of hair.
Of course, I only have a temporal (time) correlation between the start of propecia and the onset of my hairloss (2 weeks), but that's all the correlation I could ever hope to have...or need to have. Did you expect that I had done a scalp biopsy and in my CSI style basement had demonstrated an upregulation of a previously undescribed androgen receptor that was being activated by the increased serum testosterone in my circulation. C'mon...for cryin out loud. I started taking Propecia and two weeks later my hair started falling out. This isn't rocket science.
My current hairloss has nothing whatsoever to do with minoxidil....why would it? I've only grown hair from minoxidil, my frontal hairline is a centimeter lower than it was when I started...or when I was eighteen for that matter. Or maybe...just maybe, after two years of taking oral minoxidil in the same dose I just all of a sudden had a massive shed from it that's totally unrelated to the Propecia. Yeah....I'm sure that's it.
Or maybe, it was the chewable flinstones vitamin I took from my nephew a month ago. Could be. Did I mention that I had just returned from a two week vacation at a spa in Chernobyl?
It really doesn't matter whether minoxidil is FDA approved for hair loss by oral administration, it doesn't have any bearing on my situation, nor does it somehow imply that I should somehow be to blame for my hairloss. I am to blame only insofar as I decided to take the propecia. Minoxidil has been great for me and I'll continue to take it.
Why is it so difficult for some people to accept that maybe finasteride isn't the best thing since sliced bread, and it actually may be detrimental to some individuals. I don't like being lectured to or guilted about not sticking with the program or the implication that I'm somehow to blame for the hairloss....
I'm starting to think that defending myself against the Merck cheerleaders on this forum is starting to contribute to my hairloss, so please, please don't post any more nonsensical or insulting responses. I just felt another hair fall out.
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as we've already said guy,
you didn't give it enough time to work. you might have been a very good responder.
you didn't give it enough time to work. you might have been a very good responder.
There's no proof whatsoever that those who shed early in treatment go on to be so called "good responders." That is your opinion.
There are no published data on that whatsoever.
There are however numerous testimonials from people who start shedding early and never stop shedding even after more than a year of finasteride.
All I'm saying is that I didn't want to be in that position at a years time.
There are no published data on that whatsoever.
There are however numerous testimonials from people who start shedding early and never stop shedding even after more than a year of finasteride.
All I'm saying is that I didn't want to be in that position at a years time.
bubka
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 16
you said that you had a "good physician" who gave you a drug that was not FDA approved for your application, now i am not saying there is anything wrong with that, but i don't know the interaction between oral minoxidil and finasteride... does your "good physician"?
my physician had a scalp biopsy done when i started losing hair like crazy, though it really didn't find anything conclusive besides below normal free and total testosterone...
it's also a known fact that minoxidil does not work forever, and it is an essential patch... did you think that maybe it just stopped working?
my physician had a scalp biopsy done when i started losing hair like crazy, though it really didn't find anything conclusive besides below normal free and total testosterone...
it's also a known fact that minoxidil does not work forever, and it is an essential patch... did you think that maybe it just stopped working?
You guys are acting like complete d1cks - "Jayman" in particular. Who the hell are you to give snidey little comments about "enjoying his NW7" to a guy who's reacted badly to a drug that thousands of people are nervous about trying, or are currently suffering side effects from, and who's described his experiences to people who he'd have been right to expect a little compassion from. Grow up.
Ossa, try to relax and give your system a break from worrying about the changes you've seen in the last few weeks - if the loss is noticeable consider a bit of toppik or something to keep your confidence up. If it isn't noticeable to others then really do your best to think about other things, and maybe look into some topical anti-androgens so that you know you're doing something. Sorry to hear about your experience - it sounds sh1tty.
Jayman, you're still a tool.
Ossa, try to relax and give your system a break from worrying about the changes you've seen in the last few weeks - if the loss is noticeable consider a bit of toppik or something to keep your confidence up. If it isn't noticeable to others then really do your best to think about other things, and maybe look into some topical anti-androgens so that you know you're doing something. Sorry to hear about your experience - it sounds sh1tty.
Jayman, you're still a tool.
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DB1 said:
i'm not the one who called propecia "poison". Don't be foolish kid.
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bubka said:
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Jayman,
You post an average of 17 times a day on this site. Surely you have something better to do with your time than to mock the experiences of others? Maybe not.
I didn't say propecia was poison for everyone. I said it was poison for me...and that too was hyperbole. I didn't literally mean it was poison- I'm sure that was obvious to almost anyone who read my post.
Penicillin still saves millions of lives each year, but .01% of those who use it develop anaphylaxis, and 10% of those actually die. Clearly penicillin is beneficial for the vast majority of individuals and detrimental to a few. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.
You post an average of 17 times a day on this site. Surely you have something better to do with your time than to mock the experiences of others? Maybe not.
I didn't say propecia was poison for everyone. I said it was poison for me...and that too was hyperbole. I didn't literally mean it was poison- I'm sure that was obvious to almost anyone who read my post.
