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Microneedling Faqs: Procedures, Studies And Such

Discussion in 'New Research, Studies, and Technologies' started by Bill_Russo, Jan 4, 2019.

  1. Bill_Russo

    Bill_Russo Experienced Member My Regimen

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    Hey there, people!

    Since the other thread is becoming very long and we repeat ourselves a lot, I thought about opening this thread with what I consider the FAQs, procedures, studies, etc., so that we can point newcomers to this thread.

    Comment with something you think is important that's not on the list. Since I'm pretty active, I'll answer requests rather fast.

    WHAT YOU NEED
    1.-
    A cheap dermaroller or a manual stamp might suffice. However, we suggest you get an electric dermapen, since it wounds more effectively and most users report it's less painful than a roller.

    Dermaroller vs Dermapen:

    roller-vs-pen.gif

    Most popular pens:
    If you think you can spend $200, the Derminator 2 is the best pen out there. It appears that you can get a refund if you send them pictures showing clear results:

    EUROPEAN PLUG:
    https://owndoc.shop/Dermaneedling/Derminator digital needling device/Derminator 2/DERMINATOR 2 digi-needler (European plug)

    US PLUG:
    https://owndoc.shop/Dermaneedling/Derminator digital needling device/Derminator 2/DERMINATOR 2 digi-needler (US plug)/

    UK PLUG:
    https://owndoc.shop/Dermaneedling/Derminator digital needling device/Derminator 2/DERMINATOR 2 digi-needler (UK plug)/

    AUSTRALIAN PLUG:
    https://owndoc.shop/Dermaneedling/Derminator digital needling device/Derminator 2/DERMINATOR 2 digi-needler (Australian plug)/

    Derminator cartridges are not compatible with Derminator 2.

    BEWARE: The costumer service is made out of people in the spectrum. Some users who've asked a question have reported rude replies and the refusal to do business. I personally didn't have a problem when I asked, but tread carefully.

    If your budget is tighter, you can just get a Dr. Pen off of Amazon.

    Titanium needles are advised.

    If you settle for a dermaroller, be careful:



    2.- A disinfectant such as 70% alcohol, to sanitize the roller/stamp or cartridges (using the same cartridge twice with proper hygiene won't cause problems, but it is recommended to change them after one use to be extra safe) and Betadine to sanitize your scalp (users report this is not necessary and that rinsing your head profusely is enough if you use a pen and change cartridges).
    Note: Make sure you don't soak the silicone cover of the cartridges with alcohol, as it will destroy it.

    Further instructions here: https://dermaroller.owndoc.com/dermaroller-instructions.pdf

    3.- Numbing cream such as 4%-5% lidocaine. Beware: to prevent allergic reactions, apply it on a 3x3 cm section of your skin and wait for half an hour. If nothing happens, you're good to go!

    4.- Microneedling by itself has proved to give results. However, to get the best out of it, combining it with 5% Minoxidil is the way to go.

    PROCEDURE
    1.-
    Wash your scalp with shampoo.

    2.- If you're using it, apply numbing cream about half an hour before needling, then wash it off thoroughly before you begin needling.

    3.- You can do this however you feel most comfortable with. Derminator people recommend doing small circles. The Chinese study did 3-4 passes on all the subjects.
    The visual example we have is this: needle each area doing 2 horizontal passes, 2 vertical passes and 2 diagonal passes, for a total of 6 passes. Redness and small blood spots are the goal here. If you don't see blood at first this does not mean you didn't wound properly, as redness is the what the studies went for and blood spots can appear the more sessions you do.
    Video by @74775446:


    4.- Make sure you sanitize your roller/stamp or cartridge, if you're reusing it.

    STUDIES
    There are several studies about dermarolling, but the most popular ones are the Indian study carried out in 2013 and the Chinese study carried out in 2017:

    Indian study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3746236/

    Key points:
    - Microneedling with a 1.5 mm dermaroller once a week.
    - If you're using it; apply 1 ml 5% Minoxidil twice a day.

    Chinese study: https://www.docdroid.net/Q4cnC2V/101080-at-1476417220171376094.pdf

    Key points:
    - Microneedling with a 1.5-2.5 mm needle using an electric pen twice a month.
    - If you're using it; apply Minoxidil right after needling.

    Plenty of people have seen results with different frequencies and lengths, but if you want to follow something with clinical evidence, here it is. Also, keep in mind that the goal here is to wound, and that is achieved with a >1.5 mm depth.

    It should be noted that a very important part of being able to stick to something on the long run is by setting yourself up for success. If you think you'll get lazy by doing weekly sessions, then you can do them every 2 weeks or even monthly. There are many variables and there's no such thing as a single "best length and frequency", so choose what you think is best for you and your hair.

    Oh, and you wanna have this picture in mind:

    1920px-wound_healing_phases-png.png

    The longer you wait between session, the better your scalp will recover. You can actually do, say, 2 mm once every 2 weeks and then switch to once a month as soon as you're happy with your results. This frequency serves as maintenance.

