Its Impossible To Stop Hairloss On The Hairline Without Dutas

[AnxiousAndy]

Well to be honest
I think most users here are bad responders to finasteride, or suffer from sides more than the average.
Because if - as you suggest - it does work, most users should have forgotten about hair loss altogether.
For me, finasteride was never the solution. Every time I used it, for a year at a time, the crown kept on degrading. For me finasteride did not help to keep hair, let alone regrow it.

Well according to Merck's and other scientific studies the success rates were very high for finasteride with regards to just maintenance, but we can see it hasn't worked out that way in practice, just paper. I personally don't believe it works that well on most people either but i'd get flamed to death by diehard finasteride advocates if I said otherwise. Have you thought about trying other treatments Roberto? A member on here, Jgray201 or 203 I think it was managed to regain almost a full head of hair using oral spironolactone and oral minoxidil after continuing to lose hair on finasteride and dutasteride. His story was what inspired me to start the journey I'm on now. Itch is better and shedding was less but recently it has increased again unfortunately, hoping it sorts its self out quick. I wish I could try Setipiprant as androgens just don't seem to be the cause of my male pattern baldness, but its just too damn expensive

Finasteride did the same to me. It took me from dense NW0 to NW2 in a matter of 3 months and made my hair permanently oily. It's kind of irritating when people online question it. As if they know my body better than I do. Did anything help you regrow your hair? Perhaps anti-androgens that work differently from finasteride?

Why did you take finasteride if you were a NW0? Were you a diffuse thinner? So far the only thing that helped regrow my hair was oral minoxidil but it only helped for about 3 months before it just suddenly stopped working. I went from shedding probably less than 40 hairs a day to over 150 almost overnight and lost all my regrowth and thickening plus more.. Shed went on for almost six months but it died down for a while on Androcur ( Yep I'm already on anti androgens ) but now it seems to be coming back as Ive been losing a lot of hair again for little over a week now!
Do you have pics you can share? That is extreme loss in only 3 months but I definitely believe you and it sucks when somehow something that is supposed to help does the exact opposite

 

[pjhair]

Why did you take finasteride if you were a NW0? Were you a diffuse thinner? So far the only thing that helped regrow my hair was oral minoxidil but it only helped for about 3 months before it just suddenly stopped working. I went from shedding probably less than 40 hairs a day to over 150 almost overnight and lost all my regrowth and thickening plus more.. Shed went on for almost six months but it died down for a while on Androcur ( Yep I'm already on anti androgens ) but now it seems to be coming back as Ive been losing a lot of hair again for little over a week now!
Do you have pics you can share? That is extreme loss in only 3 months but I definitely believe you and it sucks when somehow something that is supposed to help does the exact opposite

I foolishly took finasteride as a preventive measure. I had zero hair loss and very dense hair. I saw my friends balding that made me paranoid about my own hair. I read somewhere about a pill called finasteride that you can just take once a day that will prevent any future balding. So like a moron, I started taking it even though I had absolutely no need for it. By far the biggest mistake of life. Within a week of starting finasteride my hair because extremely oily. I started shedding 500 hairs a day where as before I didn't have any shedding it all. This devastation continued for three to four months at which point I quit finasteride. As soon as I stopped taking finasteride, shedding went down significantly. It's been around ten years since I quit finasteride but my hair is still oily. The medicine is a curse for some of us.

You mentioned you take Androcur. Do you take it in tablet form or topical? It's nice to know that anti androgens can still work for people who have lost hair on finasteride. I am thinking about adding RU to my regimen. I want to regrow the hair that I have lost on my temple without hair transplant.

 

[killme]

Good question. Personally, I am chemically castrated ( wasn't my first choice ) and have very little testosterone and DHT in my body. I initially before any treatment had very slow hair loss and was sure finasteride would slow my loss at the very least.. I was very wrong. Somehow when i started finasteride my balding accelerated and thick hairs became thin literally overnight, dissolving my temples and quickly affecting my hairline which wasn't even a problem before!
Honestly, my issue isn't with dutasteride specifically, its with finasteride.. But according to many acedotal report duta hurts the frontal hairline and becuase of my experience I'm a firm believer in this phenomenon as it happened to me on only finasteride... For some people DHT plays little to no role in male pattern baldness. If you asked me this 2 years ago i'd call you a hypochondriac but from my own experience I've lost more hair in less than 2 years of treatment than I have in previous 5 years of slow hair loss with no treatment. I've got no reason to lie and I have before and afters posted on here already as proof.. I still recommended finasteride as a first line treatment because it does work for most people. Unfortunately for me I fell into minority of people that it makes hair worse.. I'm just sick of others denying this possibility when it really does happen.. Officially scientifically documented or not, it happens..
Out of curiosity, are you on finasteride? Has it helped your hair?

