"genes Involved In Baldness Are Associated, On Average, With Shorter Stature."

[Saulus]

Guys:

Everything matters for male attractivness - face, hair, height, frame (if girls talk about tall guys they always mean the ripped ones and not lanklets)

 

[Timii]

My reading of your post is that you're tall but you don't want to believe that you have a significant advantage. Well bro, you have a significant advantage. It's not a guaranteed good life, but it goes a long way. What I know about you is that you're 6'2, white, you stopped your hairloss at NW2 or better, you're smart, young, and you have a good career. I assume that you do well with women. Perhaps not spectacularly so (I don't know) but I assume that you do well.

Kind of true. I know a guy who is 6' 3 , 8/10 , perfect NW1 hair, dresses with style, is a social butterfly who knows nearly everybody in my age and earns money on a regular basis despite going still to high school. His only drawback is his lack of self-discipline. He is not good at school, he actually got rejected last year. But the funny thing is that, unlike the majority of people, he can afford to be lazy and he would still have tons of doors opened for him. Not that I envy him , because the life he chose is different from the one I desire, but it's really true , some people are just born to receive success on a silver platter.

 

[CaptainForehead]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/.../beautiful-people-really-are-more-intelligent

You can probably find more. That was the first google link for "correlation between beauty and intelligence", and reports rho = +0.381.

For those who don't know statistics at all, rho = +0.381 is actually very impressive for two variables that are measured with noise, and that themselves are multivariable and multi-causal.

I need to learn statistics.

The article mentions IQ of 105, which I don't consider to be smart.
What I want to know is whether beauty is predictive of 125+ iq, in regards to a statement like this made in the article:
"If you want to estimate someone’s intelligence without giving them an IQ test, you would do just as well to base your estimate on their physical attractiveness as you would to base it on their years of education."

 

[That Guy]

The way some people here talk you'd think if you're just tall then hair dosen't matter. Well standing 6'4 myself I can tell you it f*****g does.
Plenty of tall guys where I'm from. Beauty is a far more scare commodity. What will you with your height when all the other tall guys still have their hair?

Look at LeBron James. Guy is the greatest athlete in the world, 6'8 AND black. By conventional wisdom baldness should be nothing to him. And yet he's still super subconscious about his hair and has had a transplant. Even with all he has going for him hair STILL MATTERS. It always does.

Height is a big plus. But it's not much of consolation when facing of hair loss.

I'm 6' 2 and I've never considered it when it comes to women. Now you might say "Well that's because you're 6' 2" but that's not the reason: I was far too concerned with everything else about my appearance and trying not to say anything unintentionally awkward.

The thing about height as an advantage in the sexual market place is that it only gives you an advantage over your peer group and lesser; but not above.

If you're a balding dude with a dad bod, being tall just makes you a bit more desirable than other balding dudes with dad bods.

 

[Timii]

I need to learn statistics.

The article mentions IQ of 105, which I don't consider to be smart.
What I want to know is whether beauty is predictive of 125+ iq, in regards to a statement like this made in the article:
"If you want to estimate someone’s intelligence without giving them an IQ test, you would do just as well to base your estimate on their physical attractiveness as you would to base it on their years of education."

The point is that although 105 is not high, 91 is actually low.

 

[disfiguredyoungman]

Balding was unattractive in all cultures through the centuries

And in egypt it were mostly the priest who shaved, just like in the medival age

In fact , egyptian kings run haircover game and wore wigs

http://m.historyembalmed.org/ancient-egyptians/egyptian-hairstyles.htm

Also shaving =/=balding


Look how desperate our ancestors wear to fight balding .. they literally put sh*t in their hair.

http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/9-bizarre-baldness-cures

Its definitely not a fashion thing

Well how do you explain the hairstyle of the warrior aristocracy in Japan then, these were high value men, probably the highest value men of their era. Also Egyptian priests are not celibate as far as I know.
But anyways, while I think there could be a bit more to it (such as temporary cultural associations with cancer patients, neonazis and concentration camp inmates) I am more than open to the idea, that balding is instinctively perceived as a unattractive trait.

