Niacin Wikipedia ...Interesting...

[Sparky4444]

Yeah I'm with you on that as i'm with many i can't tolerate minoxidil or rogaine.

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you've been on it a wk now, have you seen any less shedding?

I haven't really been looking or paying attention to shedding...Need to be on it for at least a couple of months before I can tell...

 

[bornthisway]

This is also used in trx2 (40mg) which has at least some users claiming regrowth. It also contains l-carnitine tartrate which in a 2007 study showed hair growth promotion.

 

[Sparky4444]

Scalp feels more chalky, if that makes any sense...don't know if that's a good or bad thing, but at least I am feeling something happening on my scalp...my scalp has felt lifeless for a long time but now it feels like its trying to come alive...

 

[nikemata]

Scalp feels more chalky, if that makes any sense...don't know if that's a good or bad thing, but at least I am feeling something happening on my scalp...my scalp has felt lifeless for a long time but now it feels like its trying to come alive...

Wow good to know that Sparx. Show some pics!

 

[Sparky4444]

Wow good to know that Sparx. Show some pics!

..until I know for sure I've found the magic bullet, I won't be putting up any pics....plus it is way too soon for this and I am waiting to hammer the DHT with Equol...

 

[nikemata]

What is this Eqoul?

 

[tysonscorner]

Hope this helps


Niacin flushes PGD2 through the receptor that have nothing to do with hair loss, Niacin flush doesn't make make you lose hair, in fact it makes PGD2 less available to be used with the receptor that damages the hair. And knowing that lowering PGD2 it more important that raising PGE and PGf2a, i would say Niacin is a must for anyone wanting to keep hair, based on all the information now available.

It just takes a bit of reading comprehension, i've seen people on another forum, after reading the two quotes above, talking about using aspirin... for god sake, Aspirin is used to inhibit the flush on the receptor that have nothing to do with hair
loss hence making PGD2 more available to the receptor that have everything to do with hairloss! On top of that, aspirin inhibits cox-1 pathway, that's the pathway for growing hair!

Some people just doesn't deserve hair.

My only problem is i can't find pure niacin in my country.

Do we know for sure that niacin flushes out existing PGD2 and not creates it? This seems to support the idea new PGD2 is create via niacin, so I'm not certain that using niacin and getting the flush will make less PGD2 available to the DP2 receptor. From what I can tell, niacin seems neutral so far, in regards to PGD2 (doesn't seem to effect the D2 receptor during the flush). If niacin causes a drop in PGD2 post-flush, that might be interesting, but I haven't found that yet. The niacin wikipedia page does say that after several weeks of a consistent does, the flushing usually goes away. I wonder if this is due less PGD2? I believe there are other mechanisms involved with the flush, as well. It could be an adaptation to something else.

The below link does say PGE2 increases with niacin. If an increase in PGE2 is beneficial, and niacin and at least neutral towards PGD2 (no effect on DP2), it may be beneficial.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3314457/

 

[tysonscorner]

From what I can tell, niacin seems neutral so far, in regards to PGD2 (doesn't seem to effect the D2 receptor during the flush).

Well, this is what has been pass around on the internet. I've been trying to verify this, and have found nothing to support that claim. Now, I'm pretty sure the niacin flush, via an increase PGD2, does interact with the DP2 receptor. It seems the confusion is due the fact that the DP2 receptor is not part of the flushing mechanism.

More on this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2779993/

After their synthesis, prostaglandins exert their effects locally through downstream receptors. There are currently five known prostaglandin receptor families .... and there are two DP receptor subtypes, DP[SUB]1[/SUB] and DP[SUB]2[/SUB], also called chemoattractant receptor homologous-molecule expressed on T helper type 2 (CRTH2).....

PGD[SUB]2[/SUB] can also act through the chemoattractant CRTH2 (DP[SUB]2[/SUB]) receptor, whose biological role appears to be regulating inflammatory allergic and asthmatic responses (36)...

Separate deletions of the DP[SUB]1[/SUB], EP[SUB]2[/SUB] and EP[SUB]4[/SUB] in mice result in 40%, 20% and 40% reductions in flushing response.... These experiments indicate that PGD[SUB]2[/SUB] and PGE[SUB]2[/SUB], signalling through the DP[SUB]1[/SUB], EP[SUB]2[/SUB] and EP[SUB]4[/SUB]receptors, are likely responsible for the flushing side effects of niacin.