Im on a foam which has minoxidil and finasteride, still balding, the foam helps calm my itch tho, I will try dutasteride soon, there's a clinic here in france with a special treatment with dutasteride inyected in the scalp, I hope that helps.

Have you taken bloodworks? what are your hormonal levels?

We have a lot of evidence of dutasteride working, specially the dutasteride twins case is exceptional proof that it works. I dont doubt for some mysterious reason, others dont respond or their hair gets destroyed faster. Did your hairloss happen in classic horseshoe pattern?

This disease is insane.

 

[killme]

Well to be honest
I think most users here are bad responders to finasteride, or suffer from sides more than the average.
Because if - as you suggest - it does work, most users should have forgotten about hair loss altogether.
For me, finasteride was never the solution. Every time I used it, for a year at a time, the crown kept on degrading. For me finasteride did not help to keep hair, let alone regrow it.

So did anything work? in your sig it says u take progesterone? my levels of progesterone came above range in my bloodwork... what is the role of progesterone in hairloss?

 

[killme]

Finasteride did the same to me. It took me from dense NW0 to NW2 in a matter of 3 months and made my hair permanently oily. It's kind of irritating when people online question it. As if they know my body better than I do. Did anything help you regrow your hair? Perhaps anti-androgens that work differently from finasteride?

this is why you must take bloodworks before treatments
why the f*** people take meds that change hormones without doing that?

 

[pjhair]

this is why you must take bloodworks before treatments
why the f*** people take meds that change hormones without doing that?

In my case, it was pure ignorance of how these meds work and the powerful impact they have on body.

 

[pjhair]

Finasteride is highly effective as per the studies but the forum will naturally have bias regarding non responders as Roberto points out. Millions simply move on with life and take the pill, sure they may see some degradation much later but a very slow process. Non responders may be due to having ultra aggressive hair loss but in many cases, simply getting on it too late is the problem.

What's the point taking out DHT when the entire cascade leading to hair loss is already in motion? Fibrosis, calcification, impaired oxygen/nutrient supply to follicles, tight fronto occipital muscles, mediators like various PGs and GFs, pre disposed skull shape e.t.c. There are many factors at play and they can survive independent of no DHT if you're unlucky or it's progressed a lot pathologically - DHT is just the first trigger. If this is happening all over your scalp when you get on it, it will be hard going. Some diffuse guys get great results but they are an exception.

It's the same for many diseases. What may have worked at stage 1-2 of the disease, won't work anywhere near as well later. We just don't know everything. Moving follicles to different parts of the body show different rates of growth at times and changes in cycle - shows the environment is crucial. Hell, a grey hair moved in surgery can become black.

I believe those destined to go aggressively bald, will delay it for maybe decades on finasteride (which is a big deal) but in the end the genetics catch up sadly. I know someone maintaining Norwood 7 thinning with teenage hairline for over a decade on finasteride. But his hair is so bad I think he should just buzz it. It must be hard to take medication for life with poor results but the alternative is poorer without it.

I still maintain not having a full head of hair these days is a choice as idealforehead wrote too. There are many options now. The average sufferer, if he acts early, can halt it one way or another and supplement with transplants. Only 1-2% of baldies are destined for Norwood 6/7 and even lower in youth. It's a long and slow process for most people with a lowish Norwood destination.

Wolf, you have a medical background. Do you have a theory on why some people develop reflex hyperandrogenicity on finasteride? Which, if any, anti androgen is most likely to help such people?

 

[Retinoid]

Well to be honest
I think most users here are bad responders to finasteride, or suffer from sides more than the average.
Because if - as you suggest - it does work, most users should have forgotten about hair loss altogether.
For me, finasteride was never the solution. Every time I used it, for a year at a time, the crown kept on degrading. For me finasteride did not help to keep hair, let alone regrow it.

I do not want to be rude but we also cannot deny that there are quite a few people that have BDD and OCD. They look at hair lines and think as a white male in their 20's or 30's they should have a perfectly straight hair line, which IS NOT COMMON. Finasteride grows hair or maintains over a 2yr period for 88% white males (I bring up ethnicity since Caucasians suffer the most hair loss and are the usual race on this board and Merck separates ethnicities). I also think the brand name drug is going to be best since this is the actual drug that was studied. It is well known that generics are inferior drugs a lot of the time--though plenty still get results.