    Do not go into the sun for 7 days after a session. Wear a hat during that time. You can stop rolling during the summer if you wish to do so.

    Results appear to stay for some months after you stop rolling.

    Other studies:
    Microneedling in non-responders to finasteride or Minoxidil: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4458936/

    Small study doing monthly microneedling sessions with 1.5 mm needles on 2 patients who previously responded poorly to Minoxidil (broken link): http://www.surgicalcosmetic.org.br/...ica-de-microinfusao-de-medicamentos-pela-pele

    BENEFITS
    Apart from the potential regrowth or thickening of your hair, needling has proved to make the scalp feel alive, healthy and more sensitive to the touch. It also reduces sebum and the chronic itching considerably.

    HOW MANY NEEDLES DO PEOPLE USE?
    Generally speaking, people go for dermarollers with 192 needles, dermastamps with 80-140 needles and 12 needle cartridges for the pens.

    DID ANYONE GET GOOD RESULTS WITHOUT USING MINOXIDIL OR FINASTERIDE?
    Why yes. In this forum: 2young2retire restored 2 Norwoods with extreme wounding. Look up "2young2retire mastering the potential cure" to see his progress.

    MyThinningConfidence made excellent progress without them. Here's his story: https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...or-finasteride-mechanical-stimulation.116396/

    Kitedude is another example (needling + scalp exercises for 5 years; used Minoxidil for 6 months in the beginning but then dropped it).

    Another user from the StopAGA days reported results without using Minoxidil or Finasteride (needling for 3 years using 2 mm needles + detumescence therapy and supplements like MSM and ecklonia cava)

    You want to combine needling with Minoxidil to get the best results. Just know that, if you can't tolerate it, you have the option of needling without it; it's just not as effective (proved to be better than Minoxidil alone) and results can take longer to show.

    HOW LONG UNTIL I SEE RESULTS?
    This varies from person to person.
    If you want to properly assess how good a responder you are, it is recommended that you give it a 12 month trial. However, if you think nothing's happening after, say; 6 months, no one's stopping you from dropping it. But keep in mind: the only user who stuck with it for over a year in the baldtruthtaIk "community" trial was PrettyFly83... And he didn't see progress (and what a nice ass progress it was... look up "prettyfly83 baldtruthtaIk" to see his results) until after 1.5 years. Recently, we have Me Vs Diffuse Thinning, who went on for 8 months until he saw results, so... Up to you.

    A summary of pics (not updated):
    https://m.imgur.com/a/9moOBwA

    HOW LONG SHOULD I WAIT BEFORE I USE HAIR STYLING PRODUCTS?
    It is safe to use hair styling products 24-48 hours after a session.

    WHAT HAPPENS IF I DON'T RESPOND TO MINOXIDIL?
    The original poster from Tressless, AKA @74775446, didn't respond to Minoxidil prior to starting microneedling and... Well. The rest is a success story. It's not gonna be 100% the same for everyone, but it's worth a shot.

    ARE THERE ANY SUBSTITUTES TO MINOXIDIL?
    I'm afraid that we don't have much of a choice. RU is the closest. Rosemary oil proved to be as effective as 2% Minoxidil, but nobody uses 2% Minoxidil.
    Sandalore is looking good, but it's too early to tell. Guess we'll find out with time!

    IS IT SAFE TO NEEDLE OVER BIRTHMARKS OR SEBORRHEIC DERMATITIS?
    Yes, it is. Several dermarolling and RealSelf threads report that needling has proved to be effective at treating birthmarks and seborrheic dermatitis. However, I urge everyone concerned with this to talk to a dermatologist.

    WOULD NEEDLING RUIN MY SKIN FOR A TRANSPLANT? WHAT IF I HAD A TRANSPLANT, IS IT OKAY TO NEEDLE OVER THOSE AREAS?
    We don't know of anyone who's done this, so I don't wanna venture too far. But technically, the transplant can benefit from needling, as it has proved to make a better environment for the hair.
    There's a user needling after having a transplant (FUT), but he had it +8 years ago. So presumably, needling over those areas is safe but only after healing properly. How long is that, I am not sure.
    I strongly advise anyone concerned with this to talk both to a transplant surgeon and a dermatologist.

    HOW SAFE IS MICRONEEDLING? HOW PAINFUL IS IT? WHAT ARE ITS SIDE EFFECTS?

