How Long Until A "cure" Or Full Reversal Treatment?

[H]

Jakinibs in both topical and systemic ingestion are proven to stimulate DP cell proliferation in vitro, accelerated hair growth in mice engineered to have AA, human skin grafted onto the backs of mice, and the oral drug has grown hair in humans with AA. The mice studies are over, and it is time for Aclaris to test both oral and topical formulations on people with AA and Androgenetic Alopecia. The topical form of the drug for humans will take some expertise to develop in order to penetrate human scalp and reach the depth of hair follicles required and remain there longer than a few minutes at a time. No shortcuts in science.

And UCLA researchers have patented two new drugs, RCGD423 and UK5099. These drugs activate JAK-Stat leading to the increased production of lactate and, in turn, drives hair follicle stem cell activation and hair growth. These drugs have only been tested in lab mice not humans. Again, no shortcuts in science. Same goes for Tsuji who will eventually need to test his method in humans.

If anyone tells you they know what the clinical trial results will be before they even begin, they are lying. What we do know for sure is that once a cellular signalling pathway for hair growth is discovered, the first thing they look for are drugs to affect the same pathways in order to turn hair growth on or off. Why drugs? It's because if we want to cross a river, we might get by with floating a canoe and not an aircraft carrier. Hair multiplication, HSC, PRP, gene therapy etc might be overkill compared to a least invasive and least costly solution, which would be small molecule drugs.

If jaks can penetrate deep enough to regrow hair on AA patients why doesn't it penetrate deep enough and long enough to have an effect on people with male pattern baldness? I assume follicle depth is the same on average. The UCLA study that was done this year? That'll be awhile.

 

[That Guy]

Uhm, maybe because DHT levels are not the same in mice than in an actual 180 pounds male human with a hostile scalp environment for a follicle ?

DHT has f*** all to do with anything in this conversation. If you can grow hair in other animals with cells from human scalp hair...it doesn't actually MATTER where you take the cells from.

It works.

If you're forgetting, they're planning on using the immune hair and this is most certainly the same donor zone they'd have used in the mouse experiments.

All it requires is a cursory understanding of what happened in Jahoda's experiments and experiments like Tsuji's to realize that any current information points to no actual reason why this should not work, aside from the well-documented and allegedly solved cell-amplification problem, so the only thing to do is sit tight and watch.

I think this is why I get so irritated with some users: It goes in circles because they want something to fight about.

You can't just make speculative counterclaims to the present knowledge and logical applications of it without anything tangible to back it up and expect that you won't be faced with resistance.

 

[MrV88]

DHT has f*** all to do with anything in this conversation. If you can grow hair in other animals with cells from human scalp hair...it doesn't actually MATTER where you take the cells from.

It works.

If you're forgetting, they're planning on using the immune hair and this is most certainly the same donor zone they'd have used in the mouse experiments.

All it requires is a cursory understanding of what happened in Jahoda's experiments and experiments like Tsuji's to realize that any current information points to no actual reason why this should not work, aside from the well-documented and allegedly solved cell-amplification problem, so the only thing to do is sit tight and watch.

I think this is why I get so irritated with some users: It goes in circles because they want something to fight about.

You can't just make speculative counterclaims to the present knowledge and logical applications of it without anything tangible to back it up and expect that you won't be faced with resistance.

Surprisingly everybody that doesn't wants Tsuji be true ain't talking about mutiplying human cells in mice. They are nearly claiming that this procedure is a simple repetition of growing mice hair in mice, just like every failed experiment before.

Hair mutiplication will be the only viable solution in the near future, because we are simply to dumb to understand why our hair vanishes and can't regrow it.

 

[Jonnyyy]

Have discovered wtf? Aclaris, cotsarelis etc didn't discover something close to a cure. Everything they maybe could achieve is a density of 25-50 follicles/cm² and that's a pretty big maybe.

Why everybody hypes Tsuji? Because he already achieved more than 125 follicles/cm² which is in comparison better than a normal hair transplant at the moment and his procedure could also be done even if someone is Norwood 6, not even one of your mentioned ones comes even close to being a cure.

A combined effort of Shiseido, Aclaris, Cots etc. couldn't bring us back to a good density and nobody of them even claims so, so why do you?

You realize that a transplant can get you around 50cm^2 at most? Imagine if you're able to get a transplant and combine them, Norwood 7 to full head easily.

 

[MrV88]

You realize that a transplant can get you around 50cm^2 at most? Imagine if you're able to get a transplant and combine them, Norwood 7 to full head easily.

İmagine Tsuji can give you more than a transplant+all the other treatments?

I'm not against Follica, Shiseido etc and I do really hope that these treatments will be available in the near future for an affordable price, but they are really not close to a cure, especially for people with poor donors or high Norwood's.

I have/had quite dense hair and compared to my horse shoe/donor region my thinned/gone hairs are still more dense than any hair transplant could get me, so yes Shiseido and Follica could be enough for me, but I just wish that a treatment could fully heal ALL bald people.

