Ok, dustateride was not the miracle we expected, whats next?

[Apoc]

I think that anti androgens for treating hairloss will be obsolete within a next few years. They don't work that well and the systemic effect on your body usually becomes unacceptable with prolonged usage in younger people. It's like using a sledgehammer to open a wallnut.

 

[CCS]

goingat20

goingat20

For your manhood's sake, stop taking flutamide, or at least stop taking it orally. According the the fluridil study, 16% of flutamide applied to the scalp goes systemic. Bryan just gave an even scarier estimate. The fluridil molecule looks like the flutamide molecule, so I'm guessing it is as strong, but has a tail on the end with an N-C=0C bond that breaks in water, so that it can't survive in you blood stream. It just goes into the dermal fat or into the follicle and is destroyed when it goes further. It is liek $35 per month on eucapil.com. How much are you paying for flutamide?

 

[Bryan]

I dont think I ever read anyting about these men's adult genitalia being aversley effected in any way, and in fact if that did happen, Im pretty sure that the articles Ive read on it would have pointed that out. I would almost bet the house that their genitals are normally sized, they just dont really start to develop big time until after the testosterone upshot of puberty.

Michael, DON'T BET THE HOUSE ON IT!

You know those pictures of the "pseudo's" that I've posted from time-to-time? Well, the study where those came from also contained graphic photos of the genitalia of some of them, and their penises are indeed noticeably smaller than normal. I wish I could post those pictures, but I'd get in trouble with Geocities if I did.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Re: that sounds believable

OK. New question. If scalp DHT levels (I'm guessing that means blood scalp) decrease by 38% due to propecia, what percentage of DHT do you think is inhibited inside the cell?

A fairly recent study done by a bunch of big-name deramatologists found that Propecia decreased scalp DHT levels by somewhere around 60% to 70%. So NOW you know why I take those numbers with a grain or two of salt! If they vary so much from one study to another, what's the point of even discussing any specific numbers as if they really mean anything at all?

Hmmm....one other question. If DHT is produced in the cell and slowly leaks out in small quantities, and it is metabolized in the liver and not in the cell, that means the cells produce it at the same rate it leaks, just enough to replace what leaks while the build up in the cell goes to receptors. Since the amount that leaks is small, and the amount that is produced is small, and the cell traps enough to keep a high load, this explains why DHT levels take time to return once knocked out...OK that was not a question.

Ok, I just made-up the following little analogy: You have a water faucet which is cracked open a little and has been pouring a small, steady stream of water (DHT) into a big water barrel (the bloodstream) on a continuous basis. The water barrel isn't full to overflowing, though, because there's a small hole near the bottom of it which water is leaking out of (liver elimination of DHT). As the barrel started to get full, the increased water pressure forced more water out of the hole at a greater rate, until the barrel has now reached an equilibrium at a nearly-full level. The water flow from the faucet is now equal to the water leaking out of the hole in the barrel.

Someone now comes along and SHUTS OFF the faucet suddenly (takes a dose of finasteride). Water is now no longer coming out of the faucet, so the level in the barrel is now starting to go down rather quickly as the water keeps gushing out of the hole. After about 24 hours, it's at its lowest point in the big barrel.

But wait!! Something else has happened, too! Shortly after the first person shut off the water faucet, another person came along and started to slowly crack the faucet open again, just a little bit at a time. At first they opened it just enough to have a slight drip-drip of water, then a little while later they opened it a tiny bit more, then later a tiny bit more, then later still a tiny bit more, over a space of a couple of days or so (the slow regeneration of the 5a-reductase enzyme). The net result is that the water level inside the barrel slowly started rising again as water started to flow from a slow trickle back to its original rate, but it took the barrel up to a week or two for the water to reach its original level.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

thanks for those graphs

I put the graphs on my desk top for now.
I'm trying to figure out how long it takes these drugs to get into the follicles and shut down the DHT production. It looks like DHT leveles fall 80% as far as they will fall in less than a day. I don't know if the drugs gradually get into the cells from the blood and shut them down over a number of hours, or if they get in almost instantly and the fall off we see is just the liver breaking down the DHT in blood as the remainder leaks out of the cells. I think the second is the case. The reason I'm curious about this I want to know if topical finasteride would wipe out DHT in cells in the 30 minutes of contact and then not be needed for another 12 hours or a day (the sharp rise after day 28) or if they slowly enter cells and must sit in the blood a while before acting. ( I know you don't think it can get in the pore or skin, but let's just say what if for now and figure out the vehicle later).