I think this board is full of frightened people who are over sensitive each time a strand of hair falls out and are stuck in obsession. Literally, you hear all the time how Minoxidil destroyed their hair or Finasteride caused hyperandrogencity and when they show before and after pictures USUALLY nothing changes or it even gets better.

I am not discounting the 12% that do not respond. But I definitely do not think they are all on this board. The most obsessive people here outwardly admit they have mental issues and are in therapy. The problem is they also infect this message board and cause others to fear starting treatments.

 

[Roberto_72]

there are quite a few people that have BDD and OCD

That could be a good explanation.
Or:
I don’t get tail => I must be the 3 mm of hair missing at my temples

 

[Retinoid]

Finasteride is highly effective as per the studies but the forum will naturally have bias regarding non responders as Roberto points out. Millions simply move on with life and take the pill, sure they may see some degradation much later but a very slow process. Non responders may be due to having ultra aggressive hair loss but in many cases, simply getting on it too late is the problem.

What's the point taking out DHT when the entire cascade leading to hair loss is already in motion? Fibrosis, calcification, impaired oxygen/nutrient supply to follicles, tight fronto occipital muscles, mediators like various PGs and GFs, pre disposed skull shape e.t.c. There are many factors at play and they can survive independent of no DHT if you're unlucky or it's progressed a lot pathologically - DHT is just the first trigger. If this is happening all over your scalp when you get on it, it will be hard going. Some diffuse guys get great results but they are an exception.

It's the same for many diseases. What may have worked at stage 1-2 of the disease, won't work anywhere near as well later. We just don't know everything. Moving follicles to different parts of the body show different rates of growth at times and changes in cycle - shows the environment is crucial. Hell, a grey hair moved in surgery can become black.

I believe those destined to go aggressively bald, will delay it for maybe decades on finasteride (which is a big deal) but in the end the genetics catch up sadly. I know someone maintaining Norwood 7 thinning with teenage hairline for over a decade on finasteride. But his hair is so bad I think he should just buzz it. It must be hard to take medication for life with poor results but the alternative is poorer without it.

I still maintain not having a full head of hair these days is a choice as idealforehead wrote too. There are many options now. The average sufferer, if he acts early, can halt it one way or another and supplement with transplants. Only 1-2% of baldies are destined for Norwood 6/7 and even lower in youth. It's a long and slow process for most people with a lowish Norwood destination.

I agree that DHT does not just become a problem. There is some CHANGE in the scalp that causes this whole inflammatory cascade. I wish there was more research into vigorous head massage and derma rolling. I can't do it every day like that guy from the hair health website says, but I believe he is genuine (think his name is Rob). This manual treatment could be pivotal in addition to the chemical treatments.

 

[Retinoid]

That could be a good explanation.
Or:
I don’t get tail => I must be the 3 mm of hair missing at my temples

That is another thing, apparently you are doomed to be alone forever if you have thinning hair on this board. Literally half the people I work with are visibly thinning/receding!

 

[AnxiousAndy]

Im on a foam which has minoxidil and finasteride, still balding, the foam helps calm my itch tho, I will try dutasteride soon, there's a clinic here in france with a special treatment with dutasteride inyected in the scalp, I hope that helps.

Have you taken bloodworks? what are your hormonal levels?

We have a lot of evidence of dutasteride working, specially the dutasteride twins case is exceptional proof that it works. I dont doubt for some mysterious reason, others dont respond or their hair gets destroyed faster. Did your hairloss happen in classic horseshoe pattern?

This disease is insane.

My doctor refused to do bloodwork for me and I haven't asked again, its difficult for me to go outside due to extreme social anxiety. He's not a good doctor in my opinion. I wouldn't say the twins case is exceptional proof, it just proves it worked for one of them, nothing more nothing less. Yes my hair loss is classic male pattern baldness. Receding hairline and as of recently a thinning crown

 

[Retinoid]

It's never been proven but it could exist although it would be rare cases like yourself. Plenty of times in medicine you get upregulation and downregulation of receptors and resistance to treatments - in the sense the disease bites back more aggressively. So it's entirely possible but difficult to prove and most docs would just say male pattern baldness evolved further leading to more loss.