What is particularly interesting is that niacin raises levels of both PGE2 and PGD2, but flushing tolerance very quickly develops. From what I can the mechanism in which tolerance develops is by reducing the amount of prostanoid secreted. The literature I've found seems to specifically identify PGD2 as to the prostanoid reduced (although they do not say PGE2 is not reduced as well - it would seems logical that it is reduced at least somewhat if PGD2 is via homeostasis). If this means that niacin eventually (seeming quickly), causes a PGD2/PGE2 balance change, that could be beneficial.

It would be nice if someone a little more familiar with biochem to review and see if they come to the same conclusion.

http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/content/70/6/1844.full

The nicotinic acid-induced flushing response is subject to a tolerance phenomenon that can be observed within days after repeated administration of nicotinic acid (Olsson, 1994)...It is therefore more likely that the nicotinic acidinduced prostanoid formation in Langerhans cells undergoes tachyphylaxis. This would be consistent with the observation that the development of tolerance to nicotinic acid-induced flushing is accompanied by a reduced formation of prostanoids (Stern et al., 1991).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2779993/

In a randomised dose escalation trial, the mean incidence of flushing episodes decreased from the highest (2.7 per patient per month) with a 500-mg dose, and decreased to 1.1 with a 2000-mg dose (14). The incidence of flushing decreases with time as quickly as 1 week (15), because tolerance develops via decreased prostanoid (PGD2, a major mediator of flushing) secretion with repeated doses of niacin (15)...

The production of PGI[SUB]2[/SUB] and PGD[SUB]2[/SUB]decreases after repetitive administration of niacin in parallel with the development of flushing tolerance (15)...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1855354?dopt=Abstract

The mechanism of tolerance to nicotinic acid flushing was determined in subjects during a 5-day course of treatment. ...However plasma levels of 9-alpha 11-beta prostaglandin F2, a stable metabolite of prostaglandin D2, became undetectable in most subjects with the development of tolerance. Thus tolerance is not associated with decreased levels of nicotinic acid or development of tolerance to the prostaglandin mediator, but with decreased levels of the mediator.

 

[Sparky4444]

Do we know for sure that niacin flushes out existing PGD2 and not creates it? This seems to support the idea new PGD2 is create via niacin, so I'm not certain that using niacin and getting the flush will make less PGD2 available to the DP2 receptor. From what I can tell, niacin seems neutral so far, in regards to PGD2 (doesn't seem to effect the D2 receptor during the flush). If niacin causes a drop in PGD2 post-flush, that might be interesting, but I haven't found that yet. The niacin wikipedia page does say that after several weeks of a consistent does, the flushing usually goes away. I wonder if this is due less PGD2? I believe there are other mechanisms involved with the flush, as well. It could be an adaptation to something else.

The below link does say PGE2 increases with niacin. If an increase in PGE2 is beneficial, and niacin and at least neutral towards PGD2 (no effect on DP2), it may be beneficial.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3314457/

yeah, I am still not clear on just what Niacin will do in the end with PGD2 and how it affects the concentrations in the scalp...From what I've read, Niacin does not create PGD2 from scratch, it releases it from cell's, so in that sense it does create it, in one sense. Also, there seems to be more interaction of Niacin on PGE2 based on one study I read...

...Also, no one knows if PGD2 is the root cause....The studies said there are higher than normal concentrations localized to the scalp....We need PGD2 in our body so reducing that in our systems would NOT be good....For me, it seems as though PGD2 get's "trapped" in the follicle and that DHT has a role in that....We do know that Niacin is good for vasodilation and for the scalp, that is definately a good thing...

either way, I've been taking Niacin for about 3-1/2 weeks and I have not noticed my hair falling out any worse than before...if anything, my scalp feels "sturdier" if that makes any sense from a diffuse thinning standpoint

 

[tysonscorner]

I've read that that some people use the niacin flush to alleviate allergies. They attribute the improvement to the system "flushing" out histamine, but it looks like that is not really how it works. If it works at all, it seems they developing a tolerance to the flush by reduced PGD2 in response to niacin.

One very crude, but maybe interesting experiment would be for an HairLossTalk.com forum member with significant allergies (specifically asthmatic allergies) to try the niacin flush for a week or so. Once tolerance occurs, see if any symptoms are alleviated. If so, that likely means they have dropped PGD2 levels, and in-turn, reduced the activation of the PD2 receptor.

