Ok, dustateride was not the miracle we expected, whats next?

[CCS]

Bryan already posted a study on this. It was done back in the 1960's. A researcher tracked down 26 castrated men and asked to see photographs of them before and after they were castrated, and interview them and inspected them. He did not do hair counts. He found out the age the were castrated. Every castrated man did not lose any more hair, even the 15 year old did not lose his very low hair line after 20 years. Appearantly, they did not regrow any hair either, if they had male pattern baldness before castration. Many here suspect they did, but just not enough to be obvious in random photographs, or enough for the men themselves to notice it in the mirror. One of them did obviously have a little more hair in the vertex. As stated earlier, no before and after hair counts were done.

 

[Bryan]

castration after puberty does little for mbp

Depends on what you mean by "does little" for male pattern baldness. It prevents further progression, which is certainly something to be greatly desired.

Also, I should mention here that the 1960 study by Hamilton that I posted about before is certainly not the only one that he did on that subject. His seminal study "Male Hormone Stimulation Is Prerequisite and an Incitant in Common Baldness" (Am J Anat 1942; 71: 451-480) is still to this day widely referenced and cited in medical journals and textbooks.

Bryan

 

[bubka]

totally prevents though...? i mean, i think even maybe CCS may try it then (joking)

 

[CCS]

yes, castration will keep your 12 year old hair line until you are 50 years old. it just won't dramatically regrow hair in really thin areas.

 

[Felk]

If type 1 increased for some reason, an increase in sebum would be an obvious and expected result.

Bryan

If increasing type 1 would bring about an increase in sebum, then why didn't inhibitting type 1 with Merck's MK drug have any effect on acne? Was this result just very unexpected?

 

[Guest]

So Bryan,

By taking 0.5 mg dutasteride a day instead of 1 mg finasteride, someone can keep the faucet turned off for much longer and the water will come on slower when it does come on?

 

[Bryan]

If increasing type 1 would bring about an increase in sebum, then why didn't inhibitting type 1 with Merck's MK drug have any effect on acne? Was this result just very unexpected?

Yes, I think it was certainly unexpected. Reading between the lines of that study, you can sort of sense the puzzlement of the doctors as to why it didn't work. That's something that future studies will explain, hopefully.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

So Bryan,

By taking 0.5 mg dutasteride a day instead of 1 mg finasteride, someone can keep the faucet turned off for much longer and the water will come on slower when it does come on?

What that analogy described was taking a SINGLE dose of finasteride. Using it to describe what happens when you take 0.5 mg/day of dutasteride would be to say that the faucet is almost completely shut-off (about 98% to 99% or so), and kept that way 24/7.

Bryan

 

[powersam]

so if androgen receptors increase with lowered dht, would they decrease due to raised dht? or is it a one way street?

 

[Bryan]

so if androgen receptors increase with lowered dht, would they decrease due to raised dht?

Sure.

 

[Guest]

So Bryan,

By taking 0.5 mg dutasteride a day instead of 1 mg finasteride, someone can keep the faucet turned off for much longer and the water will come on slower when it does come on?

What that analogy described was taking a SINGLE dose of finasteride. Using it to describe what happens when you take 0.5 mg/day of dutasteride would be to say that the faucet is almost completely shut-off (about 98% to 99% or so), and kept that way 24/7.

Bryan

ah i gotcha. sorry i misunderstood.

what i was wondering about is how fast the faucet flows when my genetics eventually overpower the dutasteride?

 

[Guest]

so if androgen receptors increase with lowered dht, would they decrease due to raised dht? or is it a one way street?

what are the consequences of androgen receptot increases? I dont even know what that means haha.

 

[Bryan]

what i was wondering about is how fast the faucet flows when my genetics eventually overpower the dutasteride?

What exactly do you mean when you say "overpower the dutasteride"? I've never seen one single iota of evidence that finasteride and dutasteride ever lose their ability to inhibit 5a-reductase. In other words, their ability to reduce DHT stays the same indefinitely, as far as I know.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

what are the consequences of androgen receptot increases? I dont even know what that means haha.

Presumably, it would make the cells somewhat more sensitive to any available androgens.

Androgen receptors are specific proteins synthesized by cells, which are able to bind with androgens. They sort of "float" around the cell's cytoplasm. Typically, they number from about 3,000 to 10,000 or so, but those numbers could be changed by various influences.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

what i was wondering about is how fast the faucet flows when my genetics eventually overpower the dutasteride?

What exactly do you mean when you say "overpower the dutasteride"? I've never seen one single iota of evidence that finasteride and dutasteride ever lose their ability to inhibit 5a-reductase. In other words, their ability to reduce DHT stays the same indefinitely, as far as I know.

Bryan

sorry i know my wording is bad. i don't believe from my limited knowledge and what i've read and heard that finasteride and dutasteride ever lose their effectiveness. what i thought was that follicles sensitivity to dht increases in male pattern baldness men as time goes on, and that this is why the mean hair count on finasteride starts to fall after the second year. Although maybe you could explain why the slope on the 5 year merck graph with propecia seems to get less steep from year 4 to year 5 when compared to year 3 to year 4?

I've heard you make posts on the effects of plain old testosterone, so is the reason that people still lose hair eventually while on dutasteride and finasteride because of the follicles increased sensitivity to the testosterone and not the dht?

it must be something else because i just can't believe that some people's hair cannot withstand even 2% of original DHT levels(cause dutasteride inhibits ~98% of type 2).

i ask because i'm 22 years old and on dutasteride and a Norwood 1-1.5, and i know there are others in my situation on here, like Aplunk. Aplunk has made posts saying that he is still losing hair while on dutasteride so something else has to be at play here besides dht right? Or are some people's genetics just that bad?

people like felk on here have told me that i will still probably lose my hair even on dutasteride 0.5 mg per day, and I don't understand why. I mean I'm inhibiting 98.5% of type 2 DHT which is thought to be the main cause of hair loss? Even if there are other things at play then shouldn't the fact that I'm knocking out the main bastard mean that if I do lose hair I will lose it incredibly slowly and maybe recede to a NW2 at worst?