That being said, it is rather implausible to assume that this has anything to do with a 5% increase of a 0.01% chance of prostate cancer at the age of 45 or stuff like that (or more hilarious: height, as if your baldness was a better indicator of height than your...you know actual height). Throughout history at this point you'd have reproduced a long time ago and quite frankly, your fitness at old age has thus no relevance from a evolutionary point of view whatsoever. That is quite appliccable to balding as well, 50 years ago most men would have had their first child after the arround the age of 23-24, way before most of us would go full bald.
So I think it is way more logical to assume that balding is a unattractiveness indicatior much in the sense that wrinking in women is, as a sign of aging (even though modern life has made it a young man's problem anyways), but not as some sort of super unhealthy syndrome like klinefelter's syndrome or sh*t like that.


As to the sh*t thing: Modern men are smearing piss on their scalp nowadays, isn't it great how everything comes full circle

 

[That Guy]

Well how do you explain the hairstyle of the warrior aristocracy in Japan then, these were high value men, probably the highest value men of their era. Also Egyptian priests are not celibate as far as I know.

Easy.

The Egyptians often removed all of their body hair to fight the heat and lice; but you'll notice they wore wigs, so...hair was still considered attractive.

and Samurai shaved the top of their heads to reduce heat from the heavy helmets they wore...but they tied it up in a topknot when not in battle.

So yeah, baldness has always been considered unattractive and used historically for practical reasons.

 

[Saulus]

Well how do you explain the hairstyle of the warrior aristocracy in Japan then, these were high value men, probably the highest value men of their era. Also Egyptian priests are not celibate as far as I know.
But anyways, while I think there could be a bit more to it (such as temporary cultural associations with cancer patients, neonazis and concentration camp inmates) I am more than open to the idea, that balding is instinctively perceived as a unattractive trait.

That being said, it is rather implausible to assume that this has anything to do with a 5% increase of a 0.01% chance of prostate cancer at the age of 45 or stuff like that (or more hilarious: height, as if your baldness was a better indicator of height than your...you know actual height). Throughout history at this point you'd have reproduced a long time ago and quite frankly, your fitness at old age has thus no relevance from a evolutionary point of view whatsoever. That is quite appliccable to balding as well, 50 years ago most men would have had their first child after the arround the age of 23-24, way before most of us would go full bald.
So I think it is way more logical to assume that balding is a unattractiveness indicatior much in the sense that wrinking in women is, as a sign of aging (even though modern life has made it a young man's problem anyways), but not as some sort of super unhealthy syndrome like klinefelter's syndrome or sh*t like that.


As to the sh*t thing: Modern men are smearing piss on their scalp nowadays, isn't it great how everything comes full circle

Egyptian priest not only shaved their head but also plugged their eyebrows, beard and the rest of the bodyhair..they surely didnt do this to attract women. And thus you cant assume that having no hair or having no eyebrows were attractive at this point.

The same goes for samurais. Just bc warriors shaved their hair like this for some retarded reasons doesnt mean it was a sign of beauty.

Our perception of beauty basically hasnt change since the stoneage. The only thing that slightly various is the perception of bodyweight - in hungry times fat women were perceived as more attractive for obvious reasons and vice versa.

Everything else, the face, body ratio etc hasnt changed since the stoneage. Man 5.000 years ago got a boner for the same reasons we do today, a nice face, a nice body. Women got wet for the handsome hunter with big shoulders and small waist.

And why is that? Body is understable (good proportions are somehow affect pregnancy for women, a big guy can better protect you, hunt etc)..but why face? Why are we attracted to high cheekbones, a nice jawline, nice shaped eyes? Noone is better at hunting just bc you have high cheekbones.

For the same reason women are attracted to men with hair - its a marker of good genetics, hormonal profile and development. The feature itself is useless but it tells you a lot of the genetic mating qualities.


But yeah - for 80% of men is also a sign of ageing which also affects genetic mating qualities - sperm quality drops with every year after 20. Chances of autism and other disease for the kid raises.

But here is the thing. You know what is also a sign of ageing? Grey hair


But people are way less forgiving for hairloss then for grey hair - and im pretty sure that has a reason..


