It Begins. I purchased all the items for the SwissTemple Prostaglandin Protocol. Wish

[HairCook]

Reposting in this thread since it gets a lot more views...

From what we have broscience'd so far:
Light wounding = some growth factors + increased absorption + 'immediate' results (low range wounding doesnt deactivate hair cycling)
Deep wounding = a lot of growth factors + increased absorption + breakup of fibrosis+chance of neogenesis + longterm results

The question seems to be how important the breakup of fibrosis is, assuming we're even achieving it

There is no problem to do both. Just do deep wounding once in four to six weeks, and after recover you can still do your low-rolling.
Westonci is also doing this cause he doesnt bother to find a real vehicle for his pge2, thats pretty much the once reason here.

More to low rolling: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5064188/

Does lymphedema compare to what happens in our scalp? I don't remember ever seeing any swelling.

And if there is fibrotic tissue, is that something we need to deal with? If so, how? And how do we tell that it's there?

You can also deal with 100% dmso peeling with it. I remember reading something but it doesnt really matter to me if it is there or not.
3mm wounding gotta deal with it. I also used a lot of DMSO in the past months, no peelings though. You can also check pubmed/google for picture of frontal scalp fibrosis alopecia, the hardcore version of fibrosis.

Dealing with 'physical obstacles' should be done imo. Deep wounding is beneficial for sure. Also it keeps you away from those ppl who are right now repeating history (pulling out all the fibrosis and calcification stuff).

 

[proscar2]

@ hair-cook -
Also it keeps you away from those ppl who are right now (that'd be me say my name ) repeating history (pulling out all the fibrosis and calcification stuff). mention about pulling out fibrosis and calcification in one breath and in the next talk about using dmso to break it up.....

love you hair-cook, but this tit for tat needs to stop. If you have issues with my post! some evidence and back it up rather than refuting my input without evidence or referring to me passively aggressively- thanks pal I would really appreciate it



regarding dermaroller- in my opinion is best used for wounding/growth factors and less so for fibrosis due to simple practicality, it needs another solution if you excuse the pun.

Regarding fibrosis with 100 percent Dmso. you probably can use this but....... (in my humble ever so lowly opinion)

People are better off using acetic acid which is the component of acv. Unfortunately, average ACV is not strong enough @5%....
10-15 acv is is far more useful and of a peel strength and is safe to use with normal safely procedures) rather than using dmso 100% which is well known for transferring substances into the skin at low doses.

100 percent dmso coupled with the smell should be an absolute last resort would substances past the skin into the blood stream!!! be warned
* The smell is bad at low doses and can accumulate- . There are supposed brands that argue there is no smell and it's merely-due to impurities but many BB boards argue this isn't the case- jury is out.

Also acetic acid is actually used to break-up calcium deposits in medical practice and is known to work and would be cheaper far and safer providing one uses common sense.

Final note- Its important to understand the "lymph and fibrosis and stuff" because if you do attempt to break up/ dissolve dispel fibrosis, debris exits through to lymph system. Why on earth anyone would on the one hand rubbish my info regarding fibrosis and then on the other suggest using a substance to get rid of it, without understanding where this debris would be deposited is beyond me. It doesn't just magically disappear- it has to get excreted from the body- and the lymph system is needed to do that. So probably useful info no?

 

[nick533142]

any fibrosis that is broken up under the scalp would be taken away by lymph! hence the importance of understanding fibrosis and the lymph system. here il re-post this furry-dome - if you check immortal hair forum- you see that people have researched this process thoroughly have all indicated soft swelling know as pitted edema that when pressed leaves an indentation on the scalp, as well as the latter stage hardened fibrotic tissue, they were using manual methods to remove it for months. they have detailed daily research on their experiences, so the following is no bullshit.




Understanding Fibrosis

HOW FIBROTIC TISSUES FORM


Fibrosis due to radiation.
© Lymph Notes

in the early stages of lymphedema, the tissues swell with protein-rich lymph that cannot drain properly. These tissues are soft to the touch and it causes condition is known as "pitting edema." Pressure on these tissues leave an indentation where the fluid was pushed aside. It takes time for this indentation to fill in again with fluid. If this condition is not treated at this stage, the stagnant lymph becomes fibrotic (hardened) within the affected tissues as the disease progresses to Stages 2 and 3.

• As fibrosis develops, normal tissues are replaced by scar-like structures that create obstructions that make lymph drainage more difficult.
• The amount of swelling is not an indicator as to the risk for developing fibrosis. Fibrosis can occur in tissues that are only slightly swollen.
• Because this lymph cannot drain properly, the protein molecules accumulate in the tissues and cause more fibrosis (hardening) and a greater danger of infection.
• Fibrosis can be felt as the tissues are no longer flexible or soft. (-CRACKLING SOUND WHEN YOU DERMAROLLER)
• As these changes increase, so too do the risks of more swelling, tissue infections, and skin problems.