Oh and maybe you could answer a question that htownballa and i have been discussing if you get a chance. Is it true that since working out will increase testosterone levels that this will increase or accelerate hair loss?

Thanks Bryan

 

[Bryan]

sorry i know my wording is bad. i don't believe from my limited knowledge and what i've read and heard that finasteride and dutasteride ever lose their effectiveness. what i thought was that follicles sensitivity to dht increases in male pattern baldness men as time goes on, and that this is why the mean hair count on finasteride starts to fall after the second year.

Oh, I think that's a distinct possibility. An increase in sensitivity to ALL androgens, not just DHT. Also, one of my own pet theories is that at least part of that slow average decline is from the aging process itself.

Although maybe you could explain why the slope on the 5 year merck graph with propecia seems to get less steep from year 4 to year 5 when compared to year 3 to year 4?

I wouldn't make too much out of that. It would be nice if it really were true, but I think the difference in those slopes is probably well within the area of statistical uncertainty.

I've heard you make posts on the effects of plain old testosterone, so is the reason that people still lose hair eventually while on dutasteride and finasteride because of the follicles increased sensitivity to the testosterone and not the dht?

Increased sensitivity to testosterone and DHT (especially in the case of finasteride). BTW, I'll withhold full judgement on the long-term effectiveness of dutasteride until I actually see studies which look at that (of course, that's very unlikely now ever to happen). I don't fully trust anecdotes reported on hairloss sites from individual users.

i ask because i'm 22 years old and on dutasteride and a Norwood 1-1.5, and i know there are others in my situation on here, like Aplunk. Aplunk has made posts saying that he is still losing hair while on dutasteride so something else has to be at play here besides dht right? Or are some people's genetics just that bad?

How long has he been on it? Maybe he hasn't given it enough time. An old phrase I always used to like to use on alt.baldspot is that sometimes it takes quite a while for balding to "coast to a stop".

people like felk on here have told me that i will still probably lose my hair even on dutasteride 0.5 mg per day, and I don't understand why. I mean I'm inhibiting 98.5% of type 2 DHT which is thought to be the main cause of hair loss? Even if there are other things at play then shouldn't the fact that I'm knocking out the main bastard mean that if I do lose hair I will lose it incredibly slowly and maybe recede to a NW2 at worst?

Before you let someone like Felk scare you and discourage you, why not just see how YOU actually do on dutasteride? :wink:

Oh and maybe you could answer a question that htownballa and i have been discussing if you get a chance. Is it true that since working out will increase testosterone levels that this will increase or accelerate hair loss?

I'm not sure. That's not something I care to speculate about.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

wow thanks for the detailed response bryan. thank you.



if you were balding, and could pick one drug to stay on indefinitely to have the best shot at stopping your hair loss, would you pick dutasteride over finasteride?

Before you let someone like Felk scare you and discourage you, why not just see how YOU actually do on dutasteride? Wink

Haha it may be decades before I lose on it. Will you still be here then? This forum may not even exist then.

Also, one of my own pet theories is that at least part of that slow average decline is from the aging process itself.

So let me see if I understand what you're saying. You're saying that you think the average decline on propecia mirrors the average decline in hair count that all men face, male pattern baldness men and non-male pattern baldness men alike? Because that's not much of a decline at all when you compare it to how fast someone would decline without either finasteride or dutasteride.

thanks.

 

[Felk]

people like felk on here have told me that i will still probably lose my hair even on dutasteride 0.5 mg per day, and I don't understand why. I mean I'm inhibiting 98.5% of type 2 DHT which is thought to be the main cause of hair loss? Even if there are other things at play then shouldn't the fact that I'm knocking out the main bastard mean that if I do lose hair I will lose it incredibly slowly and maybe recede to a NW2 at worst?

Before you let someone like Felk scare you and discourage you, why not just see how YOU actually do on dutasteride? :wink:


Bryan

I didn't want to scare or discourage him, I was just saying that people don't maintain their hair forever on finasteride/dutasteride, and told him what the statistics said would happen using finasteride on average. I made it very clear that everyone responds differently.

Here is my original post, as you can see it's neither scary or discouraging...

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... 2&start=20

I don't know, as there are no long term dutasteride studies.

However, for propecia, around year 2 haircounts peak, and around year 5 the hairs are only slightly above baseline (40-50 hairs). This is all on average

So if you are taking a dutasteride. dose that is equivalent to propecia (or is it Proscar? in which case it would be different) you are going to regrow/maintain your hair for 5 years, then slowly begin to lose ground, on average

It could well maintain your hair for twenty years. It could not work at all. Everyone is different, thus we go on averages.

Hopefully HM or something else will be out by then anyway

 

[Guest]

Hey Felk,

I just don't understand, as I told Bryan, why people would continue to lose hair on dutasteride. I mean in the Propecia thing they're blocking what 85%? But I'm inhibiting 98.5% of type 2 DHT which is thought to be the main cause of hair loss? Even if there are other things at play then shouldn't the fact that I'm knocking out the main bastard type 2 DHT mean that if I do lose hair on it eventually, I'll lose it only about as fast as a person without male pattern baldness?

 

[Guest]

bump for bryan and felk hehe