Penicillin still saves millions of lives each year, but .01% of those who use it develop anaphylaxis, and 10% of those actually die. Clearly penicillin is beneficial for the vast majority of individuals and detrimental to a few. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.
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Ossa,
most of my posts are helping people out but when someone posts stuff like you do I am going to respond to it.
the problem with your penicillin analogy is that you have statistics to back up your penicillin argument while you have no stats or data to back up your theory that finasteride worsened your hair loss.
most of my posts are helping people out but when someone posts stuff like you do I am going to respond to it.
the problem with your penicillin analogy is that you have statistics to back up your penicillin argument while you have no stats or data to back up your theory that finasteride worsened your hair loss.
Jayman,
Why do you think I posted my experience online? Well, it was both to get advice (not sarcasm and criticism) and to let others know that when they experience a reaction to a medication they should file an adverse event report as I have done with Merck.
The reason there is little data on side effects from Propecia that weren't noted in the original studies is that people are lax about reporting the adverse results to their physicians and physicians and pharmacists tend to be lazy about reporting the events back to the manufacturers. Significant side effects often go unnoticed/unreported for years as a result. Tetracycline can cause permanent staining of childrens' teeth yet that wasn't recognized/described until after the drug had been on the market for 25 years! I can name numerous other examples of untoward side effects that weren't picked up in the original studies (phen-phen being one of them).
There is nothing in the Propecia package insert about "sheds" nor is there a description of them in the original studies. Does that mean the phenomenon doesn't exist. No, it simply means that the numerous people that have experienced sheds haven't bothered to report it as a side effect.
On sites like this it is a commonly described phenomenon and it's treated as a rite of passage that one has to go through before new hair growth starts. It seems to make intuitive sense, but is there really any data on that? My dermatologist, a prestigious UCLA dermatologist didn't think that Propecia caused sheds....is he correct? I didn't think so either.
Most of those people who shed probably did go on to experience hair growth above and beyond their baseline.... but some probably did not. Is the data on side effects published by the manufacturer even relevant to the shedding scenario?
If one were to believe the data presented in the Propecia package insert, no patients on Propecia had lower hair counts at 6 months than before starting the drug....yet the numerous testimonials on this and other websites seem to contradict that. Is that scientific. No. Does it have to be to be significant. No. I've seen numerous testimonials from intelligent, educated, seemingly reliable individuals who are as puzzled as I was when my hair suddenly began falling out after starting a medication to slow hair loss. I'd never looked at one of these forums in my life until I had been on Propecia for two weeks and noticed my hair falling out at a striking rate. I turned to the experiences of others for answers as the manufacturer (and physicians) had no answers.
If no one ever reports any side effects then the manufacturer can happily and glibly report the extremely low incidence of side effects- only 1.4% of individuals discontinued the drug for side effects that were "possibly, probably, or definitely" related to the medication. Does that percentage really seem reasonable to you? It was less than the discontinuation rate for the placebo. By the way, sheds weren't described in the original minoxidil packaging but after numerous post marketing reports from patients they eventually were.
The problem I experienced was more than "possibly" related to the medication and I did my duty and reported it. Others should do the same, and that was the thrust of my original post.
I'm sure you'll want to have the last word on this and I don't care.
I'm tired of this banter with you, I've heard your opinion and I'm no longer interested in it: you can have the last word if you like.
I'm just going to continue to report on my response after discontinuing the drug- I think it's a service to others who are contemplating taking the medication to be fully informed.
Again, for the record I'm sure that Propecia benefits far more people than it hurts- but it clearly seems to be detrimental to some. One would have to truly be naive to believe the published adverse reaction rates.
I'm happy to say that I've been off Propecia since September 18, and the scalp itch is finally dying down. My skin is less oily, I no longer have dandruff, and I definitely have shed less the last two days... only about 20-30 hairs when I comb my hair...as opposed to the 150-200 I was losing on September 10. I'm still waiting for my testosterone and dht results...they were obtained the day I discontinued the Propecia. I'll post them when I get them.
Why do you think I posted my experience online? Well, it was both to get advice (not sarcasm and criticism) and to let others know that when they experience a reaction to a medication they should file an adverse event report as I have done with Merck.
The reason there is little data on side effects from Propecia that weren't noted in the original studies is that people are lax about reporting the adverse results to their physicians and physicians and pharmacists tend to be lazy about reporting the events back to the manufacturers. Significant side effects often go unnoticed/unreported for years as a result. Tetracycline can cause permanent staining of childrens' teeth yet that wasn't recognized/described until after the drug had been on the market for 25 years! I can name numerous other examples of untoward side effects that weren't picked up in the original studies (phen-phen being one of them).
There is nothing in the Propecia package insert about "sheds" nor is there a description of them in the original studies. Does that mean the phenomenon doesn't exist. No, it simply means that the numerous people that have experienced sheds haven't bothered to report it as a side effect.
On sites like this it is a commonly described phenomenon and it's treated as a rite of passage that one has to go through before new hair growth starts. It seems to make intuitive sense, but is there really any data on that? My dermatologist, a prestigious UCLA dermatologist didn't think that Propecia caused sheds....is he correct? I didn't think so either.