I think if it does exist , maybe the men with low levels of DHT and/or ultra androgen receptor sensitivity get affected. As if the DHT levels are already low or very sensitive follicles, maybe the body compensates by increasing the availability of receptors.

Reflex hyperandrogencity symptom wise does sound a little like Hirsutism - oily scalp, acne, itch e.t.c. There are anti androgens like Flutamide or spironolactone that may help but they have sides. I would go down the route of using keto cream, glucocorticoid cream/injection for the scalp - to reduce inflammation/itch/sebum related to this problem and combat DHT and negative mediators. I would also add in RU and Minoxidil. RU to bind to additional receptors, a safer way for an androgen blockade. Minoxidil as a different mechanism and good for hair. Add in derma roller too.

I think Finasteride causing reflex hyperandrogencity would be very rare since the body does not seem to react to not having 5AR2 by increasing testosterone production. There is also quite a bit of DHT left over. High dosages of Duasteride could since it literally deprives the tissues forcing a crisis reaction.

 

[Exodus2011]

Finasteride is highly effective as per the studies but the forum will naturally have bias regarding non responders as Roberto points out. Millions simply move on with life and take the pill, sure they may see some degradation much later but a very slow process. Non responders may be due to having ultra aggressive hair loss but in many cases, simply getting on it too late is the problem.

What's the point taking out DHT when the entire cascade leading to hair loss is already in motion? Fibrosis, calcification, impaired oxygen/nutrient supply to follicles, tight fronto occipital muscles, mediators like various PGs and GFs, pre disposed skull shape e.t.c. There are many factors at play and they can survive independent of no DHT if you're unlucky or it's progressed a lot pathologically - DHT is just the first trigger. If this is happening all over your scalp when you get on it, it will be hard going. Some diffuse guys get great results but they are an exception.

It's the same for many diseases. What may have worked at stage 1-2 of the disease, won't work anywhere near as well later. We just don't know everything. Moving follicles to different parts of the body show different rates of growth at times and changes in cycle - shows the environment is crucial. Hell, a grey hair moved in surgery can become black.

I believe those destined to go aggressively bald, will delay it for maybe decades on finasteride (which is a big deal) but in the end the genetics catch up sadly. I know someone maintaining Norwood 7 thinning with teenage hairline for over a decade on finasteride. But his hair is so bad I think he should just buzz it. It must be hard to take medication for life with poor results but the alternative is poorer without it.

I still maintain not having a full head of hair these days is a choice as idealforehead wrote too. There are many options now. The average sufferer, if he acts early, can halt it one way or another and supplement with transplants. Only 1-2% of baldies are destined for Norwood 6/7 and even lower in youth. It's a long and slow process for most people with a lowish Norwood destination.

thoughts on taking finasteride at 17? what about 16? i had minor crown thinning at fucken 16, but a few months after i turned 17 is when the whole front area started to go . could i even have gotten on finasteride then?

i was at my full height then im pretty sure, 5'6

 

[Exodus2011]

My doctor refused to do bloodwork for me and I haven't asked again, its difficult for me to go outside due to extreme social anxiety. He's not a good doctor in my opinion. I wouldn't say the twins case is exceptional proof, it just proves it worked for one of them, nothing more nothing less. Yes my hair loss is classic male pattern baldness. Receding hairline and as of recently a thinning crown

howd you get a girlfriend with extreme social anxiety? you dont have social anxiety, at least not extreme if you were able to get a gf

me, at 25 soon and never had a job, girlfriend and too scared to go to school is social anxiety. on top of that parents likely will die soon, maybe 5-10 years (theyre old )and STILL i cant bring myself to work and live as a baldie. THATS social anxiety

 

[pjhair]

Reflex hyperandrogencity symptom wise does sound a little like Hirsutism - oily scalp, acne, itch e.t.c. There are anti androgens like Flutamide or spironolactone that may help but they have sides. I would go down the route of using keto cream, glucocorticoid cream/injection for the scalp - to reduce inflammation/itch/sebum related to this problem and combat DHT and negative mediators. I would also add in RU and Minoxidil. RU to bind to additional receptors, a safer way for an androgen blockade. Minoxidil as a different mechanism and good for hair. Add in derma roller too.

Thank you for your detailed response. Like you said spironolactone and flutamide have very serious side effects. I don't think my hair is bad enough right now to warrant these powerful meds. Besides, a person who also got hyperandrogenicity on finasteride told me that his hair got worse on RU and spironolactone. That doesn't mean those meds will have the same effects of me but it does make wonder if increased androgen sensitivity in people like me can also be triggered by lack of DHT in receptors and not only by the drop of DHT in blood. I think the only thing that can help me is a med that can decrease the sensitivity of receptors. Minoxidil also seems to help people suffering from androgenicity.

