New Studies Show Vit D Implicated In Hair Loss And Calcipotriol

coolio

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Not for 12 hours at a time. Take a look at the addiction forums, it's a problem like never before. Have you not seen the study showing the refractory period is eliminated when presented with new mates? Kids before didn't have an unlimited stream of hardcore pornographic videos at their fingertips 24/7.

AFAIK the refractory period thing has never been shown to work with p**rn, only with real women.

(And I would wager that the phenomenon might hold up for a couple of additional real women. That's not the same thing as cumming dozens of times for dozens of hours. Your semen supply is not that big and your production is not that fast. The extra women aren't giving you more total c*m, they are giving you the ability to empty your stored supply faster.)

It was completely normal for teenage boys to jack off for hours at a time before the internet. I know, I was there, and so were my friends. Eventually you've got no semen to shoot even if you can keep an erection. Eventually the erection gets more difficult to keep and your skin just hurts from too much rubbing. All this is perfectly achievable with a few old playboy mags. If you don't have p**rn you still have potent memories of the hot girl in your math class the day before. At that age you can get horny looking at a hole in the wall.

The internet just provides a bigger stack of Playboy mags. It doesn't change the fundamentals of any of it.

The "problem like never before" is that some kids spend more hours of the day looking at p**rn. It doesn't raise the biological limits of what their bodies can do.


TLDR - teenage kids were horny before the internet.
 
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benjt2

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so basically low vitamin D is telling the top of the scalp to go bald so this poor kid absorb more sunlight.
I don't think baldness is an adaptation to increase vitamin D synthesis.

Maybe scalp hair serves the same purpose as expensive visual signals in the animal kingdom. Why did we lose all our fur except for scalp hair? Why not the scalp hair too? Why are men with baldness consistently rated as less attractive? Why are all of us here, on these forums? Because scalp hair is a signal with impact on attractiveness.

Loss of scalp hair in males is strongly associated with age, metabolic syndrome/diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and prostate cancer. In women, it is strongly associated with age, hormonal issues related to infertility (like PCOS) are iron deficiency. Thus it is a signal for these issues, too.

If scalp hair is indeed a signal of attractiveness and thus in extension of health, it makes sense that this signaling gene (keeping scalp hair) prevailed along with genes with a genetic preference on the side of females to actually select for this health marker. Just like peacock tails, fur quality, colorful patterning or any other expensive signal in the animal kingdom. That would also explain why scalp hair loss might be multifactorial - it should be hard to have perfect (NW1) hair. You need to have several factors right in order to be able to signal your good health. If one factor is unhealthy, you will lose hair at a slow pace; the more factors out of order or the more out of order one factor, the quicker your progression.

These are, of course, pure speculations. I personally think though that scalp hair (both male and female) is more of a health signal and baldness probably not an adaptation to generate more vitamin D.


All these speculations don't really matter though. What matters is only whether vitamin D plays a role in progression speed or not, no matter if for health signaling reasons or for environmental adaptation reasons.


I had another idea in the meantime: We know by now that the vitamin D receptor plays a role in anagen initiation and in the process which determines, during wound healing, whether skin should grow back bald or with hair (see, for one paper, here; there was a more recent one from 2019 or 2020 though with human skin as well).
On these forums, many people tried microneedling according to the Follica and the Dhurat protocols, me included (following Follica's). Most people, in fact, had no success and all healed skin grew back without hair (including on my head; I tried the follica protocol for a year without any success).
Maybe the missing link is vitamin D? If vitamin D greatly influences whether skin grows back bald or with hair during healing, maybe it needs to be elevated during the healing period after a microneedling session. Might also explain why there were many reports of people following Rob's scalp massage protocol who only saw success when combining vit D and scalp massages but who didn't get success on only one of these components.
Just an idea.

I'm considering upping my vit D intake to 4,000 IU a day and picking up Follica-style needling again; or, alternatively, Follica needling + topical vit D. Just to give this a try for a few months.
 

waynakyo

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@benjt2 What I said is something I pulled out of my *** at the moment. The fact that it is gender specific (by and large) makes this theory not so credible.

Re-dermarolling, did you check whether you have dermatitis, since apparently it is not good to dermarol under such conditions. Did your scalp itch after dermarolling?

