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Has Anyone Questioned Androgenetic Factors

Discussion in 'Men's General Hair Loss Discussions' started by bobmer, Feb 23, 2007.

  1. bobmer

    bobmer Established Member

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    :) Maybe. We each have our own decisions and opinions. I would refrain from making comments on what other guys are pushing unless I have something I can use to help prove their claims.

    There is one finding, not robust, not controlled and not credible. Surgical hair transplant wherein the scalp from the back is transfered to the top.
    How is it that supposed androgen independent follicles from this area will cease after several years - the reason why dermatologists prescribe pros and minoxidil after the transplant.?
     
  2. abcdefg

    abcdefg Senior Member

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    bryan finasteride wasnt an accidental discovery for hairloss? I thought finasteride was originally for bph then it was accidentally found that it grows some hair then they turned it into propecia?
     
  3. bobmer

    bobmer Established Member

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    Minoxidil is for high blood pressure and 'accidentally' discovered that it grew hair on a woman. That accidental discovery was so well publisized world wide, it puts question mark on whether it was truly an accident. minoxidil is a blood vessel dilator or is suppose to prevent constriction. Stress hormones are known to constrict blood vessels and androgens puts blood vessels in contrict mode. But the maker says they 'don't know' why it causes hair to grow. Further studies have not found out why it grows hair. That's the story if i'm not mistaken. It seems to me it was meant to throw off those who would want to try other dilators.
     
  4. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    Who sez they "cease" after several years? :)

    Uhh...I think they prescribe finasteride and minoxidil mainly to preserve as much of the remaining hair (the androgen-sensitive hair) as possible. There's only a limited supply of androgen independent follicles available, and if you run out, you're out of luck.

    Bryan
     
  5. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    Nope. Everybody always assumes what you just suggested, but for no good reason whatsoever.

    Merck designed finasteride for the specific purpose of possibly treating a range of androgen-related disorders, including BPH, male pattern baldness, acne, hirsutism, etc.

    Bryan
     
  6. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    You've lost me. Why does that put a "question mark" on whether it was truly an accident??

    It's been pointed out for YEARS on hairloss sites that other blood vessel dilators don't grow hair like minoxidil does. ONLY minoxidil and others in the same chemical family (diazoxide is another example) do that. Therefore, dilating blood vessels per se has nothing to do with stimulating hair growth.

    Bryan
     
  7. bobmer

    bobmer Established Member

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    Ignore what I said :lol: It only means I don't trust data the comes out of pharmceuticals or research funded by them :lol:

    But what's the real score? Upjohn claims 40% 'positive' results. I read some statements from dermathologists claiming less than 5%?
     
  8. Pondle

    Pondle Senior Member

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    But if this is the case, why doesn't it present equally in men and women? Surely we should see less male pattern baldness in colder regions?
     
  9. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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    Bobmer wrote:
    Environment in research means: food, physical, social, work, clothes, air, water, including your chair You ought to know that by now!!


    My question:
    In common baldness,
    hair style, hair lenght, hair cuts are included in environment or not??

    Armando
     
  10. bobmer

    bobmer Established Member

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    hmm... hair style can 'social' (how you think people perceive you); hair length and cut would be physical.

    Here is one difference between men and women - they brush their hair 30 times to 50 times more than men. Because it's long, it has a masssaging effect on the scalp.

    I don't want to put too much attention on this but one thing I know is that the 'horseshoe' (back and sides of the head) have been massaged for eons or at least since the day you were born (by a pillow)

    Again let me repeat that massaging will NOT prevent hairloss although it might in very few people. male pattern baldness is believed by some to be causeed by many factors. Address one factor that's one down but you have 5 more to go. :)
     
  11. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    I don't mean to sound glib or cliché, but I really do think a HUGE factor is the exact way you define "positive results". The poster on hairsite calling himself "Common Sense" (he claims to be a doctor) once said that he had never seen minoxidil grow hair on a person that was obvious and visible from across the room. Well, heavens, that seems like a rather tough standard to meet, although some people do get that kind of growth.