    Here's the general info: https://dermapen.com/2013/01/25/dermapen-side-effects-microneedling/
    Concerning infection: unless swimming in shit is a hobby of yours, you'll be fine as long as you use basic hygiene. As an OCD person, I'll be sanitizing the hell out of everything.
    Pain varies from person to person. Some people say 2 mm is a no go for them and they stay at 1.5-1.75, unless they use numbing cream. Others find 2 mm almost relaxing. I'm part of the last group.
    As for side effects; the most common ones are headaches and peeling off the skin (flaking) for a couple of days. Swollen lymph nodes are also an honorable mention (it's been observed that going extra hard on the scalp causes it, but there's no reason for this, also by applying Minoxidil right after, but overall it's a rare occurrence).
    Some people will experience shedding. Others will experience the cease of their shedding. Shedding, for the most part, lasts for a month before seeing some improvement. But obviously this may not be the case for everyone.
    You might get a feeling of anxiety in your throat because of all the blood rushing to your head, too. All of these subside after some time.
    Bear in mind: although needling is safe, it increases the absorption of the topicals you're using; thus enhancing their potential side effects.
    Again, if you think I forgot about something, feel free to point it out. I will edit this and add it here. I'll be updating it whenever I think there's something worth adding, too.
    Other things to keep in mind: Recently, another user with great results has popped up. Goes by the name of @chen and he regrew hair on slick bald areas following a daily wounding regimen + conventional treatments.
    However, these type of regimens carry a larger risk of cancer according to these studies:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21321207
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21321199
    I am aware of the whole everything-giving-you-cancer these days, but I thought it was a good idea to let people know. There is a reason why dermarolling companies usually advise to needle once or twice a month.

    Peace and good luck!
     
    #1 Bill_Russo, Jan 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
  2. Mook

    Mook Member My Regimen

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    This is cool, thank you.

    You should post this to Tressless. Every goddamn question on that sub is about microneedling.
     
  3. bigjimmy

    bigjimmy Established Member My Regimen

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    Good post man!
     
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  4. frank1980

    frank1980 Established Member My Regimen

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    Thank you so so much!!
     
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  5. Bill_Russo

    Bill_Russo Experienced Member My Regimen

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  6. cratusg

    cratusg Established Member

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    Love u man, great post as always!
     
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  7. nWo Wolfpac

    nWo Wolfpac Established Member My Regimen

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    After all these years we finally have something other than finasteride and minoxidil that works. I think the derma pen is uneccessary though. Most of the studies have been done with the rollers.
     
  8. bigjimmy

    bigjimmy Established Member My Regimen

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    Possibly, I couldn’t handle the pain of a roller again though and it always felt like I was shredding my scalp.

    The derminator I’m using now feels so much better.
     
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  9. nWo Wolfpac

    nWo Wolfpac Established Member My Regimen

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    Yeah it makes sense to get one for comfort. I kind of like the pain though.
     
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  10. HairSuit

    HairSuit Established Member My Regimen

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    great post. I would add on thing. People need to be aware that microneedling will enhance side effect potential of whatever topical you are using. So, if anyone is using a topical finasteride or RU58841 etc, just be aware that the potential is there with the increased absorption of the product.
     
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  11. BaldAndBalder

    BaldAndBalder Established Member My Regimen

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    Very informative thank you.
    I wish i could use minoxidil, sadly it mostly grow hair on my face and i end up looking like an ape with a unibrow.
    Is there something i could replace minoxidil ?
     
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  12. Bill_Russo

    Bill_Russo Experienced Member My Regimen

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    It's been added. Thanks!
    Anytime, man!
    I'm afraid that there isn't much of an option out there that I'm aware of, aside from some oils or maybe RU58841.
    If you haven't heard about Sandalore, it is looking quite promising. Too early to tell, though.
     
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  13. jared garnith

    jared garnith Established Member My Regimen

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    I wonder if the microtearing from a derma roller could actually be beneficial since it's causing more of a wound so your body might send more beneficial chemicals to the follicle but idk
     
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  14. nWo Wolfpac

    nWo Wolfpac Established Member My Regimen

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    I remember hearing good things about rosemary oil. there was a study that showed it to be more effective than 2% minoxidil. Although pretty much everyone uses 5% minoxidil. You will have to mix it with a carrier oil like castor or jojoba oil. I think peppermint oil might help as well.
     
  15. nWo Wolfpac

    nWo Wolfpac Established Member My Regimen

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    Yeah that makes sense to me.
     
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  16. MKP05

    MKP05 Established Member My Regimen

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    Awesome post. This is like the Bible of microneddling. Thanks so much. Hopefully this will reduce some of the repetitiveness on the big thread.
     
  17. jared garnith

    jared garnith Established Member My Regimen

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    Defiantly, but @Bill_Russo do you know if any of the people who've had success with microneedling were aggressive balders/diffuse thinners like me :(
     
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  18. Bill_Russo

    Bill_Russo Experienced Member My Regimen

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    Hey, man.
    I know that one of the guys who had success without Minoxidil, particularly the one from StopAGA (AKA @Hairyshowers) went from NW2 to NW4 in like a year. Does that sound like you?
     
    #19 Bill_Russo, Jan 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
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  19. Vinc2097

    Vinc2097 Experienced Member My Regimen

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    with what regimen ?
     

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