Also have you heard people applying D topically?
 

inmyhead

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@benjt2 What I said is something I pulled out of my *** at the moment. The fact that it is gender specific (by and large) makes this theory not so credible.

Re-dermarolling, did you check whether you have dermatitis, since apparently it is not good to dermarol under such conditions. Did your scalp itch after dermarolling?

Also have you heard people applying D topically?


This theory is ridiculous, whenever someone proposes a theory, they should think about:
1. Why 5ARI work.
2. Why anti-androgens work.
3. Why it's almost always males who get male pattern baldness (That's why it's called male pattern baldness).

Without these three points, it just turns into RayPeat forum where everyone just says baldness has nothing to do with genetics and it's just you being unhealthy.
 

benjt2

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@benjt2 What I said is something I pulled out of my *** at the moment. The fact that it is gender specific (by and large) makes this theory not so credible.

Re-dermarolling, did you check whether you have dermatitis, since apparently it is not good to dermarol under such conditions. Did your scalp itch after dermarolling?

Also have you heard people applying D topically?
Topical vitamin D was successfully used to treat other forms of baldness, including areata and Telogen Effluvium, and was very effective (s. for example here).

I also found this quote to be interesting:
Vitmain D level in female pattern hair loss with normal androgen level said:
Vitamin D is necessary for maintenance of the different vital functions in the body. Its role has been demonstrated in different diseases such as breast cancer, prostatic cancer, and cardiovascular diseases, as well as in different skin diseases such as psoriasis. It has been found that topical vitamin D analog in combination with steroids is superior to steroid alone in the management in psoriasis, which reflects the role of vitamin D in skin differentiation and proliferation process

I don't know of any studies which used topical vitamin D to treat Androgenetic Alopecia, though. Not going to try this on my own, will stick to the supplements for now. Already did my first Follica-like needling session today (but didn't quite manage, don't have any numbing creme here and the Follica protocol with my TBPHP pen is not so easy to replicate).

In all honesty, I am not very optimistic that vitamin D plus Follica-style needling is the magic combination which will suddenly give me regrowth. You would think that somebody would've already tried that. Then again, vitamin D was completely overlooked in medicine until a couple of years ago and even more so in Androgenetic Alopecia. Maybe no one thought it could be that, so no one tried it yet. Who knows. In a few months we will know more, I'll go with vitamin D at 4000 IU/d for 12 months now.

Current state: NW3 bald, strong diffuse vertex thinning in NW4, age 31.

My regimen right now looks as follows:
- minoxidil 5% once per day (except needling days)
- anti-inflammatory diet (adjusted vegan diet: no alcohol, strongly limited sugar, strongly limited carbs, limited grains, but added eggs and fish)
- Follica-style needling every two weeks

My new regimen, starting from today for (hopefully) 12 months:
- minoxidil 5% per day (except needling days)
- anti-inflammatory diet (adjusted vegan diet: no alcohol, strongly limited sugar, strongly limited carbs, limited grains, but added eggs and fish)
- Follica-style needling every two weeks
- vitamin D 4000 IU per day, split into once in the morning and once in the evening

This theory is ridiculous, whenever someone proposes a theory, they should think about:
1. Why 5ARI work.
2. Why anti-androgens work.
3. Why it's almost always males who get male pattern baldness (That's why it's called male pattern baldness).

Without these three points, it just turns into RayPeat forum where everyone just says baldness has nothing to do with genetics and it's just you being unhealthy.
I thought it was common knowledge by now that these questions are answered by the sex-specific differences in the immune system. The male immune system uses DHT in inflammatory responses in certain tissues much more than the female immune system does. If you take anti-androgens or 5ARIs, you are killing that part of the inflammatory response of the male immune system. See, for example, this article for sex differences in the immune system. This is also part of the reason why viruses affect men and women differently.
For the role of DHT in inflammatory response, see for example here and here.


Edit: Just thought of something. One of the best microneedling responders ever, Somebody/Alex, switched to a traveling lifesytyle (in Asia) at the same time as picking up needling. Maybe his move gave him way more vitamin D than he had before, hence explaining his results that most microneedlers never achieved?
 
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StayPositive

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Topical vitamin D was successfully used to treat other forms of baldness, including areata and Telogen Effluvium, and was very effective (s. for example here).