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I just submitted a post supporting the possibility that building a tolerance to the niacin flush involves reduced PGD2, but it is not showing up. Awaiting moderator approval?

 

[Sparky4444]

I've read that that some people use the niacin flush to alleviate allergies. They attribute the improvement to the system "flushing" out histamine, but it looks like that is not really how it works. If it works at all, it seems they developing a tolerance to the flush by reduced PGD2 in response to niacin.

One very crude, but maybe interesting experiment would be for an HairLossTalk.com forum member with significant allergies (specifically asthmatic allergies) to try the niacin flush for a week or so. Once tolerance occurs, see if any symptoms are alleviated. If so, that likely means they have dropped PGD2 levels, and in-turn, reduced the activation of the PD2 receptor.

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I just submitted a post supporting the possibility that building a tolerance to the niacin flush involves reduced PGD2, but it is not showing up. Awaiting moderator approval?

Before I started taking Niacin, I had allergic rash breakouts ALL the time, randomly...My skin was flare up for no apparent reason..Or it would flare up after being stressed with exercise or whatever....Now with all these flushes, I have noticed a definite decrease in these rash breakouts...

 

[tysonscorner]

Before I started taking Niacin, I had allergic rash breakouts ALL the time, randomly...My skin was flare up for no apparent reason..Or it would flare up after being stressed with exercise or whatever....Now with all these flushes, I have noticed a definite decrease in these rash breakouts...

That's interesting. The most compelling evidence would be from someone with asthmatic symptoms as the DP2 receptor, the ultimate target, is known to be specifically involved. Not sure about rashes, but worth looking into.

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Before I started taking Niacin, I had allergic rash breakouts ALL the time, randomly...My skin was flare up for no apparent reason..Or it would flare up after being stressed with exercise or whatever....Now with all these flushes, I have noticed a definite decrease in these rash breakouts...

What I tried to post yesterday about PGE2/PGD2 ratio (PGD2 levels drop with tolerance, maybe not PGE2) finally posted. It's on page 3. Check it out.

 

[Sparky4444]

...well, I went for a massage yesterday and there was definately way less skin irritation and welting than what I've been seeing over the past year or so...I think it's the combination of my Nitric Oxide levels recovering and bombing with Niacin....Worked out this morning and usually I get the rash appear on my wrists, but this morning, nada....

this is very, very interesting...

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no talk at all about the link between DHT and PGD2....there has to be one, somehow...Niacin promotes increased PGD2 levels in the blood serum, but something is going on to trap PGD2 in the cells of hair follicles....DHT has to be implicated somewhere with this...

...having said all that, I am convinced Niacin does not cause your hair to fall out because of increased PGD2 production....Niacin, it appears, is decreasing inflammation episodes elsewhere on my body...what's going on in the scalp is a different ball-game..

...but you would have to expect that the bio-chemical events in the scalp are different than the rest of the body...I mean, hair on the scalp is unlike any other hair on our bodies...definitely a unique system

 

[rwhairlosstalk]

before i dig deep into reading these 4 pages has niacin reduced anyone's shed or rate of hair loss?

 

[tysonscorner]

before i dig deep into reading these 4 pages has niacin reduced anyone's shed or rate of hair loss?

There will likely never be a consensus as most people aren't using this as a stand-alone treatment. Any positive response in hair growth would likely be attributed to other parts of the regimen.

If the PGD2/PGD2 theory is accurate, based on what I have read, there is a decent chance taking niacin (flushing kind) to the point of developing tolerance to the flush and continuing, may have a positive effect on hair loss. I was hoping for someone with a better understanding of biochem to review and see if they came to the same conclusion.

Even if it doesn't pan out in terms of hair loss, there are plenty of other reasons to supplement with niacin -> significant drop in LDL and triglycerides, significant rise in HDL and HGH. So there is obvious benefits to lipid profiles and cardiovascular health. HGH improves muscle growth and fat loss. Elevated triglycerides has been tabbed by some as the cause of leptin resistance in the brain (leptin cannot cross the BBB due to elevated triglycerides), resulting in overeating/obesity.

 

[Sparky4444]

There will likely never be a consensus as most people aren't using this as a stand-alone treatment. Any positive response in hair growth would likely be attributed to other parts of the regimen.

If the PGD2/PGD2 theory is accurate, based on what I have read, there is a decent chance taking niacin (flushing kind) to the point of developing tolerance to the flush and continuing, may have a positive effect on hair loss. I was hoping for someone with a better understanding of biochem to review and see if they came to the same conclusion.