Maybe it just shows that your body is really sh*t at ageing and thus not only your hair suffers but also your cardio system, your sperm etc..maybe it signals the women that you maybe die at the next hunt at a heartattache while the grey fox over there might be older than you but still has some more years left..i dunno

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I'm 6' 2 and I've never considered it when it comes to women. Now you might say "Well that's because you're 6' 2" but that's not the reason: I was far too concerned with everything else about my appearance and trying not to say anything unintentionally awkward.

The thing about height as an advantage in the sexual market place is that it only gives you an advantage over your peer group and lesser; but not above.

That's how privilege works. It means having a head start and noticing it, because you can take it for granted.

You have a gift, it's fine. Nobody here is holding it against you. But you do look ridiculous pretending that it's meaningless. Imagine that somebody here won 1,000,000 in the lottery and pretended that it was meaningless -- everyone would find it annoying.

And if I had the choice between a lottery win tomorrow, and a 6'2 height with proportional frame, I'd obviously pick the latter. It's worth more.

If you're a balding dude with a dad bod, being tall just makes you a bit more desirable than other balding dudes with dad bods.

There's no insight from these extreme examples.

How's this: I've seen creepy bullheads with poor social skills. Their hair didn't save them.

See? It doesn't illuminate.

or more hilarious: height, as if your baldness was a better indicator of height than your...you know actual height

Height doesn't come from a single gene, but rather from multiple genes as well as environmental factors. If baldness correlates with short stature then that suggests that tall, bald men may be less likely to have tall offspring than tall, full-headed men.

The issue -- which you're having a hard time following for some reason -- is that baldness is already being shown to correlate with several markers of ill health, such as prostate cancer and heart disease. You're taking a limited view "prostate cancer and heart disease didn't matter in 50,000 BC !" when in fact it makes more sense to assess these correlations as likely the tip of the iceberg. Scientists have barely scratches the surface of these effects, the two correlations mentioned have only been known for a few years.

Meanwhile, as pointed out earlier, insulin resistance correlates with many issues not just heart disease and prostate cancer. For example, if baldness does increase the odds of insulin resistance, then the daughters of bald men may be more likely to develop polycystic ovarian syndrome, which lowers the odds of reproduction.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I need to learn statistics.

The article mentions IQ of 105, which I don't consider to be smart.
What I want to know is whether beauty is predictive of 125+ iq, in regards to a statement like this made in the article:
"If you want to estimate someone’s intelligence without giving them an IQ test, you would do just as well to base your estimate on their physical attractiveness as you would to base it on their years of education."

The people I know who have been successful at places like Harvard, Google, Bank of America, etc are typically above average in looks.

On the other hand, here is an amusing, albeit irrelevant, statistic showing that the fields with the smartest students by GRE score also have the least attractive professors:

http://www.businessinsider.com/sexy-professors-tend-to-be-dumber-chart-2013-9

Here's a more robust counterargument:
http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(14)00151-2/abstract
Theories in both evolutionary and social psychology suggest that a positive correlation should exist between facial attractiveness and general intelligence, and several empirical observations appear to corroborate this expectation. Using highly reliable measures of facial attractiveness and IQ in a large sample of identical and fraternal twins and their siblings, we found no evidence for a phenotypic correlation between these traits. Likewise, neither the genetic nor the environmental latent factor correlations were statistically significant. We supplemented our analyses of new data with a simple meta-analysis that found evidence of publication bias among past studies of the relationship between facial attractiveness and intelligence. In view of these results, we suggest that previously published reports may have overestimated the strength of the relationship and that the theoretical bases for the predicted attractiveness–intelligence correlation may need to be reconsidered.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Egyptian priest not only shaved their head but also plugged their eyebrows, beard and the rest of the bodyhair..they surely didnt do this to attract women. And thus you cant assume that having no hair or having no eyebrows were attractive at this point.

The same goes for samurais. Just bc warriors shaved their hair like this for some retarded reasons doesnt mean it was a sign of beauty.

Our perception of beauty basically hasnt change since the stoneage. The only thing that slightly various is the perception of bodyweight - in hungry times fat women were perceived as more attractive for obvious reasons and vice versa.