 

[Retinoid]

Forgot to add we also have a model in nature studied in detail where they lack the 5AR2 from birth - which is what finasteride was based on. And apart from scrotal and prostate development issues (need DHT growing up) they had no abnormalities. And all had no male pattern baldness. But there's always a risk when the body is altered in some way I guess, chances are very low I agree with you. Also reports that finasteride decreases more isoforms of the enzyme so is not a replica of the natural model.

Many people report an increase in sex drive due to the T rise while maintaining healthy hair/scalp. There's around 30% DHT left over on finasteride and most is not active at the hair follicle either. At the follicle we have 85-90% suppression which is just like the pseduohermaphrodites for pre pubertal levels of DHT. I believe for the majority of us DHT is a a useless hormone into adulthood as per the literature, T is way more important. As you can see in the studies, sides were very low and just slightly higher than placebo. And they are sides which everyone can notice and determine for sure, tits, ED e.t.c.

One of the safest pills out there IMO, you don't even need doctor monitoring that's how safe it is and it's for life. Perfectly fine unless one has predisposing illness like liver, kidney, sperm e.t.c.

Agreed, DHT has its function in the tissue it is being made in itself but does not seem to have a huge overall effect like say Estrogen does. If you took an AI you would see your body try to increase Testosterone to make more estrogen since it is so important, you would also notice no libido, hair thinning, bone issues, blood lipids get affected negatively, etc.

 

[Roberto_72]

Agreed, DHT has its function in the tissue it is being made in itself but does not seem to have a huge overall effect like say Estrogen does. If you took an AI you would see your body try to increase Testosterone to make more estrogen since it is so important, you would also notice no libido, hair thinning, bone issues, blood lipids get affected negatively, etc.

The “natural state” is the guevedoces (sp.?) population of the Dominican Republic.
Some males of those population live as females until puberty.

They lack DHT. And baldness. And a well formed penis.
However, a comparison between the guevedoces and the westerners has these problems:

1. Those boys were *born* without DHT. We are born with it and try to harness it later.
2. They live in a completely different environment than we. They have no same pollution. Different food. Different stimuli.
3. They are OK to not have a Normal penis.

 

[killme]

It's never been proven but it could exist although it would be rare cases like yourself. Plenty of times in medicine you get upregulation and downregulation of receptors and resistance to treatments - in the sense the disease bites back more aggressively. So it's entirely possible but difficult to prove and most docs would just say male pattern baldness evolved further leading to more loss.

I think if it does exist , maybe the men with low levels of DHT and/or ultra androgen receptor sensitivity get affected. As if the DHT levels are already low or very sensitive follicles, maybe the body compensates by increasing the availability of receptors.

Reflex hyperandrogencity symptom wise does sound a little like Hirsutism - oily scalp, acne, itch e.t.c. There are anti androgens like Flutamide or spironolactone that may help but they have sides. I would go down the route of using keto cream, glucocorticoid cream/injection for the scalp - to reduce inflammation/itch/sebum related to this problem and combat DHT and negative mediators. I would also add in RU and Minoxidil. RU to bind to additional receptors, a safer way for an androgen blockade. Minoxidil as a different mechanism and good for hair. Add in derma roller too.

Im not sure what is a correct dermarolling routine because the thread got locked. Some people say anything less than 1.5mm is comepletely useless because it doesnt reach the follicle and others say its overkill and it should be 0.5mm, also im not sure if one should do it daily or once a week or whatever. @Somebody does it dailywhich I think it's insane but he says he is just barely pressing so I guess it can heal in a single day? still seems overkill to me, also the supposed benefits of dermarolling beside increased absorption supposedly happen with 1.5mm wounding which is bloody as f***, too much risk to get an infection specially in humid closed places like a damn bathroom. This is why I have never rolled.

 

[killme]

I think Finasteride causing reflex hyperandrogencity would be very rare since the body does not seem to react to not having 5AR2 by increasing testosterone production. There is also quite a bit of DHT left over. High dosages of Duasteride could since it literally deprives the tissues forcing a crisis reaction.

What if we could use dutasteride on the scalp only? then the system wouldn't go into so called crisis mode due only scalp tissue being affected.