It Begins. I purchased all the items for the SwissTemple Prostaglandin Protocol. Wish
- Thread starter westonci
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Vellus hair in 4 weeks and then nothing in 1 year... I'm pretty confident you will be able to conclude alone whether those vellus were there at baseline or not...
Always the same arguments with the same results. Please feel free to waste your time with ST protocol. "Many hair cycles", do you know how long is a hair cycle?
4 weeks to get vellus, many hair cycles to get them terminal. This is a revolution.
Step back and think for a second, if it has taken him one year to get this far how long to you think it will take him to get to NW1? The answer is never as he will be dead before he even gets close. Hence the word suddenly.
I will "understand" when I see a scientifically backed theory rather than some hypothesis peddled by the guys selling this stuff.
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We don't expect a functional regimen to take longer than a year to be effective.
Further, if it takes five years for example, it's not a great regimen as that's five years of your life.
That said, maintenance isn't bad.
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That's interesting because the pictures I just posted of the transgender hair regrowth was extremely rapid. The bottom one was in a time span of 10 months.
Secondly have you even observed enough results? For instance... People always get great results in the first year if they adopt a regimen of finasteride/minoxidil. If they don't have those awesome regrowth result in the first year they'll highly likely almost certainly won't have that awesome regrowth later on.
Observations contradict your statement.
Also read the following study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11511857
Evidence is presented to support a new concept that miniaturization is an abrupt, large-step process that also can be reversed in 1 hair cycle, as has been shown clinically, with confirmatory histologic evidence, in patients with pattern hair loss responding to finasteride treatment. It is hypothesized that the miniaturization seen with pattern hair loss may be the direct result of reduction in the cell number and, hence, size of the dermal papilla.
I'd go further and say 3-6 months. That was certainly the case for me as once it kicked in the month on month changes where so great that I was confident I was going to gain nearly two norwoods in one year. Unfortunately that wasn't the case but the point being that any proper cure should show new terminal hairs growing pretty quickly in the same way that hair transplants regrow terminal hairs once they go into telogen after being transplanted.
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Add miconazole to regime
Vellus hair in 4 weeks and then nothing in 1 year... I'm pretty confident you will be able to conclude alone whether those vellus were there at baseline or not...
Always the same arguments with the same results. Please feel free to waste your time with ST protocol. "Many hair cycles", do you know how long is a hair cycle?
4 weeks to get vellus, many hair cycles to get them terminal. This is a revolution.
Apply castor and dmso on a slick bald area for 4 weeks and then tell me you don't see new vellus hairs appear. Plenty of substances and/or regimens besides the ST protocol will also achieve that. But I'm not applauding the appearance of vellus, I'm correcting your accusation/assumption that those vellus were all here.
And I wasn't implying 2 - 7 years per hair cycle like it is for a healthy terminal hair, if that's what you're assuming. You really expect regrowth to happen in just a few months when it took years to lose?
I don't know if/when he'll get to NW1. He's not on an AA and he's using a very weak CRTH2 antagonist at lesser amounts than the current trial. May not be enough oomph to counteract the high PGD2 levels in his bald scalp. He may have better luck w/ Fevi, but we'll have to wait and see if that's enough too.
The Garza/Cotsarelis, et al study is exactly that, a scientifically backed theory. And no one's selling sh*t. If you come to the conclusion too that PGD2 restricts growth and you want to try counteracting that and hopefully getting yourself some regrowth, go buy a CRTH2 antagonist wherever the f*** you can find it.
We don't know the mechanism by which HRT causes regrowth. Until that changes, we'll have to try other avenues. And great results from Min/finasteride (for the 1/3 who respond to Min) that top out at a year or two, but require you to continue applying Min daily or lose ALL of your regrowth. Be my guest and slather that on your head forever. Enjoy the bloated face, destroyed collagen, and temporary results. I'll continue my regrowth w/ my current regimen, then once (hopefully) achieved, drop it all besides a daily dutasteride pill (or strong CRTH2 antagonist if/when available/affordable).
That study is from 2001... No thought of PGD2 then, and also no mention of how long ago the subjects' loss was. By contrast, this study
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/exd.12945/full suggests regrowth from min/finasteride is from dormant terminal hairs reentering anagen rather than vellus becoming terminal, which would actually explain your study's assertion that it can be reversed in 1 hair cycle. I'm totally fine continuing to watch my own vellus hair gradually go terminal. Would be nice if it was faster, but oh well.