Everything else, the face, body ratio etc hasnt changed since the stoneage. Man 5.000 years ago got a boner for the same reasons we do today, a nice face, a nice body. Women got wet for the handsome hunter with big shoulders and small waist.

And why is that? Body is understable (good proportions are somehow affect pregnancy for women, a big guy can better protect you, hunt etc)..but why face? Why are we attracted to high cheekbones, a nice jawline, nice shaped eyes? Noone is better at hunting just bc you have high cheekbones.

For the same reason women are attracted to men with hair - its a marker of good genetics, hormonal profile and development. The feature itself is useless but it tells you a lot of the genetic mating qualities.


But yeah - for 80% of men is also a sign of ageing which also affects genetic mating qualities - sperm quality drops with every year after 20. Chances of autism and other disease for the kid raises.

But here is the thing. You know what is also a sign of ageing? Grey hair


But people are way less forgiving for hairloss then for grey hair - and im pretty sure that has a reason..


Maybe it just shows that your body is really sh*t at ageing and thus not only your hair suffers but also your cardio system, your sperm etc..maybe it signals the women that you maybe die at the next hunt at a heartattache while the grey fox over there might be older than you but still has some more years left..i dunno

Grey hair is a good counterexample.

There's a beauty product called "touch of grey".

Does anybody ever ask their barber for "a touch of bald"?

No, nobody ever asks for that.

 

[rclark]

Grey hair is a good counterexample.

There's a beauty product called "touch of grey".

Does anybody ever ask their barber for "a touch of bald"?

No, nobody ever asks for that.

What? I just asked for that. Isn't that the latest trend.

LOL. I actually DO use Touch of Grey. In fact, they even make shampoo/conditioner with that
in it.

And, I'm going to start dying my beard as well. A girl called me SANTA CLAUS. I'm like "damn b**ch!"

 

[Timii]

That's how privilege works. It means having a head start and noticing it, because you can take it for granted.

You have a gift, it's fine. Nobody here is holding it against you. But you do look ridiculous pretending that it's meaningless. Imagine that somebody here won 1,000,000 in the lottery and pretended that it was meaningless -- everyone would find it annoying.

And if I had the choice between a lottery win tomorrow, and a 6'2 height with proportional frame, I'd obviously pick the latter. It's worth more.

.

Afro, you talk as if being 5' 11 was an aesthetic flaw. I'm 5' 11 myself. It's not the most attractive height, but at least I'm far from being the shortest guy in the room.

 

[Timii]

@Afro_Vacancy I just find it kind of fascinating how you people in America perceive things a bit differently than here in Europe. I'm still wating to hear a German talking about jaws, height and similar things. Yes, a strong jaw is always going to make a man more attractive, but the first time I realised this was when I joined this forum and not by hearing about that somewhere. I've never heard an European talking about how strong jaws are attractive. Although my peers do actually care about being tall and girls find short stature rather unattractive , you seem to assume that the taller you are the more attractive you look, if you aren't abnormally tall. Well, a guy in my class is 6' 5, I don't think girls throw themselves at him and he has perfect hair, olive skin, deep voice and green eyes , but despite this his girlfriend is not particularly hot. Maybe I'm on That Guy's side, I mean, yes, when you' re tall people like you somehow. But it's not that vital. And again it may be possible that you americans value height more than in Europe similarly as for jaws. I think the concept behind strong jaws is more predominant in the USA. People on a european forum I visited back in the days didn't even seem to be impressed by Ian Somerhalder's jaw. I mean , yes, obviously girls love that, but possibly less than american girls. This is just my impression which obviously could be wrong, I' m not denying that. As for the guy in my example above, yes, he's tall, but he offers other positive traits too , like being funny, being handsome and so on.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Afro, you talk as if being 5' 11 was an aesthetic flaw. I'm 5' 11 myself. It's not the most attractive height, but at least I'm far from being the shortest guy in the room.

I'm 5'11 with a Nw2. I'd rather be 6'1 than a NW1. I agree that it's not my problem, it's not my strength either.