POTENTIAL COMPLICATIONS OF FIBROSIS

• As the tissue hardens different massage techniques, which use more pressure, are usually recommended by the patient's lymphedema therapist.
• The changes in this tissue should not be ignored. Instead the patient should consult a physician or lymphedema therapist to starte appropriate treatment.

@ Lymph Notes 2014. Permission to reprint this article for educational purposes has been provided by the LymphNotes website www.lymphnotes.com

This is exactlly what happening to me, im 21 years old but developed very aggressive hairloss. Which is actually due to the fibrosis development. My head is at least 2cm larger around due to the inflammation. but now everything had gone away. my head was a size smaller now and theres more fibrosis going away daily. im at 1.8g of seti daily

 

[furrydome]

Just do deep wounding once in four to six weeks, and after recover you can still do your low-rolling

What depths do you mean by 'deep' and 'low'?

@HairCook If we start a thread specifically about wounding depth and frequency, would you be willing to help fill it with as much knowledge as you can? @proscar2 you too?

EDIT: Well now I feel stupid. Someone started exactly that thread earlier today: https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/ideal-depth-and-frequency-of-wounding.112350/

 

[HairCook]

What depths do you mean by 'deep' and 'low'?

@HairCook If we start a thread specifically about wounding depth and frequency, would you be willing to help fill it with as much knowledge as you can? @proscar2 you too?

EDIT: Well now I feel stupid. Someone started exactly that thread earlier today: https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/ideal-depth-and-frequency-of-wounding.112350/

Anagen hf sits in the subcutis. The subcutis starts usually at 3mm. I do 3mm wounding. Again, you can also access DMSO peeling if you are about the fibrosis/calcification thing. Anti-Androgen and/or Crth2 therapy should block out reoccurrence.

Deep wounding starts for me where the hair cycling stops. That should be starting at 1.5mm. I think in the study I linked it was 1mm but if I remember correctly mice skin is really thin, so it translates probably a bit differently in humans. And remember, they also have more FGF-9.

I dont think I can say anything about optimal frequency. I personally did weekly session and then gonna introduce longer pauses soon.

This entire discussion started anyways just because westonci wont listen to private forum admin, and wont get a proper vehicle for his PGE2

 

[furrydome]

you can also access DMSO peeling if you are about the fibrosis/calcification thing

Not sure how to tell if we should be about the fibrosis/calcification thing. Does that happen to everyone eventually, or is it only if you had the swelling/itching/something else?

I dont think I can say anything about optimal frequency. I personally did weekly session and then gonna introduce longer pauses soon

Yeah, I'm doing 1.5mm 1x/week and getting results but it's SO slow.

What we need is a solid "everything we know about wounding" post, with whatever anecdotes people can offer.

 

[ZenHead]

Not sure how to tell if we should be about the fibrosis/calcification thing. Does that happen to everyone eventually, or is it only if you had the swelling/itching/something else?



Yeah, I'm doing 1.5mm 1x/week and getting results but it's SO slow.

What we need is a solid "everything we know about wounding" post, with whatever anecdotes people can offer.

I absolutely believe the calcifiscation / fibrosis issue is common among every male pattern baldness sufferer. This is the reason why it is hard to reverse male pattern baldness after a certain amount of time (5 / 10 years)

 

[proscar2]

obviously wounding is not the same as getting rid of fibrosis etc. even though you think you may be 'killing two birds with one stone' wounding = increase in growth factors/ signalling aka wnt........ dermarolling to get rid of fibrosis etc cannot be truly effectivesimply in terms of practicality... area depth of needles....

@zen-head.....id bet my life on it.....

 

[the smoking baby]

obviously wounding is not the same as getting rid of fibrosis etc. even though you think you may be 'killing two birds with one stone' wounding = increase in growth factors/ signalling aka wnt........ dermarolling to get rid of fibrosis etc cannot be truly effectivesimply in terms of practicality... area depth of needles....

@zen-head.....id bet my life on it.....

That's likely why Follica's treatment will start with a visit to a participating dermatologist. A deeper wounding treatment that goes beyond an at-home wounding routine with healing by secondary intention and injection of growth factors to break up the fibrosis and kick start the wnt signalling. For those with long-term hairloss, I would imagine that a few visits to the dermatologist would be required alongside the at-home treatment.

 

[proscar2]

I doubt a dermatologist knows anything about fibrosis/ calcification. it involves lymph. not really their area- theyre lacking info in their own area field from what i gather.... double glazing salesmen


your point is well taken though!

 

[timberman]

For anyone interested ordering at Lyphar, I just got the analysis report from Janoshik. My setipiprant batch (which I got late january) came back as 98%+ purity. See the testing report attached.