 

[sadila]

I think this is why I get so irritated with some users: It goes in circles because they want something to fight about.

Chill bro no one's fighting, a constructive conversation is all about arugments and counter-arguments.

aside from the well-documented and allegedly solved cell-amplification problem, so the only thing to do is sit tight and watch.

To which study are you referring when you say well-documented & solved cell-amplification problem ? i really would like to see that as i can't find any right now. the only thing we have right now is a mail from tsuji's team claiming so. and even if the problem is solved it's only one step closer amongst 10 remaining, we can't claim with certainty that what's working right now on mice will undoubtedly work on humans for the simple reason that it's the most logical thing, hairloss is not logical neither are our hormones nor our scalp compared to mice skin. as you said we just have to sit tight and watch.

 

[NewUser]

If jaks can penetrate deep enough to regrow hair on AA patients why doesn't it penetrate deep enough and long enough to have an effect on people with male pattern baldness? I assume follicle depth is the same on average

They've tried Xeljanz, an oral drug, on a few patients with AA, but no topical trialled as yet in humans. Expectations are higher for a topical because of Christiano's test results in lab mice. Topical works on mice because their skin is thinner than our's. Human scalp is thicker and with a layer of fat. Christiano said in an interview with tbt that it will take some expertise to develop a topical for use in people. She mentioned in her paper on tofa and ruxo that she and Colin Jahoda developed a method for treating DP spheres with tofacitinib, which worked to enhance DP inductivity whereas ruxo-treated DP spheres did not. The lab results indicated that a topical worked several times better for growing hair in mice than when ingested systemically. Hopefully Aclaris scientists will develop an effective topical carrier for tofa or barcitinib.

The UCLA study that was done this year? That'll be awhile.

Like 95% of the drugs approved by the FDA last year, any new drugs will likely be trialled offshore. Maybe China, Russia or Colombia. Whatever the case, I'm guessing UCLA technology department might sell the rights to the new drugs to a clinical stage pharmaceutical company with deep pockets. Christiano mentioned in the same interview at the end of 2015 that if big pharma were to jump on her research, 3 to 5 years. And Aclaris pounced just a few months later. Hopefully UCLA technology dept. will make an announcement soon.

 

[H]

They've tried Xeljanz, an oral drug, on a few patients with AA, but no topical trialled as yet in humans. Expectations are higher for a topical because of Christiano's test results in lab mice. Topical works on mice because their skin is thinner than our's. Human scalp is thicker and with a layer of fat. Christiano said in an interview with tbt that it will take some expertise to develop a topical for use in people. She mentioned in her paper on tofa and ruxo that she and Colin Jahoda developed a method for treating DP spheres with tofacitinib, which worked to enhance DP inductivity whereas ruxo-treated DP spheres did not. The lab results indicated that a topical worked several times better for growing hair in mice than when ingested systemically. Hopefully Aclaris scientists will develop an effective topical carrier for tofa or barcitinib.



Like 95% of the drugs approved by the FDA last year, any new drugs will likely be trialled offshore. Maybe China, Russia or Colombia. Whatever the case, I'm guessing UCLA technology department might sell the rights to the new drugs to a clinical stage pharmaceutical company with deep pockets. Christiano mentioned in the same interview at the end of 2015 that if big pharma were to jump on her research, 3 to 5 years. And Aclaris pounced just a few months later. Hopefully UCLA technology dept. will make an announcement soon.

This however does not refer to being a good intervention for Androgenic Alopecia this is a good intervention for Alopecia Areata.

 

[NewUser]

This however does not refer to being a good intervention for Androgenic Alopecia this is a good intervention for Alopecia Areata.

Youre exactly right, and we won't know until the science is done. Christiano said jakinibs will have a "short time to failure" meaning they will know soon whether it works for Androgenetic Alopecia or not.

The thread title does mention "a cure" or reversal, and I am betting these discoveries are good bets for the real deal. Yes they will take time, but it is what it is. There are no shortcuts in science, and we will just have to wait for the results.

Beyond this, I can see disruptive technologies in pharmaceuticals eventually identifying a small molecule drug or even a nano-drug that will solve baldness. Human trials for new drugs will eventually be displaced by supercomputers that will simulate drug testing in billions of human scenarios. This will bring down the high cost, and length of time, of clinical trials considerably. "Cures" of all kinds of diseases will come rolling in at a frenzied pace and at faster rate than new developments are being announced now, which seems to be almost monthly. New discoveries are definitely happening at a faster pace today compared to 10 or 15 years ago. Pattern baldness will fall, and so will deafness and blindness involving genetic defects of the retina, one of the most specialised human tissues. Baldness has a short time to live, imo, and the same goes for many more diseases. Imagine achieving life spans of 120, 200 or even 500 years. The future is rushing toward us. This is the good news.It's as if baldness and other disorders have fewer and fewer reasons to exist. It's an exciting time to be alive, for sure. Much better than the alternative.

 

[That Guy]

To which study are you referring when you say well-documented & solved cell-amplification problem ?