Most of those people who shed probably did go on to experience hair growth above and beyond their baseline.... but some probably did not. Is the data on side effects published by the manufacturer even relevant to the shedding scenario?
If one were to believe the data presented in the Propecia package insert, no patients on Propecia had lower hair counts at 6 months than before starting the drug....yet the numerous testimonials on this and other websites seem to contradict that. Is that scientific. No. Does it have to be to be significant. No. I've seen numerous testimonials from intelligent, educated, seemingly reliable individuals who are as puzzled as I was when my hair suddenly began falling out after starting a medication to slow hair loss. I'd never looked at one of these forums in my life until I had been on Propecia for two weeks and noticed my hair falling out at a striking rate. I turned to the experiences of others for answers as the manufacturer (and physicians) had no answers.
If no one ever reports any side effects then the manufacturer can happily and glibly report the extremely low incidence of side effects- only 1.4% of individuals discontinued the drug for side effects that were "possibly, probably, or definitely" related to the medication. Does that percentage really seem reasonable to you? It was less than the discontinuation rate for the placebo. By the way, sheds weren't described in the original minoxidil packaging but after numerous post marketing reports from patients they eventually were.
The problem I experienced was more than "possibly" related to the medication and I did my duty and reported it. Others should do the same, and that was the thrust of my original post.
I'm sure you'll want to have the last word on this and I don't care.
I'm tired of this banter with you, I've heard your opinion and I'm no longer interested in it: you can have the last word if you like.
I'm just going to continue to report on my response after discontinuing the drug- I think it's a service to others who are contemplating taking the medication to be fully informed.
Again, for the record I'm sure that Propecia benefits far more people than it hurts- but it clearly seems to be detrimental to some. One would have to truly be naive to believe the published adverse reaction rates.
I'm happy to say that I've been off Propecia since September 18, and the scalp itch is finally dying down. My skin is less oily, I no longer have dandruff, and I definitely have shed less the last two days... only about 20-30 hairs when I comb my hair...as opposed to the 150-200 I was losing on September 10. I'm still waiting for my testosterone and dht results...they were obtained the day I discontinued the Propecia. I'll post them when I get them.
beaner
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 45
JayMan said:
Jayman...there are tons of stories on this forum alone from guys who think finasteride made their hair worse. There have been reported cases of telogen effluvium caused by finasteride as well as reflex hyperandrogenicity.
Face it Jayman, you do not have all the answers, so quit pretending you do. Finasteride is a drug and there are some people who may have adverse effects, just like any drug. I saw your first post here and you didn't know jackshit....and that was only..oh about 4 months ago....and now you troll around this forum thinking you are a guru. You simply need to stop.....YOU DO NOT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.....NO ONE DOES!!
I, for one, am sick of seeing your name on every post, throwing your two cents in whether or not you really know what you're talking about.
Whatever your childish response to this will be, I will not post on this thread again. That is all I'll say on the matter....been wanting to do it for a long time.
You guys need to take it easy. I for one appreciate Jayman's presence on this forum. I know I'm new here, but for as long as I've been posting, he's never come off as this condescending know-it-all. He's just giving his two cents when it applies. Keep doing your thing Jay.
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You know, Beaner, you're being a real prick.
I always thought you were a nice guy.
If it would make you guys happy if I didn't post on here again , just say the word. I don't want to post in a place where my posts are not welcomed or appreciated.
Why don't you look in the tell your story forum and see how many hours I've spent helping newbies out. A lot of the time I'm the first person they see on this forum and I get countless PMs thanking me for my help and taking the time to explain things to them via PM when they have more detailed or personal questions. If you wanted to poll them, me aginst you, about who has been more helpful it would not even be a contest. So get off your high horse and stop participating in the lynching of JayMan which followed the lynching of collegechemistrystudent and there have been other people on here who have left over the years because of people like you. Yes I explain basic stuff to the newbies on here but no one else seems to want to take the time. A lot of time I'm bumping posts in that forum that haven't had a response yet in 2 or 3 days. I don't troll around the forum. I avoid threads with topics in which I don't know the answer.
Thanks for the support, apathy, and thank you everyone else for your support as well.
I always thought you were a nice guy.
If it would make you guys happy if I didn't post on here again , just say the word. I don't want to post in a place where my posts are not welcomed or appreciated.
Why don't you look in the tell your story forum and see how many hours I've spent helping newbies out. A lot of the time I'm the first person they see on this forum and I get countless PMs thanking me for my help and taking the time to explain things to them via PM when they have more detailed or personal questions. If you wanted to poll them, me aginst you, about who has been more helpful it would not even be a contest. So get off your high horse and stop participating in the lynching of JayMan which followed the lynching of collegechemistrystudent and there have been other people on here who have left over the years because of people like you. Yes I explain basic stuff to the newbies on here but no one else seems to want to take the time. A lot of time I'm bumping posts in that forum that haven't had a response yet in 2 or 3 days. I don't troll around the forum. I avoid threads with topics in which I don't know the answer.
Thanks for the support, apathy, and thank you everyone else for your support as well.