I also found this quote to be interesting:


I don't know of any studies which used topical vitamin D to treat Androgenetic Alopecia, though. Not going to try this on my own, will stick to the supplements for now. Already did my first Follica-like needling session today (but didn't quite manage, don't have any numbing creme here and the Follica protocol with my TBPHP pen is not so easy to replicate).

In all honesty, I am not very optimistic that vitamin D plus Follica-style needling is the magic combination which will suddenly give me regrowth. You would think that somebody would've already tried that. Then again, vitamin D was completely overlooked in medicine until a couple of years ago and even more so in Androgenetic Alopecia. Maybe no one thought it could be that, so no one tried it yet. Who knows. In a few months we will know more, I'll go with vitamin D at 4000 IU/d for 12 months now.

Current state: NW3 bald, strong diffuse vertex thinning in NW4, age 31.

My regimen right now looks as follows:
- minoxidil 5% once per day (except needling days)
- anti-inflammatory diet (adjusted vegan diet: no alcohol, strongly limited sugar, strongly limited carbs, limited grains, but added eggs and fish)
- Follica-style needling every two weeks

My new regimen, starting from today for (hopefully) 12 months:
- minoxidil 5% per day (except needling days)
- anti-inflammatory diet (adjusted vegan diet: no alcohol, strongly limited sugar, strongly limited carbs, limited grains, but added eggs and fish)
- Follica-style needling every two weeks
- vitamin D 4000 IU per day, split into once in the morning and once in the evening


I thought it was common knowledge by now that these questions are answered by the sex-specific differences in the immune system. The male immune system uses DHT in inflammatory responses in certain tissues much more than the female immune system does. If you take anti-androgens or 5ARIs, you are killing that part of the inflammatory response of the male immune system. See, for example, this article for sex differences in the immune system. This is also part of the reason why viruses affect men and women differently.
For the role of DHT in inflammatory response, see for example here and here.


Edit: Just thought of something. One of the best microneedling responders ever, Somebody/Alex, switched to a traveling lifesytyle (in Asia) at the same time as picking up needling. Maybe his move gave him way more vitamin D than he had before, hence explaining his results that most microneedlers never achieved?

I take a topical vitamin d (calcipotriol) for scalp psoriasis, and while it works wonder for my condition, it's doing nothing for male pattern baldness . And i apply it every day before bed. I am regular. It does not work for male pattern baldness
 

StayPositive

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I won't argue most of it, I just think the role of all of it is minor. The major factor is AR sensitivity and DHT. Metabolic syndrome speeds that up somewhat, but the twin studies show that it's years not decades, and one norwood difference, not five. Diet-induced inflammation is minor, and not a concern. Only localized inflammation caused by skin disorders is a concern. It sure is funny that inflammation supposedly caused by high meat and dairy diets causes hair only on the top of your head to fall out, but not the rest of your body. According to your theory it should cause hair loss everywhere if the mechanism is inflammation, but it seems to be the opposite. Those with Androgenetic Alopecia tend to have more body hair. So inflammation is good for body hair, why? You're still confused about the difference between correlation and causation. Smokers have higher T levels than non-smokers. Does that mean smoking increases T, or that the type of people who are likely to smoke just happen to correlate with the same type of people who are likely to have higher T?

What do you think about doxycycline? It works wonder for rosacea and inflammatory acne at sub-antimicrobial doses(50mg max per day) . Do you think it can be helpful for male pattern baldness?
 

benjt2

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I take a topical vitamin d (calcipotriol) for scalp psoriasis, and while it works wonder for my condition, it's doing nothing for male pattern baldness . And i apply it every day before bed. I am regular. It does not work for male pattern baldness
Since when do you apply it? What's the dose (mg, ml, concentration, IU - if you don't know, can you link the product and tell us how much of it you use per day)? How do you apply it and where? All over your scalp?
 

StayPositive

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Since when do you apply it? What's the dose (mg, ml, concentration, IU - if you don't know, can you link the product and tell us how much of it you use per day)? How do you apply it and where? All over your scalp?