As you admitted above, your regimen failed, yet you tear this one apart for not working in the same time frame. Obviously Westonci isn't expecting successful results in 3 - 6 months like you, @Stupidon and @Swoop. But he's not using finasteride/min either. If you're looking for finasteride/min-like results and consider anything else a failure, why not go elsewhere in the new research section and complain about how those treatments aren't coming out fast enough? He's doing the best he can w/ the treatments he's comfortable w/ and w/ what's available at this time. What's the point in shitposting all over his thread?
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It's not a theory it's a hypothesis: http://i.imgur.com/ujqSDHS.png
See whats written in big letters at the top? "Working hypothesis of PGD2's role in hair loss.
Garza/Cotsarelis wouldn't dare to argue like you that it's a "scientifically backed theory".
In fact Garza clearly describes:
"All the above is good evidence for the importance of PGD2 in the pathogenesis of Androgenetic Alopecia. The next question is the exact degree of importance. Is PGD2 the dominant agent which is downstream of testosterone and inhibits hair growth? Or is it one of many agents and itself only a minor contributor to Androgenetic Alopecia."
At this present moment arguing that PGD2 entails itself as a major contributor in Androgenetic Alopecia is a very weak position to be in honestly. I bet every hair loss researcher agrees with this including Cotsarelis. Nonetheless, you can start calling it a theory when you have very solid data to back it up.
"Hope", yes that works. People always hope. That's in reality whats dictating you thoughts, your feelings, not your rationality. There is nothing wrong with that. The funny thing is that you stretch this hope even further by hoping that you might maintain all the growth by dropping everything and then going on dutasteride. Keep your both feet on the ground mate, just start with your regrowth. I wish you luck.
Doesn't really matter even if the reversal was due to hair follicle cycle alteration of telogen > anagen, crude observations clearly show that reversal of miniaturization can happen extremely fast and almost in every case always does. The lucky transgenders who have massive regrowth in miniaturized areas are testament to this and also the lucky few that use practical regimens like finasteride & minoxidil.
It's not like like they have an improvement of like 20% in the first year then 20% in the subsequent year and then 20%, so forth. Nah the massive improvement almost always happens rapidly in the first year (of course I'm talking about a static regimen in the time frame itself).
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It's true. When I used topical estradiol/prednisolone I started seeing vellus on temples by the 2-3 week mark and by the 2 month mark I had already grown back close to an entire norwood. I had to stop due to the side effects sadly. I didn't even use an anti-androgen at the time, just E2.
If I had used RU concurrently I would've probably been able to use less estrogen and get better results. In fact I might try that.
When you have the right compound the regrowth starts to happen pretty quickly.
Personally I think he has maintained with some slight regrowth at the temples. The problem is the density overall is still quite poor and this makes it very difficult to say that OP had made considerable gains.
I think it is far too early to write off the pgd2 angle as Seti is not the strongest compound. I had very aggressive hair loss at a young age and went on an aggressive regimen to suit, not quite on the level of the HRT regimen (dutasteride/200mg spironolactone/oral minoxidil) but I had results similar to those in the pictures that were posted.
About 2 and a half years ago I switched to a maintenance focussed regimen, continuing to use dutasteride and minoxidil but with RU instead. I started using RU at a 8% solution and maintained but lost some density. Since adding an OC topical I have been able to drop my RU all the way down to a 2% solution, using approx 25mg a day. I have also gained a ton of density (also using various oils too) and I am very happy with the regimen.
My point is that on RU I was just about maintaining. Since adding OC (1%) my hair is in much better shape. I think it's too early to say that pgd2 blockers don't work and maybe using in conjunction with RU is the way forward.
I think it is far too early to write off the pgd2 angle as Seti is not the strongest compound. I had very aggressive hair loss at a young age and went on an aggressive regimen to suit, not quite on the level of the HRT regimen (dutasteride/200mg spironolactone/oral minoxidil) but I had results similar to those in the pictures that were posted.
About 2 and a half years ago I switched to a maintenance focussed regimen, continuing to use dutasteride and minoxidil but with RU instead. I started using RU at a 8% solution and maintained but lost some density. Since adding an OC topical I have been able to drop my RU all the way down to a 2% solution, using approx 25mg a day. I have also gained a ton of density (also using various oils too) and I am very happy with the regimen.
My point is that on RU I was just about maintaining. Since adding OC (1%) my hair is in much better shape. I think it's too early to say that pgd2 blockers don't work and maybe using in conjunction with RU is the way forward.