I like the halflife of finasteride because it would break down in the body after it does its job in the scalp. It seems to drop DHT levels and 5AR levels just as fast as the dutasteride does. That 0.1mg dutasteride is incredibly slow acting.
OK, I'm going to sleep.

 

[Guest]

Guys don't forget that while propecia reduces androgen levels in the scalp, there is also an intense upregulation of androgen expression in the scalp.

 

[ANDREW_J_I]

^pardon

 

[Aplunk1]

Great analogy, Bryan.

I enjoyed reading that.

So, after taking oral finasteride, on a daily basis, the 5AR enzyme steadily grows back?

I'm sorry if I phrased this wrong.

 

[CCS]

Aplunk1, what do you mean 5ar2 regrows?

are you refering to the graphs where people take one pill on one day and you see the levels of each 5ar drop and climb again, or do you mean that while men are on propecia, 5ar2 addapts and climbs again while they are still on it. could you give a link to that great paper you said you read?

 

[CCS]

most bad DHT made in follicle

I think Bryan is right that the lion's share of DHT damage is done by DHT made inside the follicle and not nearly as much by DHT in the blood.

If they put balding hair on an arm, and it went bald anyway, right on schedule, and they put non-balding hair from the back of the head to the front, and it does not go bald, that means that either balding hairs are very sensitive and non-balding hairs very not sensitive, or the bad DHT is made by the balding follicle. In fact, it makes sense that a cell that makes twice as much DHT would have twice as many receptors to uptake that DHT.

As for the first theory, I would think that since arm skin has less DHT nearby than scalp skin, the hair would have balded more slowly. I know the drop in DHT is only 50%, but propecia drops it only 38% by one study and 60% by another. Both are close to 50%, and propecia halts hair loss in 80% of men and regrows an average of 15 hairs per square centimeter in the first year. I think it works inside the cells, where it matters.

As for my topical dutasteride, I think I'm sticking with 4 capsules per month and also mixing in some topical finasteride, so that if one is not absorbed maybe the other will be.

I'm still deciding what my oral backup will be, dutasteride once a week or finasteride 1.25mg every other day.

 

[Bryan]

So, after taking oral finasteride, on a daily basis, the 5AR enzyme steadily grows back?

Yes. There's constantly a turnover of enzyme, whether or not you take inhibitors like finasteride/dutasteride.

I just checked the Gisleskog study like I promised I would do a day or two ago: they say that the turnover "half-life" of the type 2 enzyme is 80 hours, and 45 hours for the type 1 enzyme. In other words, the type 1 enzyme grows back FASTER than type 2, which is one of the reasons that dutasteride is less effective against type 1 than type 2.

So it makes sense when you think about it: you take a Proscar tablet one day, and it knocks out about 90% of the type 2 enzyme after 24 hours. And by 3 1/3 days after THAT, only about half of the missing type 2 activity has recovered. It's not surprising that it takes a few more days for DHT levels to get back up to where they were at the beginning.

Bryan

 

[Goingat20]

Re: goingat20

goingat20

For your manhood's sake, stop taking flutamide, or at least stop taking it orally. According the the fluridil study, 16% of flutamide applied to the scalp goes systemic. Bryan just gave an even scarier estimate. The fluridil molecule looks like the flutamide molecule, so I'm guessing it is as strong, but has a tail on the end with an N-C=0C bond that breaks in water, so that it can't survive in you blood stream. It just goes into the dermal fat or into the follicle and is destroyed when it goes further. It is liek $35 per month on eucapil.com. How much are you paying for flutamide?

