HMI-115 PRLR antibody: The Most Promising Treatment Ever

[pegasus2]

So using the lesser dose would have 0 impact in slowing the progression of Androgenetic Alopecia? Again, you are all or nothing here.

Not enough to make it worthwhile. Most people won't see a cosmetic improvement in their hair in 3 months. If you want to prevent further damage to preserve your ability to regrow hair then you can do that with minoxidil, and it will be just as effective in preventing further damage. The Androgenetic Alopecia trials aren't that far behind the endo trials. If it somehow gets approved for endo it will only be 6-12 months earlier. If you are so rich that you can spend $50k for 12 weeks of shots that won't grow a noticeable amount of hair then more power to you. I wish I had that kind of money.

 

[Feelsbadman.jpg]

I'm saying that it's in-between. It doesn't make your hair magically immune to Androgenetic Alopecia. The macaque study shows a rather large decline in hair shaft diameter at 6 months without treatment.

But still well above base line correct? Now couple that with a 5AR inhibitor. The decline would be presumably even less.

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

Well, this is no pussy topical. It is very expensive antibody so seems pretty pointless to deviate from the trial optimal dosage for AA in any way or form tbh?

 

[Feelsbadman.jpg]

Not enough to make it worthwhile. Most people won't see a cosmetic improvement in their hair in 3 months. If you want to prevent further damage to preserve your ability to regrow hair then you can do that with minoxidil, and it will be just as effective in preventing further damage. The Androgenetic Alopecia trials aren't that far behind the endo trials. If it somehow gets approved for endo it will only be 6-12 months earlier. If you are so rich that you can spend $50k for 12 weeks of shots that won't grow a noticeable amount of hair then more power to you. I wish I had that kind of money.

Not everyone has the enzymes present to utilize minoxidil. The first treatment I ever tried was minoxidil and it did not provide any maintenance, in fact recession, not just shedding, accelerated. For HMI 115, 12 weeks of shots every two weeks would 6 shots or around $18k.

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

Isn't the HMI trials going to try different dosages to determine most optimal one anyway? is it dose-dependant? im not sure how antibodies work.

 

[pegasus2]

But still well above base line correct? Now couple that with a 5AR inhibitor. The decline would be presumably even less.

You're unlikely to even be above baseline after 12 weeks of shots. You can drop finasteride and still be above baseline after 6 months.

Not everyone has the enzymes present to utilize minoxidil. The first treatment I ever tried was minoxidil and it did not provide any maintenance, in fact recession, not just shedding, accelerated. For HMI 115, 12 weeks of shots every two weeks would 6 shots or around $18k.

Everyone does have the enzymes, just some have more than others. Using it orally overcomes that obstacle, as everyone has a sufficient amount in the liver. If you had shedding/recession on minoxidil then it was working. That is how it works. If you didn't have any sulfotransferase in your scalp then it would not cause shedding.

You're assuming around 3k per 240mg, but if they determine that only 60mg is required to treat endo then the cost will be at least 12k for each 240mg injection, or 72k for 12 weeks. Personally I would have to have 100 million in liquid assets before I'd be willing to throw that away rather than waiting 6 months, but I had to work hard for my money.

 

[pegasus2]

Isn't the HMI trials going to try different dosages to determine most optimal one anyway? is it dose-dependant? im not sure how antibodies work.

In the phase two they are only trying a single dose, 240mg. I would imagine that phase 3 will try additional doses - perhaps 120 and 480. It's impossible to say at what dose results will be seen, but 50% PRLR knockout doesn't have a significant effect on hair growth, so the dose would have to be high enough to block more than half of PRLR signaling

 

[Feelsbadman.jpg]

You're unlikely to even be above baseline after 12 weeks of shots. You can drop finasteride and still be above baseline after 6 months.

This is from your first post. Saying you won't even be above baseline at 12 weeks doesn't even make sense. You can argue about the dose but that would just make the results less pronounced, not nonexistent.

Everyone does have the enzymes, just some have more than others. Using it orally overcomes that obstacle, as everyone has a sufficient amount in the liver. If you had shedding/recession on minoxidil then it was working. That is how it works. If you didn't have any sulfotransferase in your scalp then it would not cause shedding.