My regime didn't fail, I just gained one Norwood instead of two and I'm not here crying about it. I'm not shitposting, I'm pointing that there is no regrowth here and going on about gains is either delusional or purposely misleading people. The fact that he's trying to get people to join a group buy based on what is shown here is why I keep commenting and whilst people are free to spend their money how they like, people should not be mislead into thinking they will make any gains with this.
I said this originally at the beginning that this regime does not work and one year on it has not. Saying that he is not using an AA or he may do better on Fevi is beside the point. Anyone trying this protocol of Wounding+LiCl/Seti/Pge2 and expecting massive regrowth is in for a big disappointment.
Swoop already pointed out that a hypothesis is not a theory.
And yes sh*t is being sold because we're talking about group buys for Fevi, it's the same tactic ST used.
Just because PGD2 may restrict growth it doesn't mean that blocking it will cause regrowth, you do realize that don't you? Please tell me with your infinite wisdom how PGD2 inhibition causes DPC proliferation?
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Such a claim has never been made. But typical of people like you... I guess there is no difference between nothing in a 1 year time frame and a quarter...
Where did you get topical estradiol? I can't find it anywhere online.
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Strange that keto seems to help and its a strong anti estrogen... then estradoil works and it is estrogen
Im confused
Im confused
Thanks m8 but I don't need to be schooled on the difference between a theory and a hypothesis. I was referring to the evidence-backed theory that pgd2 inhibits growth, as it was shown to do in explanted human hair follicles by 62 +/- 5%, among other things, in that study. I've made no claims to its degree of importance in male pattern baldness. Thus why I told mr_robot that "If you come to the conclusion too that PGD2 restricts growth and you want to try counteracting that and hopefully getting yourself some regrowth, go buy a CRTH2 antagonist". I suppose I could have worded it more clearly, but come on, you jumped fwd a few steps. As to the extent of its role in male pattern baldness, isn't Westonci's regimen testing Kythera's hypothesis, at least to some extent, no matter how imperfect his experiment may be? Ideally he'd been on a stronger CRTH2 antagonist than Seti, and not be wounding and we'd then have to wait and see if he maintained and/or slightly improved as most finasteride users do. Meanwhile someone else would be wounding w/o an AA or CRTH2 antagonist to prove/debunk what you've always claimed was the cause for any progress he may or may not have made. But as it stands, just as I don't know how important PGD2 is in male pattern baldness, it's not been proven or disproved one way or another yet. And yet you continue to come in here and say it's not likely a factor. You don't know if it is or not but you're fine w/ discouraging the OP from continuing to try and find out.
Re: my "hope", you know nothing about my thoughts or feelings, though good try at dismissing my points as solely coming from some emotion-filled place devoid of rational thought. I'm NW6 and have been for years. Any emotions re: me balding left the building years ago. I have an interest in the science behind all of this, thus why I study it and experiment on myself when I see something that shows potential, even if not yet proven or not.
I will repeat myself again that inhibitors have not and will not cause hair regrowth. That includes finasteride, dutasteride, PGD2 inhibitors and any other inhibitor. The thinking behind inhibiting something that is elevated will cause regrowth is broken because the elevation is a symptom and not the cause which we do not understand (yet).
You can get a cheap PTGDS inhibitor now, Retinoic Acid aka Tretinoin/Retin-A which has been used before and never caused any significant regrowth.
I will give you another example with IL-6. There are studies that show DHT causes IL-6 elevation and that IL-6 inhibits hair growth, there is also a link between PGD2, IL-6 and PGE2. You can inhibit IL-6 very cheaply with menthol in peppermint oil. Does it cause any regrowth? No.
I don't need to try Seti/Fevi because I cant see the mechanism of how they can grow hair, they may be good at maintenance and drug companies certainly have an incentive to trial them even if they result in maintenance as they can be patented unlike Retinoic Acid, Menthol or something similar.
You can get a cheap PTGDS inhibitor now, Retinoic Acid aka Tretinoin/Retin-A which has been used before and never caused any significant regrowth.
I will give you another example with IL-6. There are studies that show DHT causes IL-6 elevation and that IL-6 inhibits hair growth, there is also a link between PGD2, IL-6 and PGE2. You can inhibit IL-6 very cheaply with menthol in peppermint oil. Does it cause any regrowth? No.
I don't need to try Seti/Fevi because I cant see the mechanism of how they can grow hair, they may be good at maintenance and drug companies certainly have an incentive to trial them even if they result in maintenance as they can be patented unlike Retinoic Acid, Menthol or something similar.