    Dr. Proctor, on the other hand, defines a "response" to medication as being an improvement that you can detect in before-and-after photos, which obviously is a little easier to meet than being visible "across the room".

    Yet another way to define a successful "response" would be a statistically significant increase in haircounts, whether it's visible or not in photographs (or from across the room). That's clearly the most lenient standard to meet.

    So the bottom-line is that the phrase "positive results" has to be very carefully and specifically defined before everybody starts quoting their numbers! :wink:

    Bryan
     
  12. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    That's a fair question, and I think the simplest and most likely explanation is that from an evolutionary standpoint, male pattern baldness is a relatively recent phenomenon. Sometime in our recent history, a chance mutation of some sort occurred which caused the growth of scalp hair to be suppressed by androgens. Since that (presumably) proved to have a mild evolutionary advantage, males with that trait very gradually became more numerous as time went by. The only problem is that the chance mutation just had to do with ANDROGENS, and the males obviously had a lot more androgen than the females. Therefore, the females haven't yet fully "caught up" with the males in that department, although there is presumably an evolutionary pressure in that direction. Furthermore, it's interesting to point out here that in stumptailed macaques, males AND females bald at about the same rate. Evidently, their females HAVE managed to "catch up" with their males! :)

    That's my basic thinking on the subject.

    Bryan
     
  13. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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    Very interesting thought. My theory goes paralell to it, but regarding the importance of sebum flow.
    http://www.againstalopeciaandbaldness.com



    Androgens inside the hair follicle are the important ones in common baldness. Do you agreed?

    Armando
     
  14. bobmer

    bobmer Established Member

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    sebum has extremely little to do with hair loss, i think.

    I think what you meant was the sensitivity of follicles to androgens.

    Here is one thing I know. Cells, of which we are made of - about 50 billion of them - are alive can many can survive and multiply outside the human body if put in the right environment. If you you put them in a harsh environment (starve, odd temperatures, harsh chemicals) some may die but some may react in an attempt to adjust or adapt to those environments. If you starve them, some will produce (properly or erronousely) more receptors that will make them more sensitive in an attempt to catalyze (or to eat) more nutrients.

    I believe that scalp vertex follicles are being subjected to harshed conditions.
     
  15. Pondle

    Pondle Senior Member

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    Yes but even if you believe that scalp follicles are being subject to "unnaturally harsh" conditions - a controversial contention - the fact is that some people go bald, and others don't, when exposed to those same conditions.
     
  16. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    The important ones are testosterone from outside the hair follicle, and DHT from inside the hair follicle.

    Bryan
     
  17. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    That's not what he meant.
     
  18. bobmer

    bobmer Established Member

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    No, I believe that in susceptible men, follicles are exposed to harsh environments. I believe that even in non-bald men, the same exposure will damage the follicles.

    The difference would be the physiological, neuro and biochemical mechanisms and environments that affect blood circulation in both 'types' of men. This means that in non-bald men, these follicles being treated normally.

    CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHERE THE SUPPOSED 'ANDROGEN DEPENDENT OR SENSITIVE FOLLICLES ARE???
     
  19. So

    So Established Member

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    :whaasup:

    I've been studying all day today, the thought of reading this entire post makes my head want to explode. :freaked2:

    I suppose the fact that I have been studying an exerting mental processes is contributing to my hair falling out by the looks of some of the information found in this post.

    Anyway, do me a favor, tell me how to buy this book. You mentioned it was only $10. Come on, I want to read this text and put your claims to the test.
     
  20. bobmer

    bobmer Established Member

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    That's my problem with this nerd friend of mine. He wants a database of 10,000 interested buyers before we start printing. Thus far, we only have 300++ in our database. That's not even enough to pay for the time I spent in the forums. I'm probably not good at selling and need some help. No one on this site seems to be interested but you. I'm about to move on to other sites but I must say kudos to this site for being fair despite the competition they face from posters.
     

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