You're assuming around 3k per 240mg, but if they determine that only 60mg is required to treat endo then the cost will be at least 12k for each 240mg injection, or 72k for 12 weeks. Personally I would have to have 100 million in liquid assets before I'd be willing to throw that away rather than waiting 6 months, but I had to work hard for my money.

No this is just flat out not correct. The recession never grew back despite using minoxidil for over 18 months. Prior to minoxidil, the recession was slow and gradual. Minoxidil is actually capable of increase 5AR in dermal papilla cells. The study says the increase was insignificant but I believe this probably varies highly from individual to individual.

Minoxidil increases 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase and 5 alpha-reductase activity of cultured human dermal papilla cells from balding scalp - PubMed

Minoxidil is known to induce hair growth in male pattern baldness, for which development androgen plays a central role. We studied the effect of minoxidil on testosterone metabolism by cultured dermal papilla cells from balding or nonbalding scalp and dermal fibroblasts. In all three groups...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Dr sanches]

View attachment 181033

This is from your first post. Saying you won't even be above baseline at 12 weeks doesn't even make sense. You can argue about the dose but that would just make the results less pronounced, not nonexistent.


No this is just flat out not correct. The recession never grew back despite using minoxidil for over 18 months. Prior to minoxidil, the recession was slow and gradual. Minoxidil is actually capable of increase 5AR in dermal papilla cells. The study says the increase was insignificant but I believe this probably varies highly from individual to individual.

Minoxidil increases 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase and 5 alpha-reductase activity of cultured human dermal papilla cells from balding scalp - PubMed

Minoxidil is known to induce hair growth in male pattern baldness, for which development androgen plays a central role. We studied the effect of minoxidil on testosterone metabolism by cultured dermal papilla cells from balding or nonbalding scalp and dermal fibroblasts. In all three groups...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pegasus exposed

 

[pegasus2]

View attachment 181033

This is from your first post. Saying you won't even be above baseline at 12 weeks doesn't even make sense. You can argue about the dose but that would just make the results less pronounced, not nonexistent.

1. You're not a macaque, your hair cycle is longer. 2. That is the top responder. You will not be a top responder.

No this is just flat out not correct. The recession never grew back despite using minoxidil for over 18 months. Prior to minoxidil, the recession was slow and gradual. Minoxidil is actually capable of increase 5AR in dermal papilla cells. The study says the increase was insignificant but I believe this probably varies highly from individual to individual.

Minoxidil increases 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase and 5 alpha-reductase activity of cultured human dermal papilla cells from balding scalp - PubMed

Minoxidil is known to induce hair growth in male pattern baldness, for which development androgen plays a central role. We studied the effect of minoxidil on testosterone metabolism by cultured dermal papilla cells from balding or nonbalding scalp and dermal fibroblasts. In all three groups...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

You believe this because of an n=1 experience? It seems more likely that your hair loss started accelerating naturally. People usually do decide they need to get on treatment around the time their hair loss begins accelerating. Then when it accelerates faster they blame the treatment.

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

Shedding after minoxidil is literally forced new anagen phase of next follicle, which is exactly what minoxidil does. Minoxidil can't really cause permanent hair loss. Makes 0 sense that upregulating wnt would do that.

But it forces acceleration of hair cycles, and if you have untreated Androgenetic Alopecia it doesn't help to accelerate the clock.

 

[Feelsbadman.jpg]

1. You're not a macaque, your hair cycle is longer. 2. That is the top responder. You will not be a top responder.

Again, this makes no sense. 3 months is long enough to see some results with 5AR inhibitors and minoxidil but not with HMI 115? Miniaturized hairs will have shorter hair cycles.

You believe this because of an n=1 experience? It seems more likely that your hair loss started accelerating naturally. People usually do decide they need to get on treatment around the time their hair loss begins accelerating. Then when it accelerates faster they blame the treatment.

I believe this based off of my experience and the study I linked that states minoxidil can increase 5AR in the dermal papilla cell.

 

[Feelsbadman.jpg]

Shedding after minoxidil is literally forced new anagen phase of next follicle, which is exactly what minoxidil does. Minoxidil can't really cause permanent hair loss. Makes 0 sense that upregulating wnt would do that.