Since March 2020 i think. It's called daivonex. I use it every night and cover the entire scalp. I use 2 tubes of 150g per month. I use a lot. It does work extremely well for psoriasis, the best thing i have tried for sure. But it simply does not work at all for male pattern baldness
 
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benjt2

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Thanks for the info. Pretty strong case against vitamin D. I'll still give it a try for a few months, even if the chances of it doing anything are slim. Vitamin D supplements aren't expensive after all.
 

benjt2

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And another interesting study: "Study of gene expression alteration in male androgenetic alopecia: evidence of predominant molecular signalling pathways".

Money quote:
In addition, lower expression of CYP27B1 in patients with Androgenetic Alopecia supports the notion that changes in vitamin D metabolism contributes to hair loss. [...] This study provides compelling evidence for distinct molecular events contributing to alopecia.

What's also interesting is the following:
In particular, one of these events depends on the dysregulated expression of proopiomelanocortin
Proopiomelanocortin is upregulated through sunlight exposure, but I don't know if also through vitamin D or not.


One more paper, "Vitamin D and Wnt/b-Catenin Signaling":
1,25(OH)2D3/VDR inhibits b-catenin/TCF transcriptional activity in colon cancer cells, while upregulation of the Wnt/b-catenin pathway by either ligand-activated or unliganded VDR promotes bone formation or hair follicle differentiation, respectively.


And the third paper for this post, "The Vitamin D Receptor Is a Wnt Effector that Controls Hair Follicle Differentiation and Specifies Tumor Type in Adult Epidermis":
We have investigated how Wnt and vitamin D receptor signals regulate epidermal differentiation. Many epidermal genes induced by b-catenin, including the stem cell marker keratin 15, contain vitamin D response elements (VDREs) and several are induced independently of TCF/Lef. The VDR is required for b-catenin induced hair follicle formation in adult epidermis, and the vitamin D analog EB1089 synergises with b-catenin to stimulate hair differentiation.
 
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INT

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Peer-reviewed means nothing anymore, the whole process has become such a joke. You really have to read any study yourself and see if there are any issues with it

?? So if you place you own judgement above peer-reviewed research, where do you base your judgement on?

I've seen those studies paid for by vegans that say milk causes cancer, and they claim it's because of IGF-1, but the IGF-1 in milk does not get absorbed by the body, so how is this possible? I am in my mid 30s and I still carded, I think I'm doing something right with my diet. Meanwhile, every vegan I know looks so unhealthy. Their skin and hair are gross.

Come on man. Who do you think has a bigger lobby behind it: the meat and dairy industry or the kale and lentil industry? Also: my grandmother turned 100 and she smoked since she was 22. So HoW iS tHaT PoSsIble?

If you think every vegan you know looks unhealthy, you simply do not know enough vegans.
 
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pegasus2

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?? So if you place you own judgement above peer-reviewed research, where do you base your judgement on?



Come on man. Who do you think has a bigger lobby behind it: the meat and dairy industry or the kale and lentil industry? Also: my grandmother turned 100 and she smoked since she was 22. So HoW iS tHaT PoSsIble?

If you think every vegan you know looks unhealthy, you simply do not know enough vegans.
Vegan triggered. You guys are everywhere, and you feel you have a moral imperative to convert everyone. It's a religion to you.

Researchers who have examined peer review often find evidence that it works barely better than chance at keeping poor-quality studies out of journals or that it doesn't work at all. That conclusion has been arrived at in experiments like this one or this one and systematic reviews that bring together all the relevant studies, like this one and this one.

You can't take something as a given simply because it's peer-reviewed.
 

INT

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Vegan triggered. You guys are everywhere, and you feel you have a moral imperative to convert everyone. It's a religion to you.

Researchers who have examined peer review often find evidence that it works barely better than chance at keeping poor-quality studies out of journals or that it doesn't work at all. That conclusion has been arrived at in experiments like this one or this one and systematic reviews that bring together all the relevant studies, like this one and this one.

You can't take something as a given simply because it's peer-reviewed.

Nope, not a vegan. Just kind of fascinated by the scientifically illiterate and dogmatic hate that those who are vegan often receive. Your attempt to put me a label on me that would make it easier for you to attack me unfortunately failed.

Also, you did not answer my question.
 

pegasus2

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Nope, not a vegan. Just kind of fascinated by the scientifically illiterate and dogmatic hate that those who are vegan often receive. Your attempt to put me a label on me that would make it easier for you to attack me unfortunately failed.