What I mean by this is that the problem is widely known, and I said "allegedly" solved as per their email.

we can't claim with certainty that what's working right now on mice will undoubtedly work on humans for the simple reason that it's the most logical thing, hairloss is not logical neither are our hormones nor our scalp compared to mice skin. as you said we just have to sit tight and watch.

and I would agree with this in 9/10 circumstances, but there are few reasons why this is different:

• Like I said, we know that cultured human cells can grow new, healthy hair in human subjects (Jahoda)

• We also know human cells grow hair in mice.

• You're clinging too hard to the hormones thing. It's not like if you take DHT-sensitive hair and transplant it that it immediately dies. The point is that growing new human hair from human cells in both humans and mice works.

Therefore, there is no reason to doubt this will work on the grounds that it worked in mice because it also works on humans and again...human cells. Their current hurdles involve limited technology to manipulate cells in the way they want.

but imagine the following, reverse scenario and you'll see why this is absurd:

Scientists successfully clone dog hair and when they test it in humans, it grows dog hair on the humans successfully. Previous experiments also show that multiplied dog hair cells will grow hair in dogs too, but scientists currently can't amplify the cells enough for dog's losing their fur to amount to a functional cure.

People on forums: YEAH BUT WILL IT WORK ON DOGS!? IT's JUST A HUMAN EXPERIMENT!

 

[sadila]

but imagine the following, reverse scenario and you'll see why this is absurd:

Scientists successfully clone dog hair and when they test it in humans, it grows dog hair on the humans successfully. Previous experiments also show that multiplied dog hair cells will grow hair in dogs too, but scientists currently can't amplify the cells enough for dog's losing their fur to amount to a functional cure.

People on forums: YEAH BUT WILL IT WORK ON DOGS!? IT's JUST A HUMAN EXPERIMENT!

Honestly bro, at this point i don't even care which hair would work on humans, i would still take mice/dog hairs on my scalp any day over no hair at all.

 

[razzmatazz91]

There is very little room for doubting that Riken/Tsuji is a workable cure. I guess that one won't get good info from a hair loss forum at this point. After all this time, empty speculation is pointless.

The question now is, when will this treatment/cure/surgery be available and is it right for us to be hoping to benefit from it?

 

[sadila]

The question now is, when will this treatment/cure/surgery be available and is it right for us to be hoping to benefit from it?

Hope for the best, expect the worse

 

[razzmatazz91]

Hope for the best, expect the worse

That's what we all do.
But I meant to have a serious answer.

Riken may not be able to do HM till 2020. But can it be expected to be here by 2022?
And how expensive is it going to be?

 

[sadila]

That's what we all do.
But I meant to have a serious answer.

Riken may not be able to do HM till 2020. But can it be expected to be here by 2022?
And how expensive is it going to be?

Considering how japan's regulations are in regards of theses studies, i would say we should expect 2-3 years between the beginning of the studies and market release maybe more maybe less depending on how the studies go and if they would need more research for it to be a viable cure based on the study results. hard to say at this point.

The cost will certainly and unfortunetly be high at first and most of us won't be able to afford it, but as it's the case for any products, mechanization / process simplification will reduce the cost. in my opinion the cost will be twice a hair transplant maybe more 20-30k $

 

[razzmatazz91]

Considering how japan's regulations are in regards of theses studies, i would say we should expect 2-3 years between the beginning of the studies and market release maybe more maybe less depending on how the studies go and if they would need more research for it to be a viable cure based on the study results. hard to say at this point.

The cost will certainly and unfortunetly be high at first and most of us won't be able to afford it, but as it's the case for any products, mechanization / process simplification will reduce the cost. in my opinion the cost will be twice a hair transplant maybe more 20-30k $

I've been thinking whether or not it is possible for me to get temporary SMP a couple of times and love my remaining 20s that way while saving for a possible treatment. I'm 26 and norwood 6 with retrograde alopecia.

Will research on this aspect and see how it goes..

 

[sadila]

I've been thinking whether or not it is possible for me to get temporary SMP a couple of times and love my remaining 20s that way while saving for a possible treatment. I'm 26 and norwood 6 with retrograde alopecia.

Will research on this aspect and see how it goes..

If you need a professionnal artist my suggestion : http://www.mens-ink.com/fr/gallery.php

 

[real kombo]

This however does not refer to being a good intervention for Androgenic Alopecia this is a good intervention for Alopecia Areata.

So if I hop on dutasteride and oral spironolactone and it lasts me 2 years, will that be long enough until shishiedo comes out to save my ***? Or are we looking at an effective treatment out in 25 years?

 

[MrV88]

Hope for the best, expect the worse

Best= it works
Worst= expensive as f***

 

[NewUser]

What I mean by this is that the problem is widely known, and I said "allegedly" solved as per their email.

There are emails and there is science/clinical data. Not the same thing.

• Like I said, we know that cultured human cells can grow new, healthy hair in human subjects (Jahoda)!

That's good news for Replicel/Shiseido. They are working with dermal papilla cells.