I use it topically once a day on the hair line, i use approximately .5ml a day, could that get me those sides you mentioned? Im paying $49 from genhair.com (200ml)

 

[Goingat20]

Re: goingat20

goingat20

For your manhood's sake, stop taking flutamide, or at least stop taking it orally. According the the fluridil study, 16% of flutamide applied to the scalp goes systemic. Bryan just gave an even scarier estimate. The fluridil molecule looks like the flutamide molecule, so I'm guessing it is as strong, but has a tail on the end with an N-C=0C bond that breaks in water, so that it can't survive in you blood stream. It just goes into the dermal fat or into the follicle and is destroyed when it goes further. It is liek $35 per month on eucapil.com. How much are you paying for flutamide?

i use .5ml once a day on the hairline (topically), could that get those side effects you mentioned?
I get it from genhair.com $49 for 200ml

 

[CCS]

I don't koow if you will get side effects from flutamide

I'm just telling what I heard, that it is not a topical for men for this reason. I don't know if you will get any side effects or not. Bryan might know. Fluridil is about $5 cheaper after shipping and you get 2mL per day, 2%. But mine has not arrived in the mail yet, so I'll have to let you know when and if it arrives.

 

[CCS]

dutasteride uptake

Bryan,
I've been looking at those graphs in that paper you sent me. the ones with a single dose of various levels and the serum concentraiton over a month. I think the initial concentration is when it first enters the blood. I think the quick drop off they is the dutasteride going into the cells. then the slower drop off is the dutasteride metabolized by the liver. The first drop off, in these graphs and some others you sent me, look like 2/3 of the first drop happens in an hour or two, and the full drop happens in 25. Same with finasteride. My reason for pointing this out is that if it is taking into the cells this fast, that means a topical only has to stay in the scalp for an hour or two to do its work before blood rinces it away. Some rogaine takes 1-4 hours to dry. The 0.1mg drop is the about the same size as the others (log scale scews this). And if only 1/3 of my dutasteride is absorbed, the concentration in my scalp will be the same it would be if I had takes 1.5mg orally. So I have some to play with here. Same with the finasteride.

I'm going to use 1 dutasteride capsule and two extracted proscar pills in 1 bottle of 5% minoxidil each week, 4mL 2x per day over my whole male pattern baldness area, thinning or not. Something should get absorbed.

 

[HARM1]

Q

So if 5AR-1 doesn't make those people who only have it and not 2 go bald why the hell do we inhibit it?!!!!!!

abd another thing- IS DHT made by the folicules themselves? if so it is possible that the folicules on the sided just don't nake it, and have no receptores for it?

 

[Bryan]

Re: Q

So if 5AR-1 doesn't make those people who only have it and not 2 go bald why the hell do we inhibit it?!!!!!!

Exactly! That's why I'm not terribly concerned with it. I'm not saying that inhibiting the type 1 enzyme won't help at all, I'm just saying that it's not a major factor in hairloss.

abd another thing- IS DHT made by the folicules themselves?

OF COURSE follicles make it themselves! What did you think causes balding in the first place?

if so it is possible that the folicules on the sided just don't nake it, and have no receptores for it?

No. All human scalp hair follicles contain androgen receptors. The reason follicles on the side don't go bald is that they have a different RESPONSE to androgens.

Ask yourself the following very simple question: BEARD hair follicles make DHT and contain androgen receptors, right? So how come THEY don't go bald? :wink:

Androgens suppress the growth of scalp hair follicles, but stimulate the growth of most body hair follicles. They have a generally neutral effect on some other follicles, like the ones on the side of the head.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

so is there any agreement about whether it is good for 20 year olds to lower their prostate DHT 70%? All I've found are complicated conflicting articles.

 

[Bryan]

Actually, it'll lower it more than that! If I recall correctly, Proscar lowers DHT in the prostate by around 90% or so, probably because it's so rich in the type 2 enzyme.

I think it's clear that the younger you are when you start taking 5a-reductase inhibitors, the closer you approach the experience of the pseudohermaphrodites, who never get prostate enlargement or (apparently) prostate cancer. Starting them much later in life, however, is a different story, and may not be so benign.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

So it is a good precaution then. that is what my brother's Doctor said. But I read elsewhere that if people use finasteride now, they might get immune to it and not get the benifit they need later in life if their prostate does inlarge.