But it forces acceleration of hair cycles, and if you have untreated Androgenetic Alopecia it doesn't help to accelerate the clock.

I didn't have shedding as we describe it. Just disappearance of a chunk of my hair line corners where the minoxidil foam was being rubbed in. It does make sense if minoxidil is capable of increasing 5AR. The hair did somewhat grow back, over 10 years later after being on dutasteride and topical spironolactone for several years so I guess you can say it wasn't permanent but that's the same as saying Androgenetic Alopecia isn't permanent.

 

[LouisSarkozy]

Not enough to make it worthwhile. Most people won't see a cosmetic improvement in their hair in 3 months. If you want to prevent further damage to preserve your ability to regrow hair then you can do that with minoxidil, and it will be just as effective in preventing further damage. The Androgenetic Alopecia trials aren't that far behind the endo trials. If it somehow gets approved for endo it will only be 6-12 months earlier. If you are so rich that you can spend $50k for 12 weeks of shots that won't grow a noticeable amount of hair then more power to you. I wish I had that kind of money.

sorry to bother you but would you say it's wise to get back on minoxidil right now just to prevent fibrosis of already " bald area" with the ability to regrowt vellus hair on min in the meantime whil waiting for the first hmi results? btw sorry to ask but when can we expect to see the fist results in human i'm lost and tired and my balls f*****g hurts lately cause of dutasteride........ thanks you very much

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

sorry to bother you but would you say it's wise to get back on minoxidil right now just to prevent fibrosis of already " bald area" with the ability to regrowt vellus hair on min in the meantime whil waiting for the first hmi results? btw sorry to ask but when can we expect to see the fist results in human i'm lost and tired and my balls f*****g hurts lately cause of dutasteride........ thanks you very much

fibrosis is literally the endgame for your follicle, so you better make sure to never reach that point. Microneedling is a good preventive mechanism aswell

 

[LouisSarkozy]

fibrosis is literally the endgame for your follicle, so you better make sure to never reach that point. Microneedling is a good preventive mechanism aswell

i don't know if i'e reached fibrosis that's the thing as i'm slick bald on temples and hairline ( nw3.5 ) but each time i'm using minoxidil i'm growing ellus everywhere down to nw0 and jueline hairline but those hair just ner grow into terminals , i'm curious if i could be saved by hmi an if i'ts still worth fighting

 

[indie85]

Interesting, is it the prolactin receptor inhibition that is causing this result? In which case, if it works as well to justify the price, a plethora of prolactin receptor antagonists will come out... OR is it the act of modulating the immune system itself to target these receptors and the alteration of pathways within the immune system that does the trick (in which case prolactin antagonists won't do anything, but drugs that affect the immune system might - think cyclosporine)

 

[pegasus2]

sorry to bother you but would you say it's wise to get back on minoxidil right now just to prevent fibrosis of already " bald area" with the ability to regrowt vellus hair on min in the meantime whil waiting for the first hmi results? btw sorry to ask but when can we expect to see the fist results in human i'm lost and tired and my balls f*****g hurts lately cause of dutasteride........ thanks you very much

Yes. Minoxidil will help your follicles stay "alive" until then. Without any treatment they will become more difficult to revive over the next couple years. We could have results by the end of the year, but quarter 1 next year is more likely.

 

[pegasus2]

Interesting, is it the prolactin receptor inhibition that is causing this result? In which case, if it works as well to justify the price, a plethora of prolactin receptor antagonists will come out... OR is it the act of modulating the immune system itself to target these receptors and the alteration of pathways within the immune system that does the trick (in which case prolactin antagonists won't do anything, but drugs that affect the immune system might - think cyclosporine)

It's hard to say for sure what the downstream mechanisms are, but the drug is highly specific for the prolactin receptor, which is downstream of cyclosporine. Prolactin inhibitors won't work for other reasons. This is mentioned on the first page of this thread

 

[LouisSarkozy]

Yes. Minoxidil will help your follicles stay "alive" until then. Without any treatment they will become more difficult to revive over the next couple years. We could have results by the end of the year, but quarter 1 next year is more likely.

sorry i'm low iq af but does that mean than by june of 2023 ( more or less 1 year from now on) we are likely to know how it's going to translate to human?

i think i can still handle 1 more year just to know