Even if it doesn't pan out in terms of hair loss, there are plenty of other reasons to supplement with niacin -> significant drop in LDL and triglycerides, significant rise in HDL and HGH. So there is obvious benefits to lipid profiles and cardiovascular health. HGH improves muscle growth and fat loss. Elevated triglycerides has been tabbed by some as the cause of leptin resistance in the brain (leptin cannot cross the BBB due to elevated triglycerides), resulting in overeating/obesity.

yeah, that is the key for me...at the end of the day, the bottom line is a person's health...I struggle with back issues, sore and achy muscles all the time, TMJ and headaches, floaters and blurred vision...man, it's been a tough couple of years since I turned 40....hairloss is adding extra stress that I just don't need, but the bottom line is that if you feel healthy then you can overcome life's other hurdles...

...so yeah, I'm taking Niacin even if it doesn't directly help my hairloss -- way too good for your health...the same with Fish Oil, zinc (for men over 40) and Vitamin E tocotrienols....If you're going to be bald, may as well be healthy because life doesn't end when you lose your hair...and the fact is that most people don't judge you on your hair....and if they do, they ain't worth the time and it's their problem

 

[Jaded]

Do we know for sure that niacin flushes out existing PGD2 and not creates it? This seems to support the idea new PGD2 is create via niacin, so I'm not certain that using niacin and getting the flush will make less PGD2 available to the DP2 receptor. From what I can tell, niacin seems neutral so far, in regards to PGD2 (doesn't seem to effect the D2 receptor during the flush). If niacin causes a drop in PGD2 post-flush, that might be interesting, but I haven't found that yet. The niacin wikipedia page does say that after several weeks of a consistent does, the flushing usually goes away. I wonder if this is due less PGD2? I believe there are other mechanisms involved with the flush, as well. It could be an adaptation to something else.

The below link does say PGE2 increases with niacin. If an increase in PGE2 is beneficial, and niacin and at least neutral towards PGD2 (no effect on DP2), it may be beneficial.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3314457/

Sorry for the late reply, not a full fledge user of the forum:

Here:
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/17/6682.abstract

What this clearly say, is that in the Niacin flush, PGD2 are binded to the DP1 receptor... DP1 receptor has nothing to do with hairloss!

Now PGD2 is coming from somewhere, it isn't coming from the thin air, so if you binded it to the DP1 receptor with Niacin, there will be less for the DP2 receptor, the one that damages the hair and that everyone wants to block...

I remember some obscure report of some guy saying he regrew his hair after starting using Niaspan, he wasn't trying to sell anything, he was only telling his story.

I'm about to start a Nicain\cetirizine regime. I had relative success with minoxidil, revivogen and black tea, but then i went through a reflex hyperandrogenicity... it was horrible, awful itching in the scalp, full of pimples, oily face... massive, massive sheds. Only good thing was the massive and constant erections, a breeze would give me a erection.

I'm starting to think my DHT levels were ok, not my main problem, or my body just doesn't like the blocking... i don't know. Going the pgd2 way now.

 

[Sparky4444]

The problem with Niacin are the flushes...they just aren't fun, no matter which way you slice it...but since I've been doing topical CET, my flushes have pretty much been gone...

 

[resu]

Guess the niacin in sesame seeds isn't enough to cause flushes because I eat two table spoons of sesame seeds a day and I haven't experienced any changes, it just burns my fat and I get iron and other minerals. Oh and it also lowers my heart-rate, mine's too high usually between 88-94 bpm. I also have cold hands and feet, blisters in the winter are common with me, 19ºC is a nightmare, bellow that I just can't take it.

 

[Sparky4444]

Guess the niacin in sesame seeds isn't enough to cause flushes because I eat two table spoons of sesame seeds a day and I haven't experienced any changes, it just burns my fat and I get iron and other minerals. Oh and it also lowers my heart-rate, mine's too high usually between 88-94 bpm. I also have cold hands and feet, blisters in the winter are common with me, 19ºC is a nightmare, bellow that I just can't take it.

Nope...you need full-on Niacin...you should check your Nitric Oxide levels to...I eat beets every day, just like having an apple-a-day, and I also supplement with InflaNOX from Axioma Health...using my Neo40 test strips, my NO levels are back to normal and I don't freeze up as bad as I used to...my NO was depleted last year and it was miserable...