@Afro_Vacancy I just find it kind of fascinating how you people in America perceive things a bit differently than here in Europe. I'm still wating to hear a German talking about jaws, height and similar things. Yes, a strong jaw is always going to make a man more attractive, but the first time I realised this was when I joined this forum and not by hearing about that somewhere. I've never heard an European talking about how strong jaws are attractive. Although my peers do actually care about being tall and girls find short stature rather unattractive , you seem to assume that the taller you are the more attractive you look, if you aren't abnormally tall. Well, a guy in my class is 6' 5, I don't think girls throw themselves at him and he has perfect hair, olive skin, deep voice and green eyes , but despite this his girlfriend is not particularly hot. Maybe I'm on That Guy's side, I mean, yes, when you' re tall people like you somehow. But it's not that vital. And again it may be possible that you americans value height more than in Europe similarly as for jaws. I think the concept behind strong jaws is more predominant in the USA. People on a european forum I visited back in the days didn't even seem to be impressed by Ian Somerhalder's jaw. I mean , yes, obviously girls love that, but possibly less than american girls. This is just my impression which obviously could be wrong, I' m not denying that. As for the guy in my example above, yes, he's tall, but he offers other positive traits too , like being funny, being handsome and so on.

I don't represent America, and you don't represent Europe.

Most people, in general, don't think at all about looks to the level of detail that people on this forum do. It's mostly a subconscious process with the general population, with some focus on weight, muscle, clothes, and hairstyle, but very little on other things. And you know, for all the talk about Europeans not caring about looks, when I've been there the gyms have been packed, and the women have been well-dressed and with carefully placed makeup.

Others on the mainstream internet often mock lookism and other sites similar to this community for focusing on philtrums, etc. It's not a normal thing to do anywhere. The obsession with understanding is a coping mechanism emerging from our poor social station in life, we try and understand why we failed.

I don't claim that height buys everything, only that it's very valuable. Similarly there are men with fantastic hair who don't do well with women. There is no one trait that you can have that will buy everything.

Separately, 6'5 might well be too tall. I'm not sure where the threshold is, and it might vary from country to country and woman to woman, but 6'5 is borderline.

 

[Chromedome1990]

Hahaha I'm 5'11 and I'm far from blue pill; just not a bitter incel like you.

Don't get cocky, if you were short you'd probably hang yourself.

 

[CaptainForehead]

Grey hair is a good counterexample.

There's a beauty product called "touch of grey".

Does anybody ever ask their barber for "a touch of bald"?

No, nobody ever asks for that.

Wellllllll.....people do get the reverse NW6 haircut. Hair on top, bald on the sides... a "touch of bald".

 

[That Guy]

That's how privilege works. It means having a head start and noticing it, because you can take it for granted.

You have a gift, it's fine. Nobody here is holding it against you. But you do look ridiculous pretending that it's meaningless. Imagine that somebody here won 1,000,000 in the lottery and pretended that it was meaningless -- everyone would find it annoying.

I think it's a fair guess at this point you would say you are short?

I've not once said it's "meaningless" I've said it's not as big a deal as people want it to be, and I stand by that.

There's no insight from these extreme examples.

How's this: I've seen creepy bullheads with poor social skills. Their hair didn't save them.

See? It doesn't illuminate.

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

The point that I have made is that being tall is not going to put you in a whole other league; it simply makes you better within your own.

If what you are suggesting were really such a vital thing that gives you a tremendous advantage, we'd all being see ugly, rat-faced or at least really average dudes with attractive women just because they're tall and we'd see them often. But we don't.

These are not "extreme" examples, I don't know how you'd call "balding dudes with dad bods" "extreme" when they are literally everywhere.

I'm sorry man, but you've not provided anything for evidence beside "Women say they want height" and no one said they didn't, but what I don't believe and you haven't demonstrated otherwise, is that this can make up for any shortcomings in appearance.

Sorry, but I don't buy it that any of these famous men that make all the women wet would suddenly stop doing so if those women found out those guys were under six feet.

 

[CaptainForehead]

And if I had the choice between a lottery win tomorrow, and a 6'2 height with proportional frame, I'd obviously pick the latter. It's worth more.

It's crazy, the value of 3 meager inches in height.

 

[Saulus]

It's crazy, the value of 3 meager inches in height.

If i had to choose between 1 mio dollar or eternal norwood 1 without any medication id always pick hair