Also, you did not answer my question.
You're intellectually dishonest. I linked you an article with peer reviewed studies showing you why can't trust peer reviewed studies blindly. You ignore it, and continue to pretend that you can trust all peer reviewed studies except for the ones that show the peer review prices is deeply flawed. You're a joke.
 
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partysnacks

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And another interesting study: "Study of gene expression alteration in male androgenetic alopecia: evidence of predominant molecular signalling pathways".

Money quote:


What's also interesting is the following:

Proopiomelanocortin is upregulated through sunlight exposure, but I don't know if also through vitamin D or not.


One more paper, "Vitamin D and Wnt/b-Catenin Signaling":



And the third paper for this post, "The Vitamin D Receptor Is a Wnt Effector that Controls Hair Follicle Differentiation and Specifies Tumor Type in Adult Epidermis":

The first referenced study has a really nice graphic of the genomic pathways:
1610139304214.png

Schematic representation of signalling pathways and functional networks in Androgenetic Alopecia. Modulated genes in androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia) are indicated in blue when overexpressed or in red when underexpressed in patients with Androgenetic Alopecia vs. healthy controls. Asterisks indicate in which compartment(s) of the hair follicle the gene expression was reported to be detected (*hair matrix, **dermal papilla, ***outer root sheath or ****inner root sheath),


And something I haven't seen much mention of:
The notion that Androgenetic Alopecia exhibits an alteration of vitamin biosynthesis was supported by the decreased expression of CYP27B1 in 86% of the patients with Androgenetic Alopecia (Table 5, P < 0·02). Indeed, expression of CYP27B1 is involved in the synthesis of calcitriol, which elicits a protective role in radiation‐induced alopecia.73 Such reduced expression of CYP27B1 in Androgenetic Alopecia can be related to the underexpression of tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) that we observed (Table 5, P < 0·05). Known as a transcriptional target of vitamin D3,74 TH is involved in the first step of l‐DOPA synthesis, with activation of tyrosinase leading to melanogenesis.75 Thus, in addition to the roles of POMC and ASIP in hair differentiation and melanogenesis towards their respective impacts on CTNNB1, a decrease of TH might explain the progressive replacement of terminal hairs by smaller hairs with less pigmentation observed in Androgenetic Alopecia.

Maybe I'm misreading this, but I wonder if increasing focusing on increasing expression of tyrosine hydroxylase would be more effective than just Vitamin D.
 

benjt2

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It's always better to target upstream, where possible. The way I read this section, vitamin D is upstream of TH. As we can directly supplement vitamin D, vitamin D is also easier to target. On top of that, vitamin D level elevation over longer periods of time also upregulates VDR.

All in all, given the time frame of Androgenetic Alopecia progression and of hair cycles in general, I'm really wondering if vitamin D would be beneficial - but we would need to supplement it to very high levels (2,000 to 4,000 IU/d) for months, maybe up to two years to see the first results.
 

inmyhead

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It's always better to target upstream, where possible. The way I read this section, vitamin D is upstream of TH. As we can directly supplement vitamin D, vitamin D is also easier to target. On top of that, vitamin D level elevation over longer periods of time also upregulates VDR.

All in all, given the time frame of Androgenetic Alopecia progression and of hair cycles in general, I'm really wondering if vitamin D would be beneficial - but we would need to supplement it to very high levels (2,000 to 4,000 IU/d) for months, maybe up to two years to see the first results.
Are you trolling? People have been supplementing such and higher doses of vitamin D for decades and it does not work against male pattern baldness.
This is getting ridiculous. 2021 and people getting back to vitamin D, scalp massage, progesterone, bad posture and another theories based on bad evidence.
 

Gegen

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Are you trolling? People have been supplementing such and higher doses of vitamin D for decades and it does not work against male pattern baldness.
This is getting ridiculous. 2021 and people getting back to vitamin D, scalp massage, progesterone, bad posture and another theories based on bad evidence.
Yeah all these theories are ridiculous. It's all about equilibrated diet.
 

Armando Jose

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Yeah all these theories are ridiculous. It's all about equilibrated diet.

Theories are theories, but are inocues? An example scalp massages are not detritemal, but is the same for finas, progesterone or dermarrolling?
 
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