 

[talesofdahustle]

The amount of hairs growth ive seen since properly using PGE2 has me encouraged.

I say properly because like an idiot ive wasted 2 years using PGE2 with no effect, because I only recently found out through trial and error that you have to microneedle lightly before applying it.

Still waiting for my hair to get a bit longer before I can make comparison pics (usually take update pics at 9mm length)

But heres a small preview of my left temple

https://i.imgur.com/GZeInxK.jpg

Could you post the supplier/link for the pge2 you are having great results with. Possibly get this into the GB @proscar2 or I will purchase myself as it seems vital.

 

[Sanchez1234]

For anyone interested ordering at Lyphar, I just got the analysis report from Janoshik. My setipiprant batch (which I got late january) came back as 98%+ purity. See the testing report attached.

What are the prices at Lyphar?

 

[Bitless]

I absolutely believe the calcifiscation / fibrosis issue is common among every male pattern baldness sufferer. This is the reason why it is hard to reverse male pattern baldness after a certain amount of time (5 / 10 years)

I do think that too.

 

[barfacan]

f*** janoshik, he already has a relationship with those guys. use snlabs

 

[timberman]

What are the prices at Lyphar?

I paid 650USD inc. shipping for 100gr.

 

[proscar2]

I'm going to push for a neutral tester at the seti-GB definately

 

[jjoshh8]

Can you take some pictures at the same angles and lighting and put them side by side to compare?

 

[icecold7]

f*** janoshik, he already has a relationship with those guys. use snlabs

I don't think janoshik is biased in favor of Lyphar. If he is, then why would have have given me test results at only 96% accuracy? It caused an uproar on this forum. If anything, that seems biased against Lyphar.

 

[icecold7]

Everyone, I've been off this forum for a couple weeks, but I want to give an update: Unfortunately, I've given up hope on seti.

To recount my experience:
I started taking Kane's seti on Nov 10th at 1g/day. I switched to Lyphar's seti at 2g/day starting December 28th or so. So I'm ~10 weeks in on Lyphar and almost 4 months in from when I started Kane's seti.

In addition to this, I started minoxidil in early December, applying only to the crown and top of my head (on my spot that was thinnest ie a traditional bald spot). I've reported increased shedding but no additional sides in previous posts on this thread. Others attributed that to the minoxidil, which makes sense. This shedding has continued to this day.

Here's my problem:
At this point, the crown of my head has thicker hair (in fact, what was a small bald spot is now gone), but the front, sides, and nape of my head are all substantially thinner.

In other words, it's apparent to me at this point that the minoxidil is working, at least to some extent, but the seti is not.

I fear that the shedding I've experienced is not from the drugs at all but simply an increased rate of natural hair loss, which is offset on my crown by the minoxidil. And I fear that the seti is simply not effective, causing thinning everywhere else. I fear that the positive results that wes got stem from the PGE2 treatment that he underwent, rather than from the seti. This lines up neatly with his most recent posts on this thread. It's also something I was asking back on Jan 2nd on this thread:

I'm obviously very bullish on seti, and I'm betting my hair on it, but I think this is a good point. @westonci, I applaud you for being the canary in a coal mine here, and your experience has provided great data points on sides, etc. However, Seti isn't supposed to cause regrowth, just maintenance. But it seems like most of the enthusiasm around your photos/progress is from the regrowth. You mentioned your hair is thickening and are attributing it to the seti. Could that be caused by the other parts of your regimen like the PGE2 and Dermastamping?

So I "threw in the towel" on trying to do this without an anti-androgen, and I started fina this past weekend. I was on it just fine for years w/o sides, stopped for a bit, and then started it again. I got sides when I started it again, but there was also a lot going on in my life then and so I'm not positive it was the drug. I'm going to give it another shot because I have to act quick to save my hair.

For those out there who don't want to do fina (which I presume is almost everyone on this forum), it sounds like adding PDE2 to your routine could be the way to go. If I get bad sides on fina, I may stop and try that.

***Note that despite my findings, I'm going to continue the 2g/day seti routine until Allergan announces results of the clinical trials this summer. That will be a 6-8 month trial, and I feel like testing any hair loss drug does take time. If their tests show super positive results, but also indicate strong shedding in the first 3 months, then well, that could mean seti is effective after all, and I'll stay on it. But if their test results are lackluster, I'll quit.

As an aside, Pigeon reported something similar about thinning on the front and sides in post #298 in this thread: https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...really-high-doses.105459/page-15#post-1583139
I think it's a weird coincidence.

Although I hate to be a bummer, I think too often people don't post lackluster or negative results. I think its important we all share results, whatever they are, so we can triangulate to the most effective treatment. Regardless of your regimen, good luck everyone!